Cold Exposure Testosterone: Timing and Tradeoffs | Vitruvian

Video·High Intensity Health·9 min read·September 16, 2024

A grounded look at cold plunge timing, hormone claims, recovery tradeoffs, and why contrast therapy may matter more than cold or heat alone.

Cold Before Training

Cold is not one protocol. Timing changes the signal. The same plunge can support recovery, sharpen presence, or interfere with the adaptation you came to build. That is why the first question is not only how cold, or how long. It is when.

Thomas Seager’s hormone story began outside the performance world. He was tracking male health labs after an elevated PSA, using regular ice baths while watching whether his prostate markers changed. His PSA moved from 7 to less than 2, which was the result he had set out to follow. Then another number drew attention. His testosterone came back at 1180 nanograms per deciliter, flagged high on the report.

That number alone could have been misread. A physician can suspect outside testosterone use when a result sits far above expectation, so Seager was sent for luteinizing hormone testing. Luteinizing hormone helps signal the body’s own testosterone production, and his result came back elevated at 8.9. In plain terms, the pattern pointed toward endogenous production, not a cream or injection. The body appeared to be making the signal itself.

This is where timing becomes the center of the conversation. Seager’s core claim is precise: cold after exercise can suppress the very training response many people want, while cold before exercise may prime a different hormonal environment. The distinction matters because cold is often treated as a single recovery tool. In practice, a plunge before lifting and a plunge after lifting can speak two different languages to the body.

The claim is promising, but it is not settled science. Seager points to older research, including a 1991 Japanese study, and to a growing set of personal lab reports sent by people who changed their protocol and saw testosterone rise. Those reports create a signal worth studying. They do not create a universal rule.

We treat that distinction with care. Case reports can guide curiosity, especially when they include before-and-after labs, but they cannot replace a modern clinical trial designed to test whether the effect repeats in otherwise normal human beings. Cold exposure deserves precision because precision protects the ritual. The goal is not to believe more. The goal is to observe better.

For the reader, the practical insight is calm and direct. If you are using cold to support training, place it with intention. Before movement, it may bring alertness, challenge, and a useful physiological signal. After movement, it may quiet inflammation so effectively that it also quiets the adaptation you trained for. Mastery begins with timing.

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that we are live we're almost there friends happy live we're almost there friends happy Sunday all right so we're going to talk Sunday all right so we're going to talk all about cold plunge therapy we have my all about cold plunge therapy we have my friend Tom Seager with us here he's the friend Tom Seager with us here he's the author of uncommon cold and the CEO of author of uncommon cold and the CEO of morosa Forge yeah that's right an morosa Forge yeah that's right an amazing I think by far the best ice bath amazing I think by far the best ice bath out on the market I mean I've had this out on the market I mean I've had this tool since 2021 it not only it's the tool since 2021 it not only it's the only coal plunge out there my friends only coal plunge out there my friends that makes ice and it has an ozonator that makes ice and it has an ozonator that filters water and keeps your water that filters water and keeps your water nice and clean but Tom today let's nice and clean but Tom today let's really dive into well first of all we really dive into well first of all we want to address some life questions when want to address some life questions when folks come on and so forth give folks folks come on and so forth give folks just a few minutes to get on um there's just a few minutes to get on um there's a lot of controversy I think people a lot of controversy I think people there's a lot of misconceptions about there's a lot of misconceptions about cold therapy even though uh cold cold therapy even though uh cold immersion I mean I would love to hear immersion I mean I would love to hear your perspective on the alma Pearl your perspective on the alma Pearl divers outside of Japan we can talk a divers outside of Japan we can talk a little bit more about that later but as little bit more about that later but as a tool to uh improve immune health and a tool to uh improve immune health and decrease inflammation and both of us decrease inflammation and both of us have found independent anecdotal

have found independent anecdotal benefits with regards to improving benefits with regards to improving testosterone and actually there's really testosterone and actually there's really good evidence now in the public in the good evidence now in the public in the peer-reviewed academic literature to peer-reviewed academic literature to suggest that uh cold immersions and Ice suggest that uh cold immersions and Ice baths and cold therapy can improve baths and cold therapy can improve testosterone levels so before we dive testosterone levels so before we dive into it Tom I just want to acknowledge into it Tom I just want to acknowledge our live viewers grateful that you're our live viewers grateful that you're here live on a Sunday my friends I would here live on a Sunday my friends I would love to know where you're from and love to know where you're from and anything related to cold immersions cold anything related to cold immersions cold plunge therapy ice bath therapy cold plunge therapy ice bath therapy cold showers any questions whatsoever there's showers any questions whatsoever there's a lot of controversy people think oh my a lot of controversy people think oh my gosh women shouldn't do this because gosh women shouldn't do this because it's gonna harm their hormones and what it's gonna harm their hormones and what if you have rods and all these different if you have rods and all these different conditions whatever cold emergent conditions whatever cold emergent therapy question you have we would love therapy question you have we would love to hear from you live to hear from you live so uh we have Rob from Toronto in the so uh we have Rob from Toronto in the house we have swamp Hawk who is always house we have swamp Hawk who is always here which is fantastic so um maybe here which is fantastic so um maybe let's start out with the hormone let's start out with the hormone conversation how did you get how did you conversation how did you get how did you discover that um taking regular ice discover that um taking regular ice baths in the Rosco Forge could improve baths in the Rosco Forge could improve your testosterone levels last time we your testosterone levels last time we talked was I think maybe a year ago it

talked was I think maybe a year ago it was last summer and a lot has happened was last summer and a lot has happened in a year but back then it was really in a year but back then it was really just me and this one study from 1991 for just me and this one study from 1991 for me it was a total accident I was really me it was a total accident I was really working on my prostate it was inflamed I working on my prostate it was inflamed I had a elevated PSA and I thought I'm not had a elevated PSA and I thought I'm not going to go through the allopathic going to go through the allopathic medicine route and they're just going to medicine route and they're just going to lead to a biopsy next thing you know lead to a biopsy next thing you know somebody's going to want to take my somebody's going to want to take my prostate out so I said I'm going to try prostate out so I said I'm going to try this with ice baths first so I'm getting this with ice baths first so I'm getting all my male Health Labs and sure enough all my male Health Labs and sure enough I brought my PSA down from 7 to let than I brought my PSA down from 7 to let than two I was really happy about that my two I was really happy about that my testosterone went through the roof like testosterone went through the roof like 1180 nanog per deck ler that was flagged 1180 nanog per deck ler that was flagged on my lab report as high and when you on my lab report as high and when you think at the time I was you know a think at the time I was you know a 53-year-old college professor was 53-year-old college professor was extraordinary well since I solved my PSA extraordinary well since I solved my PSA problem in my head I'm like now I can go problem in my head I'm like now I can go to the urologist now I'm going to get to the urologist now I'm going to get like a big pat on the back but I didn't like a big pat on the back but I didn't he's about the same age as me and he he's about the same age as me and he looked at me and he's like here's this looked at me and he's like here's this overweight college professor there's no overweight college professor there's no way he's got 1180 he's got be using a

way he's got 1180 he's got be using a cream or a shot or something he wanted cream or a shot or something he wanted one more test and that was luteinizing one more test and that was luteinizing hormone so I didn't know what it was at hormone so I didn't know what it was at he sent me back to the lab got the he sent me back to the lab got the lutenizing hormone sure enough came back lutenizing hormone sure enough came back elevated 8.9 so the urologist knows that elevated 8.9 so the urologist knows that this is just my exen exactly right now this is just my exen exactly right now we've never talked since like he had we've never talked since like he had zero curiosity about this that's so zero curiosity about this that's so weird but in the last year a lot of weird but in the last year a lot of people have really pushed back you know people have really pushed back you know that ice basss and cold plunge they have that ice basss and cold plunge they have taken off and some of the people in the taken off and some of the people in the social media influencing Health space social media influencing Health space have been so critical of ice bath have been so critical of ice bath particularly for testosterone because particularly for testosterone because they know that if you use ice baths in they know that if you use ice baths in the traditional way let's say you do a the traditional way let's say you do a workout you use ice baths because you workout you use ice baths because you want to reduce inflammation or delay it want to reduce inflammation or delay it onset muscle soreness it's going to onset muscle soreness it's going to bring your testosterone down and so bring your testosterone down and so they'll go on Instagram they'll say ice they'll go on Instagram they'll say ice baths don't don't help your testosterone baths don't don't help your testosterone it actually suppresses your testosterone it actually suppresses your testosterone and the thing is they're right if you do and the thing is they're right if you do the ice bath after your exercise the key

the ice bath after your exercise the key here is to preol the workout with the here is to preol the workout with the ice bath this is what raises luteinizing ice bath this is what raises luteinizing hormone this is what raises hormone this is what raises testosterone well and since you and I testosterone well and since you and I talked a bunch of people had written to talked a bunch of people had written to me and they said I saw your article I me and they said I saw your article I listened to what Joe Rogan said he does listened to what Joe Rogan said he does and now they're sending me lab reports and now they're sending me lab reports and they're saying my testosterone has and they're saying my testosterone has gone way up to unheard of levels so I've gone way up to unheard of levels so I've got these case studies of people before got these case studies of people before after that we're accumulating it is time after that we're accumulating it is time for a new comprehensive clinical trial for a new comprehensive clinical trial that shows whether this is a reliable that shows whether this is a reliable repeatable phenomena in otherwise normal repeatable phenomena in otherwise normal human beings wow amazing my friend so I human beings wow amazing my friend so I think the really important point to think the really important point to underscore there is pre-exercise cold underscore there is pre-exercise cold has the ability to improve testosterone has the ability to improve testosterone and I think this is really we have some and I think this is really we have some great questions coming in and so friends great questions coming in and so friends really appreciate you all being here really appreciate you all being here thanks for the great questions we have thanks for the great questions we have uh Nick is in the house it looks like uh Nick is in the house it looks like that message is no longer here we have that message is no longer here we have Rob has a great question want to get to

