Longevity / Healthspan Science Needs Patience, Proof, and Access
Breakthrough medicine is rarely born from certainty. It comes from persistence, failed assumptions, careful validation, and teams willing to follow the data when biology refuses to behave simply.
Longevity / Healthspan Science Needs Patience, Proof, and Access Transcript
[music] [music] Welcome to Beyond Longevity, the podcast that explores not just how we age, but how we can build a longer, healthier [music] future for ourselves. Very few scientists [music] ever create a medicine that changes the way millions of people are treated. [music] Today's guest has done it twice. Dr. Sandep Duga was one of the scientists behind Zetia and Vtorin, two medicines that transformed cholesterol management and have been prescribed to millions [music] of patients worldwide. More than two decades later, Azetto remains the only approved medicine of its kind, lowering cholesterol by blocking [music] its absorption in the intestine. Within pharmaceutical research, Dr. Duga is widely respected [music] and very well known for those achievements. Outside those circles, however, his name is far less [music] wellknown. Today, Dr. Dug's focus has shifted from treating disease [music] to helping people stay healthier for longer. He is co-founder and chief scientific officer of Blue Oak Neutrauticals where he is applying decades of drug discovery experience to mitochondrial science [music] and health span. Rather than spending another decade or more navigating the traditional pharmaceutical pathway, he chose a different route. Developing an intervention that could reach millions
intervention that could reach millions of people much sooner while remaining scientifically rigorous, affordable, and accessible to those who [music] need it most. His work has also been recognized internationally. [music] Blue Oak is one of just 40 teams selected from more than 600 applicants in the $ 101 million X-P prize health span competition, one of the world's most ambitious efforts to transform the way we think about [music] aging and healthy longevity. In this conversation, we talk about what it really takes to discover [music] a medicine, why so many promising drug candidates fail, what artificial intelligence can [music] and cannot do for drug discovery, why Dr. Duga believes medicine has become too reductionist, and why mitochondria may play a far more central role in human health than many people realize. Hi, Dr. Sandi. Thank you so much for joining me on Beyond Longevity today. I have to start by saying this because it's quite extraordinary. Most pharmaceutical scientists spend their entire careers hoping to contribute to one successful medicine. You helped invent not one but two blockbuster medicines, Zetia and Vtorin, that went on to reach millions of patients around the world. For listeners who may not know these medicines, though I'm surprised if there
medicines, though I'm surprised if there are any that don't know them, Zetia is a Zettoi, a cholesterol-lowering drug that works differently from statins. Instead of mainly targeting cholesterol production in the liver, it helps reduce cholesterol absorption in the intestine. Hope I got that right so far. [laughter] Y and Vtorin then combined zettoide with Simva statatin a statin sort of in one treatment. Have I gotten that correct? As a completely non-medical person, you have it right on the dot. Does it ever feel surreal to you that something which once existed only as an idea in a lab and in your head ended up becoming a medicine used by so many people? Nobody's asked me that question before. So Daphna, that's me. By the way, uh let me also say this that I was part of an amazing group of scientists that led to ZDES and to VTOR. So while I was involved in it from the start, it really takes a team to get the process out there. So I just want your audience to appreciate that this is was a a group of amazing scientists committed who really made this happen. to your question you know I never thought about it that way
know I never thought about it that way because as a scientist you are very much focused to objective data set and suralism doesn't quite cross our brain but yeah now that you mentioned it was not that at that moment but I think back about it that and you actually also measured it very well that said that it has potentially and hopefully has helped many people out there. To me that's its blockbuster status to be measured and the many many people it has helped. So yeah it feels good. I do meet every now and then people who are on Zedia and it still brings me back with humility to the area that you've done something that has helping people. You're being very humble about it. Yes, you certainly helped quite a number of people. But tell me, before Zetia became Zetia, where did the story begin? What problem were you trying to solve? Or were you trying to solve a problem? How did it all come about? In most of science, it doesn't follow a straight linear path. One of the best things we can do when we do science is be observant and see where is the data leading us. Okay. Science has a clear objective honesty streak to it. You need to follow