Rob has a great question want to get to uh we have Roberto uh lesie and others uh we have Roberto uh lesie and others so any questions regarding cold punch so any questions regarding cold punch therapy please uh type them in the therapy please uh type them in the comment section below um but I I have a comment section below um but I I have a few questions that I want to get into few questions that I want to get into regarding using cold as a tool regarding using cold as a tool pre-workout to improve hormone levels pre-workout to improve hormone levels but since we are live we want to address but since we are live we want to address uh some questions first let's start with uh some questions first let's start with Rob's question is it okay to plunge Rob's question is it okay to plunge after weight training I hear it can after weight training I hear it can reduce your gains and so this is really reduce your gains and so this is really important so I would love Tom for you to important so I would love Tom for you to just tackle this one there is one case just tackle this one there is one case in which your cold plunge after weight in which your cold plunge after weight training makes sense and that is if training makes sense and that is if you're trying if you're in a competition you're trying if you're in a competition maybe it's a multi-day competition you maybe it's a multi-day competition you want to bring yourself back to want to bring yourself back to Performance level so you can do it again Performance level so you can do it again the next day The cold plunge can reduce the next day The cold plunge can reduce some of the inflammation it can improve some of the inflammation it can improve your Mobility can bring you back to your Mobility can bring you back to competitive but that's weight competitive but that's weight competition not weight training and I'm competition not weight training and I'm going to this is an oversimplification going to this is an oversimplification but allow me on a live no no it's not

but allow me on a live no no it's not okay to do cold plunge after weight okay to do cold plunge after weight training most of the time you will training most of the time you will suppress your testosterone whatever suppress your testosterone whatever you're trying to do for the weight you're trying to do for the weight training gain TR strength build muscle training gain TR strength build muscle you're going to be counteracting that you're going to be counteracting that goal if you do the cold plunge after but goal if you do the cold plunge after but here's what you can do instead do the here's what you can do instead do the cold plunge before you will speed your cold plunge before you will speed your recovery and there's some good data on recovery and there's some good data on this we've got an article at Morosco this we've got an article at Morosco Forge if you want the benefits that you Forge if you want the benefits that you would ordinarily get from cold plunge would ordinarily get from cold plunge after do it before you will still get after do it before you will still get much of that speedy recovery benefit much of that speedy recovery benefit love that and I think a natural segue or love that and I think a natural segue or question that I have from that Tom would question that I have from that Tom would be how long would you want to stay in be how long would you want to stay in the coal plunge pre-workout uh would it the coal plunge pre-workout uh would it be 90 seconds up to 3 minutes like is it be 90 seconds up to 3 minutes like is it variable based upon your where you at variable based upon your where you at where your tolerance is the longer you where your tolerance is the longer you stay in the more heat will be extracted stay in the more heat will be extracted from your body the possibility of from your body the possibility of lowering your core body temperature lowering your core body temperature increases the longer you stay in the increases the longer you stay in the cold plunge now if you have a gap cold plunge now if you have a gap between your plunge and your workout

between your plunge and your workout maybe it's 30 minutes cuz you got to maybe it's 30 minutes cuz you got to drive to the gym or something staying in drive to the gym or something staying in a little bit longer will retain that a little bit longer will retain that feeling of cold that feeling of feeling of cold that feeling of shivering so that by the time you get to shivering so that by the time you get to the gym you're still going to have that the gym you're still going to have that that cold energy but what I do is I get that cold energy but what I do is I get out of my Morosco I'm on the balcony I out of my Morosco I'm on the balcony I pick up my steel mace I pick up the pick up my steel mace I pick up the kettle bells I do the push-ups the kettle bells I do the push-ups the pull-ups I only do two to three minutes pull-ups I only do two to three minutes because I get right out of this is 33° because I get right out of this is 33° water and then I get straight to the water and then I get straight to the exercise that seems to be working really exercise that seems to be working really really well for me so if you're trying really well for me so if you're trying to manage a gap then go a little longer to manage a gap then go a little longer extract a little more heat you will extract a little more heat you will retain that feeling of being cold for retain that feeling of being cold for your workout when you start I want to your workout when you start I want to drill into the mechanisms I have a few drill into the mechanisms I have a few questions there but of course want to questions there but of course want to address our live questions as well so address our live questions as well so I'll hold that thought that I have there I'll hold that thought that I have there um thought as food this is the YouTube um thought as food this is the YouTube handle says proper temperature for the handle says proper temperature for the health benefits let's tackle that one health benefits let's tackle that one the any temperature is a good the any temperature is a good temperature for metabolic benefits if temperature for metabolic benefits if you feel the gas reflex then you know

you feel the gas reflex then you know you've activated the sympathetic nervous you've activated the sympathetic nervous system You' probably activated your system You' probably activated your brown fat if you have any you know brown fat if you have any you know you're getting some benefit but the you're getting some benefit but the psychological benefits they only really psychological benefits they only really kick in at those temperatures that scare kick in at those temperatures that scare you so this is heart rate variability you so this is heart rate variability there are studies that have looked at there are studies that have looked at cryotherapy and cold water and heart cryotherapy and cold water and heart rate variability heart rate variability rate variability heart rate variability is your uh heart's capacity its ability is your uh heart's capacity its ability to adapt to different uh stresses needs to adapt to different uh stresses needs that your body has the higher your heart that your body has the higher your heart rate variability to typically the better rate variability to typically the better your psychological resilience it's the your psychological resilience it's the heart rate variability effect that you heart rate variability effect that you get at the really cold temperatures that get at the really cold temperatures that either I say frighten you or make you either I say frighten you or make you uncomfortable that that you really don't uncomfortable that that you really don't want to do so the proper temperature if want to do so the proper temperature if you're starting out 50s people are you're starting out 50s people are getting benefits but as you become cold getting benefits but as you become cold acclimated 50 is going to be boring yeah acclimated 50 is going to be boring yeah no I agree I mean you get acclimated no I agree I mean you get acclimated surprisingly quickly takes about 10 days surprisingly quickly takes about 10 days yeah and then most most people I mean at yeah and then most most people I mean at first getting into to either a freezing

first getting into to either a freezing ocean lake river stream or a Morosco ocean lake river stream or a Morosco Forge it's really intimidating the first Forge it's really intimidating the first couple times but then once you get couple times but then once you get acclimated to it it's no big deal I mean acclimated to it it's no big deal I mean it's really impressive and you take a it's really impressive and you take a breath you go in you say I've done this breath you go in you say I've done this before right and then your skin gets before right and then your skin gets numb and that's when all the magic numb and that's when all the magic starts to happen I mean I have a story starts to happen I mean I have a story that we can share later we did a that we can share later we did a contrast session yesterday there is a contrast session yesterday there is a question here about the sauna uh but question here about the sauna uh but going from hot to cold we both going from hot to cold we both independently we had about four people independently we had about four people with us experienced this euphoria and I with us experienced this euphoria and I want to get into maybe what your want to get into maybe what your thoughts are after having 24 hours to thoughts are after having 24 hours to process that Tom but I do have another process that Tom but I do have another question here um so we tackled that thud question here um so we tackled that thud is fought I would like to go down to is fought I would like to go down to Hazel Brum because Hazel says female Hazel Brum because Hazel says female here I love how I feel after plunging here I love how I feel after plunging but it makes me extra sleepy during the but it makes me extra sleepy during the day any thoughts she's not the only one day any thoughts she's not the only one uh a lot of people report improvements uh a lot of people report improvements in their sleep Hazel might be going you in their sleep Hazel might be going you can tell let us know Hazel how long and can tell let us know Hazel how long and at what temperature you might be at what temperature you might be overdoing it a little bit if it's

overdoing it a little bit if it's knocking out your energy too soon I knocking out your energy too soon I Plunge in the morning first thing right Plunge in the morning first thing right at dawn and I sleep great but what's at dawn and I sleep great but what's really interesting about hazel is all of really interesting about hazel is all of the rumors or the hearsay about women we the rumors or the hearsay about women we didn't know a lot about women and cold didn't know a lot about women and cold plunge there's one study and it wasn't plunge there's one study and it wasn't really focused on testosterone but this really focused on testosterone but this was young female undergraduates was young female undergraduates comparing men and women the women put comparing men and women the women put one hand in a bowl of of ice water and one hand in a bowl of of ice water and they got an immediate boost in salivary they got an immediate boost in salivary testosterone much greater than the men testosterone much greater than the men it looks like the women don't need to it looks like the women don't need to exercise after the cold and there's a exercise after the cold and there's a reason for it in women testosterone is reason for it in women testosterone is produced in the ovaries but it's also produced in the ovaries but it's also produced in the skin in the adrenal produced in the skin in the adrenal glands and in the fat cells there's glands and in the fat cells there's nothing better to stimulate your skin nothing better to stimulate your skin cells adrenal glands and fat cells than cells adrenal glands and fat cells than an ice bath so the proportion of an ice bath so the proportion of testosterone that a woman produces from testosterone that a woman produces from these secondary sources is much greater