honesty streak to it. You need to follow it. Zedia came about more through diligent analysis of data combined with serendipity combined with scientists who were willing to go to a place that nobody's gone before. These are the days of the statins. While everybody was trying to stop your body from making cholesterol, people didn't know how your body absorbed cholesterol. And it was not a question we asked in the beginning. But given our data, soon we started to ask the question, yes, I can stop your body from making cholesterol. What about the cholesterol you absorb? That led to a fundamental question. How can one ignore that component of cholesterol getting into your body? And that's what Zedia is was the first and is the currently the only therapeutic out there that stops your body from absorbing cholesterol. So the idea was to lower cholesterol. But as science went on, we got the data. It led to the question of how do you stop the body from cholesterol? Then the team together figured out what was the process and Zedia stops that process. I want to talk a little bit more about that process cuz I just find it so interesting. What does it feel like when you're in the lab and you're working on something? You know, at what point do
something? You know, at what point do you think, "Oh my gosh, this is something really revolutionary and incredible." Do you start off trying to do something revolutionary and incredible or does it just happen? We always try to do something meaningful that our process and methods is contributing to the all the knowledge about science and through that we are trying to address a problem. Now sometimes you find a solution that's revolutionary or you find a problem that is never been thought of. Hence your solution becomes revolutionary. We are so close to the process of doing it. It's often not what we think about that hey will this be revolutionary? It almost becomes a quest to answer a question and they say yeah we got to figure this out. This is an important question. This is relevant and critical. And that's what we do. And the team moves on from data to data till one day the picture becomes clear and then you see what you have. Let me ask you about the other side of the coin cuz I think every successful medicine has a moment where maybe you think, "Oh, this is a waste of time. This isn't going to make it." What was the biggest hurdle that you had within the process? Was there ever a moment when you thought, "No, it's a lovely
when you thought, "No, it's a lovely idea, but it's not going anywhere." Oh, doubt is not occasional. It's often. Oh, you come back and you wake up in the morning and say, "Uh, where am I going? Where is this leading?" But at those moments you go back to the idea of is this question important to be answered not knowing how this will contribute to the whole thing and you just answer that question that leads to three new ones then you pick the next ones to ask of worship. Oh, so doubt is constantly there where you're saying, "Am I even asking the right question because you're out in frontier land where nobody's done a a lot what you're doing?" And you always say, "Well, first, if nobody's done it, why haven't they done it? And if it is to be done, is the process I'm following the right way to do it?"because there's no instruction sheet that this comes with, right? So, you are on by the seat of your pants. But if you have good colleagues, good scientists, and you're working together, that's how you solve the problem. By always realizing that perhaps if this is a bad start, you are comfortable enough to come back
to come back and ask the question a different way. Right? So part of science is a requirement of humility of your own limitations that you may not have asked the right question and you've got to admit that you have not and you come back and say okay if that is not what is the right question or perhaps a better question to answer. So yeah, it's a daily life of scientists, right? You're always in frontier land not knowing where the road is going to lead you which I guess makes it exciting. Yes. If it would be a simple process, everybody would be doing it. It would be boring. You put it very well. It would be boring and and we live on the edge of excitement. Yes. So when you ask the question and you've asked the question and then one day you get a data set you are on top of the world for that day and then the next day you're way back down again. If you had to discover Zitia today with AI and computational biology and these massive data sets and everything we now know, do you think the whole journey would look completely different or do you think the hardest parts of drug discovery are still the same? So I think that the hardest part of drug discovery are pretty much the same because the human body has not changed.