these secondary sources is much greater than in a man a woman can get an than in a man a woman can get an instantaneous Boost from the skin the instantaneous Boost from the skin the fat and the adrenal glands two women fat and the adrenal glands two women have written to me one of them she had a have written to me one of them she had a hysterctomy she had her ovaries removed hysterctomy she had her ovaries removed and she said she was on a male and she said she was on a male testosterone replacement cream and this testosterone replacement cream and this is all medically supervised just to is all medically supervised just to because now she's surgically menopausal because now she's surgically menopausal to keep her tea levels up they were at to keep her tea levels up they were at 14 nanog per decaler and it's not 14 nanog per decaler and it's not abysmal abysmal but she was saying I'm really interested but she was saying I'm really interested in this ice bath thing she did that for in this ice bath thing she did that for like a couple of months she didn't like a couple of months she didn't exercise afterwards at least she wasn't exercise afterwards at least she wasn't like religious about it she had her labs like religious about it she had her labs done again and she sent them to me 160 done again and she sent them to me 160 she more than 10 xed her testosterone she more than 10 xed her testosterone without any ovaries in her body and of without any ovaries in her body and of course her clinician is saying let's get course her clinician is saying let's get you off the testosterone replacement you off the testosterone replacement therapy and she's like no I'm not doing therapy and she's like no I'm not doing that right she's said now she's off it that right she's said now she's off it she wants to retest she wants to see she wants to retest she wants to see what she's got if she's only doing the what she's got if she's only doing the ice baths wow but she's not the only one

ice baths wow but she's not the only one there's a younger woman in her 30s there's a younger woman in her 30s entirely healthy and she was at 1.1 and entirely healthy and she was at 1.1 and I'm trying to remember the units because I'm trying to remember the units because she's in the United Kingdom they were she's in the United Kingdom they were Moler instead of uh nanograms she went Moler instead of uh nanograms she went from uh 0.6 Before ice bath to 1.1 after from uh 0.6 Before ice bath to 1.1 after she saw a similar not 10x but she wasn't she saw a similar not 10x but she wasn't coming from the same low base so there's coming from the same low base so there's now more case studies and a little bit now more case studies and a little bit of evidence on the hormonal particularly of evidence on the hormonal particularly testosterone benefits for women and it testosterone benefits for women and it doesn't seem like it even requires doesn't seem like it even requires exercise interesting that's fasting so exercise interesting that's fasting so there was a question here that came in there was a question here that came in are are you saying that a hand plunge is are are you saying that a hand plunge is enough what a great question it's cold enough what a great question it's cold stimulation the the the Sakamoto study stimulation the the the Sakamoto study from 1991 the Archie study uh that was from 1991 the Archie study uh that was salivary testosterone in women they were salivary testosterone in women they were using the cold pressure test so Sakamoto using the cold pressure test so Sakamoto in Japan it was everything from the in Japan it was everything from the elbow down on the non-dominant hand this elbow down on the non-dominant hand this is to activate the nervous system but

is to activate the nervous system but it's not a lot of heat extraction so it's not a lot of heat extraction so there's something happening here which there's something happening here which is not entirely metabolic there is not entirely metabolic there testosterone is both a physiological and testosterone is both a physiological and a psychological phenomena yeah just cold a psychological phenomena yeah just cold stimulation was enough to get a stimulation was enough to get a measurable response wow and so there is measurable response wow and so there is a individual here uh who's commenting a individual here uh who's commenting tsg saying where's the proof show me the tsg saying where's the proof show me the proof that getting cold can improve proof that getting cold can improve testosterone levels uh and so admittedly testosterone levels uh and so admittedly yeah we are talking about some anecdotal yeah we are talking about some anecdotal stories myself Tom uh some customers and stories myself Tom uh some customers and so forth that have sent some uh you know so forth that have sent some uh you know feedback in but also you mentioned uh feedback in but also you mentioned uh the Japanese scientists who have looked the Japanese scientists who have looked at this so I think you know there is at this so I think you know there is there's speculation on on every there's speculation on on every everything out there and I think it's everything out there and I think it's good to be naturally skeptical um but do good to be naturally skeptical um but do you want to briefly talk about some of you want to briefly talk about some of those studies tsg here's the problem those studies tsg here's the problem science can't prove anything science can science can't prove anything science can disprove but I'm a positivist so my PhD disprove but I'm a positivist so my PhD is comes with a little bit of the is comes with a little bit of the philosophy of science we formulate a philosophy of science we formulate a hypothesis because we see evidence we

hypothesis because we see evidence we say well we're really curious about this say well we're really curious about this we set up a study and just because my we set up a study and just because my labs jumped through and just because labs jumped through and just because I've got these five six people with I've got these five six people with documented case studies that says wow documented case studies that says wow look at this 10x this 3x boost in look at this 10x this 3x boost in testosterone that doesn't prove that testosterone that doesn't prove that it's going to work for everybody the it's going to work for everybody the proof for you is in your own labs and in proof for you is in your own labs and in your own experience because nothing your own experience because nothing matters more than your n equals one self matters more than your n equals one self experiment I'm not interested in trying experiment I'm not interested in trying to force science to Pro prove things it to force science to Pro prove things it can only indicate things that's can only indicate things that's beautiful beautiful point there um we beautiful beautiful point there um we have vinman 918 says I'm about to do a have vinman 918 says I'm about to do a cold Plunge in a few minutes what's your cold Plunge in a few minutes what's your opinion on the optimal duration and his opinion on the optimal duration and his his plunge gets uh it's about 40 degrees his plunge gets uh it's about 40 degrees so great question vinman uh I don't know so great question vinman uh I don't know how much experience you have uh when how much experience you have uh when you're starting out it's different than you're starting out it's different than when you're already acclimated think when you're already acclimated think about the analogy to weight training I about the analogy to weight training I couldn't tell you hey you're going to couldn't tell you hey you're going to start weight training this is the start weight training this is the optimal number of reps and this is the

optimal number of reps and this is the optimal weight because it depends on how optimal weight because it depends on how well Tred you already are if you're just well Tred you already are if you're just starting out and probably vinman's been starting out and probably vinman's been at this for a while but there might be at this for a while but there might be some people who are just starting out some people who are just starting out you go cold enough to gasp so you get in you go cold enough to gasp so you get in the water you feel like you you're going the water you feel like you you're going to catch your breath you go long enough to catch your breath you go long enough to shiver but after you've been at this to shiver but after you've been at this for a while if you're doing it every day for a while if you're doing it every day for two weeks you're not likely to for two weeks you're not likely to shiver anymore unless you're dropping shiver anymore unless you're dropping the temperature maybe you started at 50 the temperature maybe you started at 50 and you're working your way down to 35 and you're working your way down to 35 if you're not challenging yourself at a if you're not challenging yourself at a colder temperature and you can really colder temperature and you can really only go down to 32 33 yeah then you're only go down to 32 33 yeah then you're not likely to feel the shiver and you not likely to feel the shiver and you need a different rule of thumb for me need a different rule of thumb for me it's 2 to four minutes unless I'm it's 2 to four minutes unless I'm shooting a video in which case it might shooting a video in which case it might be 18 minutes cuz I need three takes and be 18 minutes cuz I need three takes and I'm not very good at speaking I'm not very good at speaking extemporaneously in the cold yeah 18 extemporaneously in the cold yeah 18 minutes would be a lot especially inos minutes would be a lot especially inos go for that's a long time yeah that's a go for that's a long time yeah that's a long warm-up period yeah but I like that long warm-up period yeah but I like that idea about two to four minutes yep idea about two to four minutes yep that's a good good point uh Nick rapis that's a good good point uh Nick rapis has a great question here Thomas what has a great question here Thomas what are your thoughts about Americans only

are your thoughts about Americans only doing sauna I'm sorry doing sauna only doing sauna I'm sorry doing sauna only without cold therapy yeah well full without cold therapy yeah well full disclosure I talked to Nick this morning disclosure I talked to Nick this morning about it so he's tuning in and he's about it so he's tuning in and he's asking the really difficult questions asking the really difficult questions Sona is taking off and you've got some Sona is taking off and you've got some of the leading voices in the US saying of the leading voices in the US saying I'm a big believer in Sona I've heard I'm a big believer in Sona I've heard you of course you can keep going where you of course you can keep going where that's sure where uh Michael say look that's sure where uh Michael say look all you have to do is spend 20 minutes all you have to do is spend 20 minutes in the SAA a couple times a week and in the SAA a couple times a week and there's some truth to that but there is there's some truth to that but there is not an epidemiological study coming out not an epidemiological study coming out of Finland that would support that of Finland that would support that because Sona it means hot and cold in because Sona it means hot and cold in Finland it just does it doesn't mean Finland it just does it doesn't mean just the hot box it means both it's that just the hot box it means both it's that they take the cold for granted in they take the cold for granted in Finland they have the snow they have the Finland they have the snow they have the lakes and so there's always cold lakes and so there's always cold available they don't need a morasco I available they don't need a morasco I live in Phoenix Arizona I don't need a live in Phoenix Arizona I don't need a Sona I just drive around in my car with Sona I just drive around in my car with the heat on if I want to get hot in the heat on if I want to get hot in Phoenix but I do need an ice bath the Phoenix but I do need an ice bath the Sona research the when people are citing