because the human body has not changed. We are speaking about a disease that is resident in a dynamic system. It's not static. Our bodies are constantly changing, adapting, evolving. When a disease takes hold, it's adapting. It's not normal anymore. Each one of us is a unique individual, right? Close to 8 billion of us. There's not a duplicate Daphna out there. Thank goodness for that. [laughter] And so in a good way. But what I'm trying to say is that it's hard for systems to project dynamic changes that are due to a lot of things we do. when you eat, how you sleep, where you live, your family environment, your friend environment, your professional environment, your genetics, your et all these combined to make you who you are, give you the health you have and respond to challenges that your body faces. That's the issue we're trying to deal with. It's the dynamic component that I think would be very hard. So AI machine learning can take the prior data and tell us how to get to the starting point perhaps sooner, maybe
starting point perhaps sooner, maybe with better tools, maybe with better questions. But the experimentation, the assessments still have to go the way it is. Now I'm may say something that maybe in this day and age is politically incorrect so you can scrub it off. No, go for it. Is saying that a gestational period of pregnancy is nine months, right? I cannot have nine women and combine their resources to have a baby in one month. It just doesn't work. The processes of health, our human dynamics are evolutionarily ingrained in our system. That is how it is. If you cut yourself, I cannot stop you from bleeding or feeling pain. You will do it. And thank goodness for that. We still need human brains to really look at data but at the end time machine learning can help us analyze it from perspectives we have not been able to do before. So it clearly has a role but can it do it where you push a button and alas therapeutic? Uh I don't think so. You promised me something really like out there. This was not out there. Come on. I really want you to give me something out there. This was ah the majority of normal thinking people will agree with you. So you've got to try a bit harder to sort of
try a bit harder to sort of harder shock me and the listeners. Yeah. Well, on this one I can't because unfortunately good health and our ability to address health will be helped by technology. It is being helped by technology. But the human brain and an analytics still have a role. Ephemeral thinking I mean the whole idea is at that point putting together something and having a brain wave is something humans can do. I guess AI can support researchers in the administrative work. Analytics. So to me I call it analytical intelligence not artificial intelligence. That's it. And it's what it is is machine learning. I can look at data sets from different perspectives. I can look patterns. I can understand patterns better. I can query and say what about this? What about that? Absolutely. It has significant power in doing that. And there's still a big difference with in vitro and in vivo results. Oh yes. I think even for your drug discovery, I think your in vitro results were very different to your invivo results, were they not? They're always because asking a question to a reductionist process. Okay. Gives
to a reductionist process. Okay. Gives you guidance but does not give you the understanding of a system process. I can take someone's kidney cells or a kidney cell and study it because it exists by itself. But in a body that kidney exists in connection with the heart and the liver and the rest of the body which are constantly communicating and so as so correct that the idea that in vitro or Xvivo can analyze things. No, I mean they can guide me towards which way to go. Even today even drug discovery preclinical studies prove nothing. It simply tells me perhaps I have something that I should evaluate in humans. Absolutely. Most promising drug candidates never become medicine for whatever reason. Is there a common reason that usually kills them? Yes, it is our obsessiveness to look for efficacy. When we do our lot of our studies whether we are researchers or investors we look at hey this particular therapeutic works to do this. The real
therapeutic works to do this. The real challenge of drug discovery and development is the other 90%. We focus so much on efficacy we forget that the disease exists in a system. I cannot fix your kidney and kill your heart. It does not work. So to make it simple, the process has become reductionist. And we're always striving to make it simpler and more reductionist. It won't work. If you go back into drug discovery statistics, some of the most prolific period of drug development was back in the 60s and 70s where we studied whole systems. What we do often now is reduce them down to pathways. Okay? And that's true even in our therapeutics approaches, right? If you are not well, you go to your internist for the primary medical care. But the moment they say, well, your heart needs an attention, they go send you to the cardiologist. If it's the kidney, you end up at the nefrologist. So even in our medical practice, we are managing disease. We're not promoting health. A cardiologist will treat your heart but does not pay a lot of attention what else could be going on. So you're hopping from practitioners
on. So you're hopping from practitioners to practitioners trying to get each part of your body fixed. So what we have done is approaching drug development the same way. If I can fix your tumor but destroy the rest of the body, what good does it do? And we have forgotten that the two essential pillars of health are exercise and nutrition and we rarely speak about it. So my thinking this is my thought that for us to get healthy we have to start going back to areas of understanding system biology. understanding that reducing the human body to its part may help you with that part but does it help the whole body and the evidence is coming around that probably not. Yeah. So we before we move into what you are doing now to help all that, I just want to just pull out a little bit because you have already achieved what most pharmaceutical scientists can only dream of. to developed not just one but two medicines that reached millions of patients and many people might have expected you to spend the rest of your career continuing to do so you know to stay within the pharma industry instead
stay within the pharma industry instead you turned your attention to one of the biggest questions in medicine what I think is one of the biggest questions in medicine which is can we actually target the biology of aging itself. What made you think this is a problem I want to spend the next chapter of my life solving? Uh DA to be honest that's now how I got into this. As they say it's the curiosity that killed the cat, right? I happened upon some data in 2009 that's introduced me to the world of mitochondria and to the world of energy and to the world of evolutionary biology and it shocked me that in 2010 and 11 we had not asked some fundamental questions. Remember the whole story about Zedia? Nobody had asked the question how do you absorb cholesterol? All right. The basic question becomes how do you make more energy? Sure you eat your food, you do all these things but what happens? How do you make that into energy? And if energy is the existential reason right of our survival because without energy there is
survival because without energy there is no life. And so as that story started to come in front of me it became very clear to me that health and energy are linked. And it's not my determination. It's everybody accepts that. yet nobody's addressing it right and that is a ultimate system approach a good colleague and I call him friend Bob Navio others talk about we have a capacity to heal ourselves so if you think about it aging health perhaps is our ability losing our ability to heal ourselves right it if we gave ourselves that ability Would we prevent disease? And if you look at it, aging is a disease or is a condition that evolves. So if you come down to the note of it, the question becomes is that and people have reported it's not others have reported that yes, exercise improves health, improves aging, good nutrition improves health, improves aging. tens and hundreds of research supporting it. How does it happen? Was the argument and that all comes down to your mitochondria and the food. So to your question, was I going after aging? Not specifically.
after aging? Not specifically. What I was going after is understanding how energy plays the quintessential central role in human health and if there's a way for us to promote energy in humans, would we be healthier? And the answer over 17 years has been absolutely yes, which is not surprising because we are energy beings, right? The difference where colleagues at Colombia Martin Peard put it very well. The difference between a dead body and a living body is that the living body has energy. The the dead body has all the biological structures but doesn't have energy to do anything with it. So that's how it got started and it became an idea as you said that led to questions that okay if exercise is good for you to make more energy because it make mitochondria well how does this happen 2010 nobody could tell me and I said how can we not have an answer to the most fundamental question of how the body makes mitochondria when you exercise cuz imagine mitochondria is in every cell of your body. Okay, except the red blood cell. But a cell will not die till the mitochondria decides. It is the one
the mitochondria decides. It is the one thing that we share with every species on planet earth including plants. So it has to be important. And if the one way we generate it is exercise, how could we not know the answer to that question? So that became my quest. And in 2014, we figured out the answer. As they say, I'll misquote him, but I'll try it anyhow. Volater said, "No problem can withstand the sustained thinking of a human mind." Now, that's arrogant. That's hubris. But given time, we have the capacity to figure out solutions as long as we stay true to the question that we're asking. So going back to your question, so aging and health go hand in hand. I can live 100 years, but if I'm in an ICU, that's not life. So we prefer to say instead of aging, let's call health spare. fair because now I can measure it measuring health span individually that you're living to be 80 and you can still walk down the stairs, you can go for a hike and etc etc. So let's call a spade here. You are now co-founder of Blue Oak Neutruticals which as you said focuses on
which as you said focuses on mitochondrial science and health span. What is your overall goal that you're trying to achieve with Blue Oak? And is there just one goal or do you have various? We figured out the internal mechanism how exercise leads to mitochondria. Now I said to you earlier there are two pillars to good health energy and nut exercise and nutrition. Okay. So what I will say to you now is mainly focused on the mitochondria side and I want all your audiences to always keep in mind that nutrition is still a very relevant important part of your health. Okay. What we have developed is not a magic pill. It is something that will help you but you cannot ignore the other part is good nutrition. So coming back to the idea of the exercise relating to mitochondria we figured out that there's a specific natural product epicin that mimics this and we've been studying it now for 14 years. A lot of colleagues again I speak with you but there are tens of colleagues of mine who have been part of this journey with me. So I want to acknowledge their contribution. I want to acknowledge their wisdom and etc. So
to acknowledge their wisdom and etc. So think of me as a spokesperson for all these people for the last 16 17 years. But the goal here really comes to simple that if I can supplement your mitochondria. Am I giving this energy back to your system for your body then to do what it needs and can do best better than anybody else. All I'm giving it are the resources. Correct? So if you were to ask any clinician, hey, if your patient could exercise, would it benefit them? The universal answer is yes. So all we're doing in the background is giving the body this without them having to exercise because they can't. Fair. So what is my goal or our goal at Blue Oak? our all my team at Blue Oak I mean amazing group of people dedicated people is to really educate introduce and make this a possibility where it is globally available. So what we did was founded a public benefit corporation with the idea that we need to be a sustainable business but we also want to be having a product that people have access and they can afford. If mitochondria is true to health, its application is agnostic to
health, its application is agnostic to the condition. And so far in so many human studies, that's exactly what we're seeing. So now you have something that is very safe cuz it's been part of the human diet for 5, 000 years and has only one role to supplement your mitochondria level and then let the body do the rest. And in some cases you'll see an effect in eight weeks, sometimes it takes three months and that depends on you and your condition and other things that affect your health in your life which we cannot touch. So it's a grand idea, a grand goal and we are approaching three years into it. So, we're going to start a third year this August and we're very excited that we are moving forward sometimes a little slow because of I get impatient but nonetheless moving along methodically and purposefully but always still validating everything through scientific foundations and credibility to say how can we do this? How can we move forward? So that's our goal is to see if we can make people healthy. There are a few things I want to pick up but I have to do it one by one. You've mentioned epicin and there's also