Sona research the when people are citing the Sona statistics they are leaving out the Sona statistics they are leaving out the fact that all of the best research the fact that all of the best research and the epidemiological the longitudinal and the epidemiological the longitudinal studies are thermal contrast therapy so studies are thermal contrast therapy so Nick's given me this question so that I Nick's given me this question so that I can say if you're doing Sona without can say if you're doing Sona without cold you can not rely upon the findings cold you can not rely upon the findings that have been uh popularized via social that have been uh popularized via social media to apply to you you probably still media to apply to you you probably still enjoying it you're probably still enjoying it you're probably still getting some benefits but don't think getting some benefits but don't think that that study is what you're really that that study is what you're really doing wow I you know what this is doing wow I you know what this is actually mind-blowing for me because actually mind-blowing for me because I've never um put language to it in that I've never um put language to it in that way or thought about it because you know way or thought about it because you know you do look at Yari laman's research and you do look at Yari laman's research and it's pretty impressive a 60% reduction it's pretty impressive a 60% reduction in the OR reduced risk of developing in the OR reduced risk of developing dementia and Alzheimer's uh sudden dementia and Alzheimer's uh sudden cardiac death all these longitudinal cardiac death all these longitudinal studies we bring up a great point in studies we bring up a great point in Finland in the Nordic countries and and Finland in the Nordic countries and and part of Russia and so forth uh Eastern part of Russia and so forth uh Eastern Europe there is cold baked into the Europe there is cold baked into the sauna practice always wow yeah I've sauna practice always wow yeah I've never thought of it that way that is and never thought of it that way that is and so you couldn't do a study in Finland of

so you couldn't do a study in Finland of people who just Sona but don't do cold people who just Sona but don't do cold you wouldn't be able to find the you wouldn't be able to find the subjects and we don't know how much of subjects and we don't know how much of that 60% reduction for example is due to that 60% reduction for example is due to getting hot and how much of that is getting hot and how much of that is contributed by the cold exposure that contributed by the cold exposure that they're also doing wow this is brilliant they're also doing wow this is brilliant I mean it's sort of like the inverse of I mean it's sort of like the inverse of the healthy user bias that gets um baked the healthy user bias that gets um baked into nutritional epidemiological studies into nutritional epidemiological studies where people say well see it's meat or where people say well see it's meat or uh processed red meat red meat in uh processed red meat red meat in general that is linked with general that is linked with cardiovascular disease and often times cardiovascular disease and often times people are not eating red meat in people are not eating red meat in isolation they're having red meat IE a isolation they're having red meat IE a hot dog and the hot dog bun probably hot dog and the hot dog bun probably some french fries in a soda so these some french fries in a soda so these nutritional epidemiological studies say nutritional epidemiological studies say see red meat is going to clog your see red meat is going to clog your arteries and is linked with sudden arteries and is linked with sudden cardiac death and all increase all cause cardiac death and all increase all cause mortality and what Tom is saying here mortality and what Tom is saying here and it makes a lot of sense is when we and it makes a lot of sense is when we read the epidemiological studies uh read the epidemiological studies uh highlighting the health benefits linked highlighting the health benefits linked with sauna therapy in the countries in with sauna therapy in the countries in which they're being studied sauna is not which they're being studied sauna is not being used used in isolation they're

being used used in isolation they're also utilizing the cold wow that's also utilizing the cold wow that's really impressive uh friends I just want really impressive uh friends I just want to check in how are we doing if you're to check in how are we doing if you're enjoying the content please hit that enjoying the content please hit that like button we really enjoy your live like button we really enjoy your live questions a lot of great questions are questions a lot of great questions are coming in thank you Nick for that one um coming in thank you Nick for that one um mball says rather than cold plunge how mball says rather than cold plunge how about cold exposure this is a good about cold exposure this is a good question how about cold exposure like question how about cold exposure like walking in cold weather with no warm walking in cold weather with no warm clothes I love it your neighbors are clothes I love it your neighbors are going to think that you're a nut uh but going to think that you're a nut uh but you know go out in the winter if you you know go out in the winter if you happen to live live in one of these happen to live live in one of these colder States this doesn't apply to colder States this doesn't apply to Phoenix but I did my PhD at Clarkson Phoenix but I did my PhD at Clarkson University in Northern New York that's University in Northern New York that's north of Lake plet we would come out of north of Lake plet we would come out of the gym playing racketball or something the gym playing racketball or something -30 Fahrenheit and we weren't bothered -30 Fahrenheit and we weren't bothered at all t-shirt sweaty and we could do at all t-shirt sweaty and we could do that for say 10 or 15 minutes long that for say 10 or 15 minutes long enough to get from the gym back to our enough to get from the gym back to our dorm because of all this warmth that we dorm because of all this warmth that we had I love being out in the cold weather had I love being out in the cold weather I call it underdressing and it is a I call it underdressing and it is a great way to activate some round fat to great way to activate some round fat to get your metabolism going however the

get your metabolism going however the water will extract heat so much more water will extract heat so much more effectively that you've got to be in effectively that you've got to be in cold air sometimes 10 times as much 10 cold air sometimes 10 times as much 10 times as long just not as efficient yeah times as long just not as efficient yeah you either got to get the air way cold you either got to get the air way cold uh that would be like a cryochamber uh that would be like a cryochamber negative 150 Fahrenheit or you have to negative 150 Fahrenheit or you have to be out there for a longer time so if be out there for a longer time so if you're going to take a walk and you've you're going to take a walk and you've got 45 minutes put it to good use got 45 minutes put it to good use underdress right however uh 4 minutes in underdress right however uh 4 minutes in the ice bath is fits into my schedule the ice bath is fits into my schedule way more efficient I love that but again way more efficient I love that but again if you don't have access to a cold if you don't have access to a cold immersion or you're trying to save up immersion or you're trying to save up for one this is another way to go about for one this is another way to go about it I like that uh aspect of it I like that uh aspect of underdressing underdressing Idaho uh AR minan says cardiac risk for Idaho uh AR minan says cardiac risk for those over 60 great question this is a those over 60 great question this is a really good question if you go to really good question if you go to Wikipedia Wikipedia is going to make you Wikipedia Wikipedia is going to make you think that an ice bath is going to kill think that an ice bath is going to kill you there is um a theory and this is you there is um a theory and this is coming from Mike Tipton in the United coming from Mike Tipton in the United Kingdom at the University of Portsmith

Kingdom at the University of Portsmith Mike Tipton is extraordinarily concerned Mike Tipton is extraordinarily concerned with drowning this is his career how to with drowning this is his career how to prevent drowning deaths some of those prevent drowning deaths some of those drowning deaths happen in cold water so drowning deaths happen in cold water so he speculated that in the cold perhaps he speculated that in the cold perhaps it's a heart arhythmia that is caused by it's a heart arhythmia that is caused by conflict between the gasp reflex and the conflict between the gasp reflex and the dive reflex the gasp reflex is when any dive reflex the gasp reflex is when any mammal will experience it you get into mammal will experience it you get into the cold water and you need to catch the cold water and you need to catch your breath if you're trying to catch your breath if you're trying to catch your breath and you wind up sucking in a your breath and you wind up sucking in a lot of water it increases the risk of lot of water it increases the risk of drowning but about 30 seconds after the drowning but about 30 seconds after the gasp reflex the dive reflex will kick in gasp reflex the dive reflex will kick in the dive reflex is your parasympathetic the dive reflex is your parasympathetic nervous system it reduces the rate of nervous system it reduces the rate of oxygen consumption it's preparing your oxygen consumption it's preparing your body to I don't know dive down and get body to I don't know dive down and get lobsters or muscles or whatever we lobsters or muscles or whatever we needed to do whatever our ancestors needed to do whatever our ancestors needed to do Tipton's theory is that the needed to do Tipton's theory is that the gasp reflex and the dive reflex if gasp reflex and the dive reflex if they're experienced together could they're experienced together could create autonom I conflict that would

create autonom I conflict that would cause heart arhythmia and perhaps the cause heart arhythmia and perhaps the people who drowned in the cold water people who drowned in the cold water were experiencing this heart anomaly and were experiencing this heart anomaly and that's the real cause of death now I that's the real cause of death now I haven't found a case anywhere of this haven't found a case anywhere of this being true and it's been an being true and it's been an extraordinary distraction from the real extraordinary distraction from the real contraindications to ice bath contraindications to ice bath hypertension is the most important one hypertension is the most important one and there are a couple of documented and there are a couple of documented reports of people with high blood reports of people with high blood pressure who go into the cold water pressure who go into the cold water swimming or they go into the ice path swimming or they go into the ice path the baso constriction in their limbs the baso constriction in their limbs increases the blood pressure in their increases the blood pressure in their core and then they can experience an core and then they can experience an acute hypertensive event both of the acute hypertensive event both of the cases that I've heard about were cases that I've heard about were resolved under medical supervision but resolved under medical supervision but that's a real contraindication and much that's a real contraindication and much rather the Wikipedia rewrote their rather the Wikipedia rewrote their article and said hey if you have high article and said hey if you have high blood pressure take it easy on the cold blood pressure take it easy on the cold what we have not seen is this hard what we have not seen is this hard arhythmia heart attack phenomena now I'm arhythmia heart attack phenomena now I'm not suggesting if you've got a pacemaker not suggesting if you've got a pacemaker if you've got like a diagnosed you know if you've got like a diagnosed you know you have a heart condition I'm not