mentioned epicin and there's also mitochondrial biogenesis. A lot of people listening to us are not scientists. They are in the longevity field. They're either interested or investors or whatever. Just explain to them what exactly that is. And also you mentioned that that it's a mimemetic drug or or supplement. Now you've said it's for people who can't exercise. Now when people hear that, they think fantastic. I'm going to sit on my sofa, pop some pills, and I'm going to grow muscles. That isn't really what it is, is it? No. just explain so that everybody is on the same page and really understands the incredible effect these neutrauticals have on the body that you've developed. It's so much well it's it's not about growing muscle. So fundamentally you need mitochondria to function. Okay, I can't lift my hand. I can't move my hand. You can't listen to me etc. Unless the mitochondria in those specific area or organs of or tissue of your body make the energy for you to do it. So they make energy 24 / 7 to keep you alive. They maintain your body temperature. They do everything, not just build muscle. Okay? And let me redefine exercise. Exercise is not just going to the gym. Exercise is also having a good sleep. Believe it or not,
having a good sleep. Believe it or not, when you're sleeping in your deep sleep, RE sleep cycle, your brain is hyperactive. It's actually using a lot of energy. So much so that the rest of your body is in paralysis. Your physical body is in paralysis. So good sleep is brain exercise. Reading is exercise. Okay? Music makes your brain exercise. So exercise is not equal to going to the gym. Yes, that's part of it. So when you exercise your body systemically by doing all these things, having a good sleep, physical workout, resting, etc., you make yourself healthy. And each tissue bed based on its role will produce the mitochondria it needs. As we age, after age 21, your inherent ability to make that mitochondria starts to go down. And the primary reason is your body stops growing. So in your growth phase, consider your growth phase as your internal exercise for which the body needs to make energy. And so it is geared to making its energy. As you age 21, you stop growing. And from then on, every decade, you lose 10 15% of your mitochondrial content. And that's aging. That's just normal. Okay? If you eat bad food, you lose more mitochondria. If you don't exercise regularly, you lose
don't exercise regularly, you lose mitochondria. If you don't sleep well, you lose mitochondria. So from then on, you go downhill. And the slope of that downhill is based not just on your time aging but your lifestyle and everything else. Okay? So everybody has this quote unquote exercise deficit. And if you do not supplement that you will see the downward sire. What we do is help you get to the place where you can add this as supplement but cannot replace the other things you do. It's simply like saying all I need is protein. No, you need protein and you need fiber and you need carbs. You need the whole diet. A balanced diet. Same thing. If you take the supplement, it'll help you. But doesn't mean you be a couch potato. But what this can do is give you the energy. Now if you're not well for example if you're coming out of surgery and you are in bed for six weeks or two weeks and you cannot exercise then at least to some extent this will continue to support your system because we also have things like disuse atrophy and definitely I can I mean this could be a three-hour conversation. So what I'm trying to say to people and
So what I'm trying to say to people and to you is that this is from our studies, our validation is a good way to supplement the mitochondria that you're losing, but in of itself is not sufficient. Okay? It's not just take this and rest is all hunky dory. No. And when you speak about recreation, so biogenesis means the number of mitochondria per cell goes down as you age. And when you exercise or take the supplement, it starts to bring it back to where it should be. So your cells have the energy to function better. You're being as always very humble about all your work and all your research. And I really want to shine a light on something that I personally found very very impressive because you spent much of your career developing prescription medicines through the traditional you know pharmaceutical pathways but with your mitochondrial work with blue oak you've taken a different route by making it a neutrautical which many listeners may not know but there is a big difference between the pathways of prescription medicine and neutrauticals and supplements. Pharmaceuticals have long regulatory pathways. Clinical trials are very very expensive. A neutrautical can reach
expensive. A neutrautical can reach people much faster because it sits outside the drug approval system. And I believe the reason for you doing that is because you wanted as many people as possible to have access to that. Was that a scientific decision, a commercial decision, a philosophical decision about, you know, equality of access? What was your reason for doing it that way? Great question. The answer is all of the above. And I'll tell you why. We started this whole process to really get into a therapeutic mode. So we have done phase one clinical trials. So we have followed this through the rigor of what would be needed for a regulatory pharmaceutical product. Okay. What hit me was that this product is applicable not to one disease but to health itself. Okay. So how do you define health in a regulatory term? You cannot. Right? So patients that have taken this span everything from diabetics with cardiomyopathy to musculardrophe to atexia etc etc. Each is a defined disease. Okay. So if I were to get approval I would
So if I were to get approval I would have to do 100 plus clinical trials in each indication to get it approved. Now you're talking of hundreds of millions of dollars and then somebody has to pay for it and at the end it's the patient that does pay for it. Fair? And it would take me the next 30 years or 50 years to finish all of those studies. But often those studies they're not done just for efficacy but they're also done to define what's the safety profile of the drug. Right? So when I do a bigger trial I can understand what are the side effects. Now in this situation I don't have any side effect issues. So remember I told you a while ago it's that 90% that people don't focus on. Well I already have that answer. Okay. I'm fortunate that 90% of what we call offtarget issues I have an answer. So I can focus on the 10% of the issue. But then there are multiple 10%. But if I have safety, I can do a in life evaluation and patience because I know I won't hurt them. The worst that would happen is it won't work. So what we decided to do are we call structure function studies and they are studies we do in clinical settings and we try to understand what are the parameters that we should look
are the parameters that we should look for in patients in each subgroup to say hey they are responding to the drug or to the neutrautical. Now I know that safety is not an issue. I have to demonstrate efficacy and I can go to sub populations and that's what we're doing. We're continuously doing this structures. So our approach is not like spaghetti throw it on the wall and see what sticks. Our approach is to still go methodically from patient but now we have cut the cost down to tens of thousands and our readout down to 3 to 6 months. So if we do that, we can continue to expand this into patients faster, cheaper. And so what we did was we put this whole thing in what in the US called the public benefit corporation. We are self-funded. We are funded by angels to continuously keep this product accessible and affordable. And so the rigor of science is still there. Our manufacturing is to the pharmaceutical grade. Okay. We have done our initial clinical studies to show exposure etc in normal humans that would be required. So, we've done all of that and since we're not looking for an approval by the FDA, we can do a structure function study and
can do a structure function study and clinicians themselves who are independent of us can make a determination whether this would work or not for their patients. So it came around to me that coming from a pharmaceutical world, I can do this and I will have significant financial returns or I can do this uh the other way where I can have both a successful business but really starting to get to patients. So we're looking to launch it in Mexico, UK after 2 years in the US. So we also validated this process for 2 years in the US post launch and now we feel that discovery. So we just came to UK London at the IPM conference and the idea here is to start to have conversations with foundations, patient groups, clinicians and say look let's together figure out whether it's relevant to you knowing that safety will not be an issue. So that's the kind of pathway we're trying to follow. And I know you're not big on blowing your own trumpets or as they say in the US blowing your own hall. But I do know that you also give the supplements to people at cost for those where the clinician says they can't afford it. Yes, we do. didn't want to be remiss in mentioning that because the problem in I guess the supplement
the problem in I guess the supplement industry as a whole and the longevity field as a whole is often that it's become very very commercial. So wanted to throw that out. Well, thank you and and we are very very much committed to that and that's why we are very clear in our mandate to everybody that look we want to be sustainable business because if we are not then everybody loses. So we need to be sustainable business. We need to still pay our salaries to our employees which they deserve. They deserve whatever it is. But our main goal really Daphne is to keep dropping the price as we increase our market and that's it is actually decrease the price. So the more and more people across the globe I mean if you think about it it's not just the western world, South Asia, Africa, Central America. I mean, even in my backyard and even in your backyard, there are people who can help and can't afford. Everybody assumes that if you're in the US, you're a millionaire. No, you're not. Okay? We have our underserved populations. So that's the thing and that's why just to give it to your audience, I've had some great support and we're focused on energy and we've started an annual series of symposiums. The first one was at UC San Francisco. Okay, these are
at UC San Francisco. Okay, these are non-commercial. We fund it to really educate people and we have had great support from researchers. This year we are doing it the New York Academy of Sciences. It's on 11th of November. If your audience is interested, you have some stellar speakers who are going to be talking about energy. And one of the areas we're starting to focus on is mental health in modern world is such a scourge that is afflicting everybody. And guess what? Your brain is 2% of your body weight and uses 20% of its energy. In our lifestyle, our systems are really putting a challenge on our brain. And we're very much focused on really seeing what we can do that is safe that is helpful to give brain back the energy it needs. You've mentioned paying salaries. in the very near future that might not be a problem at all for you anymore because today one of the projects you're involved in is the $ 11 million XPric Healthspan competition. For listeners who might not have heard of this, it's one of the world's most ambitious scientific competitions in aging. teams from around the world are competing to develop interventions that can meaningfully restore muscle