you have a heart condition I'm not saying get into 34 degrees because I'm saying get into 34 degrees because I'm not a medical doctor my doctorate is in not a medical doctor my doctorate is in engineering I build machines I'd much engineering I build machines I'd much rather that person consult with their rather that person consult with their physician yeah excellent point um tsg physician yeah excellent point um tsg says people die in cold water because says people die in cold water because they gasp and drown is that part of that they gasp and drown is that part of that gas refle I think Mike Tipton would gas refle I think Mike Tipton would agree with him yeah but the weird thing agree with him yeah but the weird thing about the cold water is cold water about the cold water is cold water protects the brain the cold temperatures protects the brain the cold temperatures allow the brain to tolerate hypoxia so allow the brain to tolerate hypoxia so there's no pulse there's no blood there's no pulse there's no blood there's no Oxygen going towards the there's no Oxygen going towards the brain but I talked to an emergency room brain but I talked to an emergency room physician from Baltimore who told me physician from Baltimore who told me they aren't dead just because they look they aren't dead just because they look dead she says they're not dead until dead she says they're not dead until after we resuscitate she has brought after we resuscitate she has brought people with no Vital Signs cold water people with no Vital Signs cold water drowning victims back to life as much as drowning victims back to life as much as 24 hours after they were pulled out of 24 hours after they were pulled out of the water because the colder the water because the colder temperatures protect the brain from the temperatures protect the brain from the damage that would otherwise be caused by damage that would otherwise be caused by by a lack of oxygen this is one of the

by a lack of oxygen this is one of the most remarkable things so a cold water most remarkable things so a cold water drowning is sort of a a special medical drowning is sort of a a special medical situation the number one concern when situation the number one concern when you're doing winter swimming like in the you're doing winter swimming like in the lake or in the ocean is drowning it's lake or in the ocean is drowning it's the surf it's the Rip Tide it's getting the surf it's the Rip Tide it's getting trapped by the ice it's the Panic that trapped by the ice it's the Panic that can come with that in an ice bath it's a can come with that in an ice bath it's a lot safer no I agree very controlled and lot safer no I agree very controlled and this is why you want to do this with this is why you want to do this with friends and be smart about it you know friends and be smart about it you know if you've never done this you're over 60 if you've never done this you're over 60 you're hypertensive you know you have you're hypertensive you know you have some heart issues genetically or in your some heart issues genetically or in your health history then just go and waste up health history then just go and waste up or I mean you know just around your or I mean you know just around your belly button and and call that good and belly button and and call that good and then just like we wouldn't advise people then just like we wouldn't advise people to go run a marathon if they've never to go run a marathon if they've never run in the last 12 months I mean that run in the last 12 months I mean that would be foolish so we should build up would be foolish so we should build up to this and so we're talking about this to this and so we're talking about this because most of you are really healthy because most of you are really healthy you exercise you go in the sauna after you exercise you go in the sauna after the gym and things like that but this is the gym and things like that but this is just another tool that can possibly help just another tool that can possibly help you and with that point there was a you and with that point there was a question that came in here about um how

question that came in here about um how deep should you go into the cold this is deep should you go into the cold this is from uh David David says should I be from uh David David says should I be plunging up to the chin I find it super plunging up to the chin I find it super hard to go to the juggler I agree yeah hard to go to the juggler I agree yeah uh I agree with David that it's super uh I agree with David that it's super hard and I'm not going to tell him that hard and I'm not going to tell him that he should I'm going to tell him that I he should I'm going to tell him that I do and I get a lot out of it now I will do and I get a lot out of it now I will start almost every ice bath with a head start almost every ice bath with a head dunk and I don't you know the top of my dunk and I don't you know the top of my head doesn't really get all the way in head doesn't really get all the way in but just covering my face with the cold but just covering my face with the cold cold water causes a panic which is kind cold water causes a panic which is kind of why I do it I've tried to submerge of why I do it I've tried to submerge and just slowly exhale I never hold my and just slowly exhale I never hold my breath under the water but just slowly breath under the water but just slowly exhale my record is 11 seconds which is exhale my record is 11 seconds which is pathetic you know because the Panic that pathetic you know because the Panic that I experience becomes overwhelming and I experience becomes overwhelming and then I'll come out I just go into my then I'll come out I just go into my chin and I can breathe I structure my chin and I can breathe I structure my breathing use some box breathing and breathing use some box breathing and then it feels okay so David what you're then it feels okay so David what you're experiencing when you say you have a experiencing when you say you have a really hard time going to the juggler really hard time going to the juggler means you're normal this is what mammals

means you're normal this is what mammals are supposed to experience try relaxing are supposed to experience try relaxing yourself with the breath uh you might do yourself with the breath uh you might do in on six out on four or whatever Rhythm in on six out on four or whatever Rhythm works for you and see if you can inch a works for you and see if you can inch a little lower and a little lower you little lower and a little lower you might find that this takes weeks and might find that this takes weeks and that it gets it's never going to be easy that it gets it's never going to be easy but you become a little more but you become a little more accomplished at dealing with the accomplished at dealing with the feelings that come up yeah excellent feelings that come up yeah excellent point uh there was a question here from point uh there was a question here from was it Jeremy Jeremy Adams says best was it Jeremy Jeremy Adams says best workout after a nice bath weights or workout after a nice bath weights or cardio and I think this will help close cardio and I think this will help close the loop on the conversation how we the loop on the conversation how we introduce this conversation so for those introduce this conversation so for those of you that are just joining us we're of you that are just joining us we're talking all about the health benefits of talking all about the health benefits of cold immersions and using this as a tool cold immersions and using this as a tool to possibly improve testosterone to possibly improve testosterone recovery and Beyond and so we talked recovery and Beyond and so we talked about how you don't want to do cold about how you don't want to do cold immersions after exercise you actually immersions after exercise you actually want to do your cold plunge pre-workout want to do your cold plunge pre-workout and the mechanisms here and I want to and the mechanisms here and I want to address Jeremy's question about the best address Jeremy's question about the best workout but one thing I wanted to come workout but one thing I wanted to come back to was the mechanisms Tom so how do

back to was the mechanisms Tom so how do we what are your thoughts regarding how we what are your thoughts regarding how would pre-exercise cold cause one to would pre-exercise cold cause one to increase their testosterone and increase their testosterone and luteinizing hormone once they start luteinizing hormone once they start exercising after they've been cold the exercising after they've been cold the mechanisms are one of the great mechanisms are one of the great Mysteries uh you could Point towards the Mysteries uh you could Point towards the cacom response the adrenal glands but cacom response the adrenal glands but remember that testosterone is remember that testosterone is psychological as well as physiological psychological as well as physiological and so this means that the mechanisms and so this means that the mechanisms could be too pronged and sort of could be too pronged and sort of interrelated very difficult to interrelated very difficult to disaggregate for me I come out of the disaggregate for me I come out of the ice bath I pick up my steel mace this is ice bath I pick up my steel mace this is a 25 lb steel Ma and it took me like a 25 lb steel Ma and it took me like three weeks to learn how to swing it three weeks to learn how to swing it around and I feel like a Persian Warrior around and I feel like a Persian Warrior or something I feel like a tough guy you or something I feel like a tough guy you know now I'm not saying I want to get in know now I'm not saying I want to get in a fight or anything but I in that moment a fight or anything but I in that moment I feel Invincible that is the kind of I feel Invincible that is the kind of feeling of victory of having done feeling of victory of having done something difficult and accomplished something difficult and accomplished well that boosts your testosterone and well that boosts your testosterone and the weird thing is you win at a video the weird thing is you win at a video game your testosterone goes up

game your testosterone goes up testosterone is associated with that um testosterone is associated with that um feeling of striving and making progress feeling of striving and making progress towards your goal it might not be towards your goal it might not be physiological in that sense at all right physiological in that sense at all right on the other hand when you think about on the other hand when you think about the adrenals and the fat cells and the the adrenals and the fat cells and the sources of testosterone you think about sources of testosterone you think about the way the testes work in men keeping the way the testes work in men keeping them cold uh we know that elevated them cold uh we know that elevated temperatures in your testicles will temperatures in your testicles will suppress your testosterone so there are suppress your testosterone so there are likely physiological mechanisms as well likely physiological mechanisms as well Sona not a good thing for testosterone Sona not a good thing for testosterone and sperm count and so I do cold every and sperm count and so I do cold every day but I don't do Sona every day as far day but I don't do Sona every day as far as weight training versus cardio I'm not as weight training versus cardio I'm not the right guy to ask I don't do cardio the right guy to ask I don't do cardio uh and you know I've done it in the past uh and you know I've done it in the past but for me it's not a lot of fun I live but for me it's not a lot of fun I live on the 32nd Floor I want to exercise on the 32nd Floor I want to exercise right away so I have weights for that right away so I have weights for that yeah but I don't do a lot of weights on yeah but I don't do a lot of weights on the other hand the Sakamoto study it was the other hand the Sakamoto study it was 20 minutes on the exercise bike 20 minutes on the exercise bike stationary bike that's itard card zone

stationary bike that's itard card zone two probably what I've heard from two probably what I've heard from readers is that both work fine one guy readers is that both work fine one guy he's older than me he's in his 60s he he's older than me he's in his 60s he read my article he jumps in the pond and read my article he jumps in the pond and then he just like power walks home like then he just like power walks home like he's some kind of soccer mom and that's he's some kind of soccer mom and that's it he doesn't do weights he got his tea it he doesn't do weights he got his tea levels total te up above mine he took levels total te up above mine he took himself off of trt because he's like I himself off of trt because he's like I don't want this anymore I don't need don't want this anymore I don't need that he's in the 1200s which is unheard that he's in the 1200s which is unheard of for a his age that's really of for a his age that's really impressive um what I've been doing is a impressive um what I've been doing is a combination it just depends on the day combination it just depends on the day so I think uh any movement is going to so I think uh any movement is going to naturally improve your body temperature naturally improve your body temperature which is going to be suppressed if you which is going to be suppressed if you do this sort of tactic if you will this do this sort of tactic if you will this protocol of pre-exercise cold therapy as protocol of pre-exercise cold therapy as a way to optimize testosterone levels a way to optimize testosterone levels among other things I think there's among other things I think there's there's other benefits there but I do there's other benefits there but I do want to address one Live question from want to address one Live question from Tate International um she was commenting Tate International um she was commenting on how we were talking about in parts of on how we were talking about in parts of Europe and the nor ntic countries Europe and the nor ntic countries Scandinavian countries um how sauna is

Scandinavian countries um how sauna is often paired with cold therapy she says often paired with cold therapy she says that's why I really love theme baths in that's why I really love theme baths in Germany they have saunas hot and cold Germany they have saunas hot and cold pools all in the same place now even in pools all in the same place now even in South Korea I've traveled there uh parts South Korea I've traveled there uh parts of Indonesia all over Latin America of Indonesia all over Latin America whatever uh most Spas will do if they whatever uh most Spas will do if they have a sauna they often have a cold pool have a sauna they often have a cold pool even now Equinox has cold pools which even now Equinox has cold pools which that's great yeah they're not as cold as that's great yeah they're not as cold as mosco Forge but I mean at least they're mosco Forge but I mean at least they're a start for some people which I think uh a start for some people which I think uh is fantastic uh swamp Haw thank you for is fantastic uh swamp Haw thank you for your amazing comments as always uh swamp your amazing comments as always uh swamp says any benefits to going colder than says any benefits to going colder than freezing temps by mixing in salt or freezing temps by mixing in salt or anything uh it might be good for your anything uh it might be good for your ego swamp Haw because then you start to ego swamp Haw because then you start to get bragging rights on the internet you get bragging rights on the internet you say I put in 12 pounds of Epsom salt and say I put in 12 pounds of Epsom salt and I set my thermostat down to 30° but uh I set my thermostat down to 30° but uh the risks don't justify the bragging the risks don't justify the bragging right so I have two Engineers who did right so I have two Engineers who did exactly that I got a call from one of exactly that I got a call from one of them two days later and he said Tom I them two days later and he said Tom I feel like I'm sunburned you know I can't

feel like I'm sunburned you know I can't even move everything hurts I said wow I even move everything hurts I said wow I I have no idea have you been out in the I have no idea have you been out in the sun he goes no I said wait a second were sun he goes no I said wait a second were you plunging with Mike like you you sent you plunging with Mike like you you sent me that picture and all that slush in me that picture and all that slush in there he goes yeah well how's Mike Feel there he goes yeah well how's Mike Feel called Mike same same thing it was Frost called Mike same same thing it was Frost nip so this is frostbite that hasn't nip so this is frostbite that hasn't gone through several layers of skin it gone through several layers of skin it feels like a sunburn and it's just it's feels like a sunburn and it's just it's killed the first couple of layers by killed the first couple of layers by creating ice within the skin cells so I creating ice within the skin cells so I was would say not worth it just so you was would say not worth it just so you can brag about it but now I got a really can brag about it but now I got a really good story from my two Engineers yeah good story from my two Engineers yeah I've never been to Germany going back to I've never been to Germany going back to Tay thanks for making that mention I've Tay thanks for making that mention I've been to Iceland and I went through one been to Iceland and I went through one of the spa things that they have there of the spa things that they have there you know they're famous for their you know they're famous for their volcanic and okay great they had a cold volcanic and okay great they had a cold plunge and people were coming out of plunge and people were coming out of their big volcanic feed hot pool thing their big volcanic feed hot pool thing and they were skipping right past the and they were skipping right past the cold punch there was like a seven set cold punch there was like a seven set circuit and I'm like well I'm I'm circuit and I'm like well I'm I'm getting in here I was the only one in getting in here I was the only one in there and it wasn't even that cold 45 I

there and it wasn't even that cold 45 I mean it's in Celsius there but around 45 mean it's in Celsius there but around 45 and I'm thinking these people are all and I'm thinking these people are all missing out they wanted to go straight missing out they wanted to go straight from the hot tub to the Sona and there's from the hot tub to the Sona and there's a reason I don't like that in the hot a reason I don't like that in the hot tub you will experience Vaso tub you will experience Vaso constriction you ordinarily associate constriction you ordinarily associate the heat with Vaso dilation if you're in the heat with Vaso dilation if you're in the Sona and you're sweating yes you're the Sona and you're sweating yes you're getting the Vaso dilation but in the hot getting the Vaso dilation but in the hot tub your body knows not to sweat there's tub your body knows not to sweat there's no point in sweating into water there's no point in sweating into water there's a phenomena called hydrosis that shuts a phenomena called hydrosis that shuts down your sweat response in the hot tub down your sweat response in the hot tub and this means your body needs to vasil and this means your body needs to vasil constrict to defend itself from constrict to defend itself from overheating if you're going hot tub ice overheating if you're going hot tub ice bath you're going Vaso constriction bath you're going Vaso constriction basoc constriction really like with the basoc constriction really like with the dry heat or the Sona heat as long as dry heat or the Sona heat as long as you're sweating you know your body is you're sweating you know your body is working to Thermal regulate using vasod working to Thermal regulate using vasod dilation I'm not a fan of going back and dilation I'm not a fan of going back and forth between forth between hot water and cold water interesting

hot water and cold water interesting that's really good to good to mention so that's really good to good to mention so thank you uh for that I want to address thank you uh for that I want to address this question here uh Iris and I don't this question here uh Iris and I don't know how this myth really came about you know how this myth really came about you know our parents and our grandparents know our parents and our grandparents probably told our parents you know if probably told our parents you know if you little Johnny if you go play outside you little Johnny if you go play outside without your jacket on and it's cold out without your jacket on and it's cold out you're going to catch a cold so Ira says you're going to catch a cold so Ira says sometimes I'm worrying I I am worrying sometimes I'm worrying I I am worrying if underdressed and walking outside I if underdressed and walking outside I can catch a cold in the winter um all can catch a cold in the winter um all available evidence that I've read I mean available evidence that I've read I mean there was a epidemiological study I there was a epidemiological study I think it was a I don't know if you call think it was a I don't know if you call it a randomized control Tri but a study it a randomized control Tri but a study uh in a workplace setting where uh in a workplace setting where individuals were instructed they individuals were instructed they randomized people to either do nothing randomized people to either do nothing or some of these workers and it was a or some of these workers and it was a multiple thousands of employees to take multiple thousands of employees to take cold showers you remember the study so cold showers you remember the study so at the end of the study the people who at the end of the study the people who took cold showers every morning reported took cold showers every morning reported less sick days and it wasn't just a less sick days and it wasn't just a little bit less it signicant yeah so why little bit less it signicant yeah so why we still think that if you get cold we still think that if you get cold during the winter you're going to catch

during the winter you're going to catch a cold is it kind of like dietary fat a cold is it kind of like dietary fat makes you fat is it that Association I makes you fat is it that Association I think there are two reasons for it uh I think there are two reasons for it uh I think iris is asking an important think iris is asking an important question um the first reason is there's question um the first reason is there's a difference between the acute a difference between the acute therapeutic cold and chronic it is true therapeutic cold and chronic it is true when there's a cold wave mortality goes when there's a cold wave mortality goes up when you are exposed to Chronic up when you are exposed to Chronic inescapable cold it's not good for your inescapable cold it's not good for your body it's like uh running the marathon body it's like uh running the marathon might kill me in the certain condition might kill me in the certain condition that I am when you overdo what is that I am when you overdo what is supposed to be therapeutic instead it supposed to be therapeutic instead it becomes injurious and so people human becomes injurious and so people human beings are wired to be careful around beings are wired to be careful around the cold because too much cold is not the cold because too much cold is not good for you the other one is we've lost good for you the other one is we've lost all our Brown fat that is when you're a all our Brown fat that is when you're a kid I don't know where you grew up I kid I don't know where you grew up I grew up in Pittsburgh and it was the 70s grew up in Pittsburgh and it was the 70s and there were some hard winners and I and there were some hard winners and I made a lot of money shoveling sidewalks made a lot of money shoveling sidewalks when it was snowing and I thought if when it was snowing and I thought if school is canceled that's great I'd be school is canceled that's great I'd be outside all day and I would hear from my outside all day and I would hear from my mother the same question you know put on mother the same question you know put on your hat put on your mittens I'm like

your hat put on your mittens I'm like I'm fine mom and all my friends felt the I'm fine mom and all my friends felt the same well we have a lot of brown fat same well we have a lot of brown fat kids know when they're cold they will kids know when they're cold they will come in they will say can I have some come in they will say can I have some hot cocoa or something they know when to hot cocoa or something they know when to warm up they're choosing to be out in warm up they're choosing to be out in the snow but then we get to be adults the snow but then we get to be adults we've lost all our Brown fat because we've lost all our Brown fat because we're so comfortable and we see our we're so comfortable and we see our children and we forget what it's like to children and we forget what it's like to be that free and that playful and that be that free and that playful and that and to have a metabolism like that and and to have a metabolism like that and we want to sort of prot protect the we want to sort of prot protect the children from feelings that we're having children from feelings that we're having and we say put on a scarf come inside and we say put on a scarf come inside they'll let you know yeah that's a great they'll let you know yeah that's a great Point okay so and and this was another Point okay so and and this was another question that came in about the hormetic question that came in about the hormetic stressor here and maybe we can drill stressor here and maybe we can drill down about how um this was uh the handle down about how um this was uh the handle is food sorry thought as food um but the is food sorry thought as food um but the idea that you know some exercise is good idea that you know some exercise is good but you can overe exercise and and but you can overe exercise and and chronically overe exercised people have chronically overe exercised people have you know increased rates of sudden you know increased rates of sudden cardiac death or all cause mortality and cardiac death or all cause mortality and can be chronically inflamed and can be chronically inflamed and everything like that so excessive cold