can meaningfully restore muscle cognitive functions and immune function in older adults and you've entered a team I think it's called new dimension from blue oak and congratulations you were selected as the top 40 right out of 600 already other than the 101 million which obviously is a fantastic reason why did you decide to enter this competition? Yeah, one of my reasons for that was I said so let me say this that we are ahead of the curve that competition is to develop something okay we already have it but one of the things that we wanted to get in is to really expand the visibility of what we're doing. Okay, for people to know. So it was more of a way for us to say to people, hey remember we have external validations. It's not just us saying we are what we're doing. We have independent reviewers telling us hey at least you are in the top 40. But I also have to say not everybody applied for the X-P prize right? So there are still people working on efforts that are also very very good. So to us it was another way of expanding not just accreditation of what we're
not just accreditation of what we're doing but to me defin money that comes in would help us with what it is but we are already on our way. So that was the reason we went in but we are way ahead and that process will play out for the next two to three years. We'll be all the way anyhow. Now with or without naming names that's up to you. Have you seen anyone else in the competition that really made you stop and think wow this is incredible? There's a lot of stuff that is going on that is absolutely mind-blowing. I mean people are talking about stem cells, people are talking about you know other ways to rejuvenate things. One thing I will tell you unabashedly is that I have not seen someone touching the process the way we are and there are two things to it. Number one, I always say that do not ignore safety and tolerability of a patient. So, let me give you one part of it. If you look back, Zetia is still the only cholesterol-lowering drug out there. It has no competition. Okay, there are five statins out there,
Okay, there are five statins out there, multiple blood pressure medication. Why is it that Zetia does not have a competition? And the primary reason is that no other competitor could match its safety. Not efficacy but safety. Zedia is incredibly safe because we designed it with a mode of action and distribution that is exquisitly hits the cholesterol part of it. Not to go into details here. So what I'm telling you is that safety is a great great important play in whatever you do. Go fast forward in my life. Here's epic again a unique mechanism that we discovered. Nobody knew it. And it is with using something that is incredibly safe. So to me if you combine the two we as a society and as analytics we focus so much hey it builds muscle we have to make sure that you don't hurt people what I am very comfortable to say that after 16 17 years of doing both clinical and preclinical research with our product it's incredibly safe so if I go out there and say how do I define somebody who do all of this that's why I
somebody who do all of this that's why I say to you I feel that from the mechanism of action I have not seen something that taps into the fundamental mechanism how you make mitochondria and on top of that have something that is so safe to do it and if you take the two together I have looked Ron Daphne, I would say with my best of humility, I haven't found one. And I'm looking because you have to have both. You cannot give it to a 2-year - old child and have their body suffer from the side effects of a therapy. It's not right. This is what we do because fundamentally it simply says if you can simply make your body feel like it's exercising and you get the benefits of it. I'm telling you what a note to finish on saying that I could have talked to you literally for hours and hours more. I do hope you come back on beyond longevity because I haven't even scratched the surface of what I wanted to ask you. I'd love to, Destiny. Absolutely. Thank you. I I take your word for it. You've said it now. It's, you know, [laughter] it's on record. So, yeah, definitely. Because there's so much more really that, you know, it's just incredible what we can talk about. And what is really rare about you is that you just have such a profound
have such a profound knowledge not just of the topic you been working in for years and years, but really you've seen it from all the angles and you've really been there and done it. You're at the peak of what you're doing and now you're trying to give back to society. That's the way I see it and I think that's how everyone should be once they've achieved it. Thank you for such kind words. But as I've said to you, what we are doing is still a part of what will keep you healthy. So I always want your audience to think that in some ways we're going to help them, but there's still other things they need to do. And it's a journey that continues because health, we have to move away from disease care to health care. We do not have health care. Okay? and and to me we'll discuss that exactly that next time we'll meet. Now before I let you go I have five rapid fire questions that I ask everyone so we'll do this too. Now what's the single best piece of advice you would give your younger self? Best piece of advice to my younger self with what I know now? Chase value. Value is sustainable. Chase value in everything you do. Chase value. Name one habit everyone should adopt for a longer healthier life.