everything like that so excessive cold is just as problematic as excessive is just as problematic as excessive anything you can overdo protein you can anything you can overdo protein you can overdo sleep overdo water you name it overdo sleep overdo water you name it you can overdo supplements what what is you can overdo supplements what what is a micronutrient at one dose becomes a a micronutrient at one dose becomes a poison at another dose and this is the poison at another dose and this is the the classic hormetic responses in the classic hormetic responses in toxicology where you through exposure toxicology where you through exposure therapy can strengthen your tolerance to therapy can strengthen your tolerance to things that otherwise might injure you things that otherwise might injure you right and so maybe if we can drill down right and so maybe if we can drill down on some of the hormetic benefits here on some of the hormetic benefits here you mentioned Brown adapost tissue um you mentioned Brown adapost tissue um you mentioned the vasod dilation Vaso you mentioned the vasod dilation Vaso contriction response I think it's really contriction response I think it's really a good exercise for your vascular a good exercise for your vascular endothelial tissue especially if you're endothelial tissue especially if you're able to do the contrast what other able to do the contrast what other hormetic mechanisms are exciting for you hormetic mechanisms are exciting for you the most important thing to mention is the most important thing to mention is the mitochondria the mitochondria are the mitochondria the mitochondria are the key to longevity I saw a clip from the key to longevity I saw a clip from David Sinclair who says well the most David Sinclair who says well the most important thing is your blood glucose important thing is your blood glucose he's right and he's wrong blood glucose he's right and he's wrong blood glucose is a symptom of damaged mitochondria is a symptom of damaged mitochondria your mitochondria need to be stressed

your mitochondria need to be stressed and recover just like your muscles do and recover just like your muscles do just like your skin needs sunshine and just like your skin needs sunshine and it needs Darkness your mitochondria need it needs Darkness your mitochondria need that hormetic stress and then they need that hormetic stress and then they need time away from the carbs they need lower time away from the carbs they need lower concentrations of seed oils in your diet concentrations of seed oils in your diet so that they can keep the cell membranes so that they can keep the cell membranes and the mitochondrial membranes in good and the mitochondrial membranes in good shape they need good light hygiene so shape they need good light hygiene so they can make their own melatonin when they can make their own melatonin when you stress your mitochondria which could you stress your mitochondria which could be through exercise or it could be be through exercise or it could be through cold exposure or it could be through cold exposure or it could be from eating that super that half a from eating that super that half a pumpkin pie that I had for Thanksgiving pumpkin pie that I had for Thanksgiving right you got to give the mitochondria right you got to give the mitochondria time to recover there's mofas which is time to recover there's mofas which is elimination of the damaged mitochondria elimination of the damaged mitochondria and there's mitobiogenesis one of the and there's mitobiogenesis one of the fastest ways to stimulate mitobiogenesis fastest ways to stimulate mitobiogenesis is cold water therapy interesting yeah is cold water therapy interesting yeah and so mitobiogenesis but also mitophagy and so mitobiogenesis but also mitophagy as well or just both this is an animal as well or just both this is an animal study uh because you can dissect the study uh because you can dissect the animals you can examine the brown fat animals you can examine the brown fat you can uh but the the mitochondria in

you can uh but the the mitochondria in Rat are not so much different than the Rat are not so much different than the mitochondria in human beings that we mitochondria in human beings that we have to be super concerned there are have to be super concerned there are things when you're moving from animal things when you're moving from animal models to human beings that we should be models to human beings that we should be cons super concerned about that the cons super concerned about that the mitochondria studies that show cold this mitochondria studies that show cold this is acute not chronic but brief bouts of is acute not chronic but brief bouts of acute cold exposure will stimulate acute cold exposure will stimulate myasia and mitobiogenesis I think are myasia and mitobiogenesis I think are pretty reliable and I say this because pretty reliable and I say this because when you do every day sort of s to 10 when you do every day sort of s to 10 days you will Recruit new Brown fat it's days you will Recruit new Brown fat it's a process called beiging of the white a process called beiging of the white fat that will restore Brown fat to your fat that will restore Brown fat to your body and what makes it beige new body and what makes it beige new mitochondria we can measure this in mitochondria we can measure this in human beings that we're making new human beings that we're making new mitochondria all the time and we can put mitochondria all the time and we can put ourselves in the right sort of hormetic ourselves in the right sort of hormetic conditions to stimulate that to optimize conditions to stimulate that to optimize that that's amazing so that's one of the that that's amazing so that's one of the is that what gets you more excited about is that what gets you more excited about it is that one of because a lot of it is that one of because a lot of people talk about dopamine you get I people talk about dopamine you get I heard you say is it a 3X increase in heard you say is it a 3X increase in dopamine well this is from one study dopamine well this is from one study that hubman loves it's coming out of that hubman loves it's coming out of Poland and it was

Poland and it was 250% which means three and a half times 250% which means three and a half times that's a lot of dopamine and I'm not that's a lot of dopamine and I'm not knocking it but we haven't seen um knocking it but we haven't seen um reliable studies that have reproduced it reliable studies that have reproduced it since then now you know the feeling you since then now you know the feeling you get the feeling of euphoria you know get the feeling of euphoria you know you're getting the adrenaline and so you you're getting the adrenaline and so you don't really need to draw blood samples don't really need to draw blood samples to say yeah I think I'm getting a dope to say yeah I think I'm getting a dope hit off of this and it's all endogenous hit off of this and it's all endogenous rather than getting it from some rather than getting it from some injection or something else that you're injection or something else that you're getting out of your body and our getting out of your body and our intuition say if you're making your own intuition say if you're making your own dopamine and you're earning it by doing dopamine and you're earning it by doing something hard well that's probably a something hard well that's probably a lot better for your psychology no 100% lot better for your psychology no 100% And it's I mean it could create a And it's I mean it could create a propensity for you to want to continue propensity for you to want to continue to do it which would lead to the health to do it which would lead to the health benefits it has happened to me where I benefits it has happened to me where I crave the cold and U I get to miss it crave the cold and U I get to miss it after a couple of days uh I went down to after a couple of days uh I went down to Columbia carda Columbia the cor asked me Columbia carda Columbia the cor asked me to to goity it's lovely but did you know the

goity it's lovely but did you know the ocean there is warm I'm going out in ocean there is warm I'm going out in thean you're like get nothing here the thean you're like get nothing here the tap water is warm everything is warm I tap water is warm everything is warm I spent a week working for the Army Corp spent a week working for the Army Corp when I came back I experienced some of when I came back I experienced some of those new sort of like novice like oh my those new sort of like novice like oh my God this is so cold what am I doing I'm God this is so cold what am I doing I'm up to my neck and I I'm going to die in up to my neck and I I'm going to die in here I lost some of the psychological here I lost some of the psychological acclamation interesting yeah cart Hana acclamation interesting yeah cart Hana uh Columbia is just a beautiful country uh Columbia is just a beautiful country uh entirely but yeah I think the it's uh entirely but yeah I think the it's interesting in cahen and Columbia Latin interesting in cahen and Columbia Latin America sauna is not a thing no people America sauna is not a thing no people are into more cold but yeah they're are into more cold but yeah they're definitely not into the sauna which definitely not into the sauna which makes sense um gosh a lot of great makes sense um gosh a lot of great questions here Tom so much commentary questions here Tom so much commentary yeah yeah um amazing stuff well tsg was yeah yeah um amazing stuff well tsg was coming back about arthritis and this is coming back about arthritis and this is an important thing arthritis is not a an important thing arthritis is not a contraindication for cold but I can contraindication for cold but I can understand why tsg would be hesitant understand why tsg would be hesitant about it there is a medical safety nurse about it there is a medical safety nurse she's a medical safety specialist so she

she's a medical safety specialist so she watches the medications for watches the medications for counteractions between them and she's in counteractions between them and she's in California and she suffers from California and she suffers from rheumatoid arthritis she wrote to me and rheumatoid arthritis she wrote to me and she said I reached the point where I she said I reached the point where I couldn't open pill bottles and I couldn't open pill bottles and I couldn't handle the equipment now she's couldn't handle the equipment now she's only in her early 40s she said my only in her early 40s she said my boyfriend who's a firefighter got me boyfriend who's a firefighter got me into the cold therapy symptoms gone she into the cold therapy symptoms gone she sleeps great she wakes up the next day sleeps great she wakes up the next day she can move her hands now if she stops she can move her hands now if she stops with cold therapy the symptoms of with cold therapy the symptoms of arthritis will come back rheumatoid arthritis will come back rheumatoid arthritis is an autoimmune disorder and arthritis is an autoimmune disorder and those are very difficult to reverse those are very difficult to reverse however she can manage her pain without however she can manage her pain without the meds that she was on without the the meds that she was on without the injections that she used steroid injections that she used steroid injections to bring down the injections to bring down the inflammation by doing regular cold inflammation by doing regular cold plunge therapy so I wouldn't want plunge therapy so I wouldn't want arthritis to stop tsg from trying it um arthritis to stop tsg from trying it um and you've got to listen to your body and you've got to listen to your body it's going to be very frightening to do it's going to be very frightening to do it when you first get started oh it when you first get started oh absolutely no it can be uh very very absolutely no it can be uh very very challenging I want to but I mean there's