a longer healthier life. Sleep well. It's your brain's Sleep. Sleep well. It's your brain's ability to recharge itself and it's your most critical system. Sleep. If you weren't in health and longevity science, what career would you have chosen? And by that I assume you mean healthcare. Yeah. Overall would you have become an actor or you know I don't know. No on that one I'm pretty boring. I knew from the get-go that this is it for me. It's healthcare or bust. Lucky for the rest of the world that you knew that's what you wanted to do. What micro do habit sort of five minute routine or small daily action yields outsized longevity benefits? means time with yourself, your self internal introspective just thinking about whether it be just reflecting us sitting meditating important very very important what's the craziest longevity myth you've encountered and is there any truth to it [laughter] I mean I may get into trouble for saying that but a a lot of supplements put together in a bottle that talk about longevity where they
that talk about longevity where they cannot specifically say what each one is contributing or how is it doing what is it doing. I I think it's just not just laughable. I think it's not just not fair. I'm not saying science should limit your usage of things, but you you need to understand some things about what you're doing, right? I mean, we do that with food, right? We do that with food. So, when we go and just pop supplements willy-nilly because we did a Google search and got an answer and and people who promote that, I I think should really go back and rethink about what it is that they're doing. Very true. Nothing controversial about that one because they're people at the end. If you're going to give people hope, give them the basis for that hope because nothing is worse than giving false hope to people. And especially when it comes to health, you know, giving somebody false hope, they win the lottery. Hey ho. Exactly. Yeah. Those are odds you play. But you know, well, somebody's coming and relying on you to do something. You have to be internally honest about what you're saying. I believe in that 100%. Me too. Very true. Listen, Tanny, thank you so much. This really, as I said, was just amazing. I had the best time and I'm [music] definitely going to hold you on your promise to come back.
promise to come back. Absolutely, Dav. and thank you for taking the time, [music] even your time. And and so as they say, everybody's time is precious. And so, thank you again. Thank you. A good friend of mine says, "To [music] be continued."100%. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining me on this episode of Beyond Longevity. Dr. Dugga's career reminds us that some of the biggest advances in medicine are made by people many of us never hear about. Millions of patients have benefited from medicines [music] he developed. And rather than treating that as the pinnacle of his career, Dr. Duger has chosen to take everything he has learned and [music] apply it to one of medicine's greatest remaining challenges, helping more people live longer in good health. Whether his current work ultimately proves to be another major breakthrough [music] remains to be seen, but with his track record and ambition, it is difficult for it not to be. [music] Dr. Duga is driven not simply by scientific curiosity, but by the belief that if something is genuinely improving health, it should reach as many people as possible as [music] quickly as possible and at a price people can afford. If you've enjoyed this conversation, please subscribe, leave a review, and share [music] this episode. Thank you for listening.
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Transcript auto-generated by YouTube. Verbatim — duplicates intentionally preserved.
Dr. Sundeep Dugar’s path from cholesterol medicines to healthspan work carries that lesson forward. The conversation moves from blockbuster drug discovery to mitochondria, epicatechin, artificial intelligence, and the harder question of how useful science reaches people affordably.
Modern drug discovery often starts with a target, but the body is a network. A compound can influence one pathway while creating consequences elsewhere. That is why efficacy without long-term context is incomplete.
Dugar’s critique is not anti-medicine. It is pro-whole-body thinking. Good science asks what improves function without creating a larger debt later.
Mitochondria help convert food and oxygen into usable cellular energy. As mitochondrial function declines, tissues can feel the difference: less capacity, slower recovery, lower resilience.
Epicatechin, a compound found in cocoa and other foods, is discussed as a nutraceutical approach to supporting mitochondrial biogenesis. The responsible frame is important. It is not a substitute for exercise, sleep, or nutrition. It is a possible support layered onto the fundamentals.
The nutraceutical route can move faster than the pharmaceutical pathway, but speed only matters if the science remains disciplined. Affordability, safety, and evidence must travel together.
That is the mature healthspan question. Not simply what can extend function, but what can do so safely, repeatedly, and for more than a privileged few.
"Healthspan science earns trust when ambition stays anchored to evidence."
"Drug discovery requires humility because human biology is interconnected."
"Mitochondrial health is central to energy, adaptation, and recovery."
"Nutraceutical approaches should complement the fundamentals, not replace them."
Treat mitochondrial support as a layered practice: movement, sleep, nutrition, then targeted additions where evidence supports them.
Be cautious with any product claim that sounds like a replacement for training or recovery.
Value access and affordability, but keep safety and proof at the center.