challenging I want to but I mean there's just like with exercise the first time just like with exercise the first time you go and squat you're going to be sore you go and squat you're going to be sore for a while yeah but um I think the for a while yeah but um I think the long-term benefits it's been something long-term benefits it's been something that I got into just going in the lake that I got into just going in the lake you know in 2015 I built my little you know in 2015 I built my little galvanized stock tank unit that I was galvanized stock tank unit that I was using then invested in the Rosco so uh using then invested in the Rosco so uh which is where I want to you know kind which is where I want to you know kind of finish things off there's a so many of finish things off there's a so many products out there right now when it products out there right now when it comes to cold immersion I mean it's comes to cold immersion I mean it's really quite impressive how the really quite impressive how the marketplace has responded to Consumer marketplace has responded to Consumer demand but in my opinion the Rosco Forge demand but in my opinion the Rosco Forge is the best on the market for many is the best on the market for many different reasons but if people are different reasons but if people are looking if they want to try a Morosco looking if they want to try a Morosco you can go to your website and people you can go to your website and people can actually find one locally yeah yeah can actually find one locally yeah yeah maybe there's some commercial facilities maybe there's some commercial facilities that have it and you know they charge that have it and you know they charge like 25 bucks a plunge or something like like 25 bucks a plunge or something like that there's some things to look for if that there's some things to look for if you're on a website looking for an a you're on a website looking for an a cold plunge or an ice bath and it's cold plunge or an ice bath and it's advertising to you cutting edge leading advertising to you cutting edge leading innovated technology innovated technology then it's a fraud Refrigeration is over

then it's a fraud Refrigeration is over a hundred years old there are no like a hundred years old there are no like super new Innovative I don't care super new Innovative I don't care whether it's links into your smartphone whether it's links into your smartphone or whatever it does it's a refrigeration or whatever it does it's a refrigeration machine and I get emails from Chinese machine and I get emails from Chinese manufacturers two or three a week saying manufacturers two or three a week saying don't you want to like sell our they are don't you want to like sell our they are all the same piece of equipment there all the same piece of equipment there are a few companies that have innovated are a few companies that have innovated the things about morasco is it makes ice the things about morasco is it makes ice nobody gets colder than that we use nobody gets colder than that we use ozone an exclusive oone there are no ozone an exclusive oone there are no chemicals there's no chlorine I don't chemicals there's no chlorine I don't want it anywhere near my customers or want it anywhere near my customers or near me there's no chlorine stabilizers near me there's no chlorine stabilizers or agents that you have to add and it's or agents that you have to add and it's grounded and this is a huge one when the grounded and this is a huge one when the body of water and the tub is connected body of water and the tub is connected electrically to ground then you get the electrically to ground then you get the grounding benefit which you would get in grounding benefit which you would get in the ocean or you would get in the Stream the ocean or you would get in the Stream in this respect Morosco is the second in this respect Morosco is the second best thing to Nature so if you're I best thing to Nature so if you're I understand not everybody can afford a understand not everybody can afford a Morosco and morasco is not for everyone Morosco and morasco is not for everyone not everyone needs to get down to 33° so not everyone needs to get down to 33° so if you're looking at one of these that

if you're looking at one of these that says you know we are super solved this says you know we are super solved this incredible problem you're talking about incredible problem you're talking about I don't know a pizza delivery guy who I don't know a pizza delivery guy who opened up a website or something when opened up a website or something when you're getting started desert plunge is you're getting started desert plunge is a good brand it's a good brand it's $34,000 Matt he's down in Tempe he's $34,000 Matt he's down in Tempe he's honest he will honor his warranty and honest he will honor his warranty and it's a good place to get started it's it's a good place to get started it's not grounded and it won't CCH you not grounded and it won't CCH you freezing a lot of our customers have freezing a lot of our customers have called us and said you know what I want called us and said you know what I want this every day I want to go harder core this every day I want to go harder core uh I probably should have started with uh I probably should have started with morasco but I'm ready to step up and I morasco but I'm ready to step up and I encourage that yeah that's awesome so um encourage that yeah that's awesome so um the businesses that are doing this are the businesses that are doing this are these like uh wellness centers are they these like uh wellness centers are they gyms they're this has been a phenomena gyms they're this has been a phenomena it is um unlike the corporation to adopt it is um unlike the corporation to adopt one of these sort of things that they one of these sort of things that they say well it's fatty or it's Leading Edge say well it's fatty or it's Leading Edge it's too far out there but there has it's too far out there but there has been a CAU cage industry of people who been a CAU cage industry of people who quit their corporate job and say I'm

quit their corporate job and say I'm going to get a couple of sonas I'm going going to get a couple of sonas I'm going to get some cold plunge equipment I'm to get some cold plunge equipment I'm going to get some red lights maybe I'll going to get some red lights maybe I'll mix in some halotherapy and some mix in some halotherapy and some compression sleeves I'm going to create compression sleeves I'm going to create a Wellness Center these have popped up a Wellness Center these have popped up all over the country they're doing all over the country they're doing really well so we have extended really well so we have extended sometimes uh ourselves to carry sometimes uh ourselves to carry financing for some people who are really financing for some people who are really out on the edge because we believed in out on the edge because we believed in what they were trying to do we do less what they were trying to do we do less of that now um the space is getting more of that now um the space is getting more crowded uh people are starting to crowded uh people are starting to franchise ideas there's xpt wants to franchise ideas there's xpt wants to franchise Dave asprey wants to franchise franchise Dave asprey wants to franchise and I have a feeling it's going to get and I have a feeling it's going to get more standardized but right now we're in more standardized but right now we're in this sort of metaphorical Wild West this this sort of metaphorical Wild West this Pro people don't know what business Pro people don't know what business model is going to work they're trying a model is going to work they're trying a lot of different ones and there might be lot of different ones and there might be somebody good near you that has an somebody good near you that has an approach that you're never going to find approach that you're never going to find anywhere else yeah so that's great use anywhere else yeah so that's great use your website to figure it out and see your website to figure it out and see where people I mean I have my favorites where people I mean I have my favorites there's sweat Shack in Tennessee think there's sweat Shack in Tennessee think they're doing a great job there's they're doing a great job there's outlive labs in Florida there's Revival

outlive labs in Florida there's Revival in Southern California and now I've just in Southern California and now I've just offended every customer that I didn't offended every customer that I didn't mention but I'm saying these are the mention but I'm saying these are the people that I'm in touch with regularly people that I'm in touch with regularly that's awesome and are they doing they that's awesome and are they doing they have a like a barrel sauna or what kind have a like a barrel sauna or what kind of sauna are they doing yeah they're are of sauna are they doing yeah they're are all different kinds um the infrared saas all different kinds um the infrared saas have become super popular and they don't have become super popular and they don't work with morasco that I mean if you work with morasco that I mean if you want to get your sweat on and you're want to get your sweat on and you're getting into infrared and you're at 150 getting into infrared and you're at 150 degrees and it feels good I don't want degrees and it feels good I don't want to knock it but I had one and when I to knock it but I had one and when I would go from morasco into the infrared would go from morasco into the infrared it would take me 45 minutes to work up a it would take me 45 minutes to work up a sweat I really like what you have with sweat I really like what you have with your wood stove and maybe it's 220 in your wood stove and maybe it's 220 in there sometimes but I don't have to sit there sometimes but I don't have to sit there forever in order to start sweating there forever in order to start sweating yeah I mean that's if you look at if you yeah I mean that's if you look at if you want to do SAA I mean this is what you want to do SAA I mean this is what you know people have been doing in bellarus know people have been doing in bellarus Finland Sweden Norway I mean all parts Finland Sweden Norway I mean all parts of uh Eastern Europe so you want to do of uh Eastern Europe so you want to do the Wood Fired stove that's the way to the Wood Fired stove that's the way to do it um and the I live in an apartment do it um and the I live in an apartment building they're not about to let right

building they're not about to let right and so if you got to get to a 220 volt and so if you got to get to a 220 volt heater and you're getting one of these heater and you're getting one of these that will get you up over 180 then that will get you up over 180 then you're in that Realm of the research you're in that Realm of the research studies you're saying okay these are the studies you're saying okay these are the temperatures that the fins have really temperatures that the fins have really done a lot of work on yeah we don't done a lot of work on yeah we don't really know about infrared right right really know about infrared right right no it's true I think it's a nice way no it's true I think it's a nice way just like you mentioned there's other just like you mentioned there's other tools out there I mean I started with a tools out there I mean I started with a galvaniz stock tank and I also started galvaniz stock tank and I also started with an infed on them you just some what with an infed on them you just some what you got to do in a small space um and you got to do in a small space um and then but you know the the gold standard then but you know the the gold standard would be you know the morosa forge and a would be you know the morosa forge and a woodf fired stove sauna in my opinion woodf fired stove sauna in my opinion you yeah that's the the way to go so you yeah that's the the way to go so friends thank you as always for tuning friends thank you as always for tuning in if you're enjoying the content please in if you're enjoying the content please hit that like button I really really hit that like button I really really appreciate and Tom does as well your appreciate and Tom does as well your amazing questions uh a lot of great amazing questions uh a lot of great questions we'll address one more here questions we'll address one more here from m m ball a bathtub and ice cubes at from m m ball a bathtub and ice cubes at home do it it's a great way to start home do it it's a great way to start awesome uh you go down to the Quicky or awesome uh you go down to the Quicky or whatever is near you uh you pick up 100

whatever is near you uh you pick up 100 lb of ice now it gets old fast but if lb of ice now it gets old fast but if you want to find out if this is you want to find out if this is something that you're interested in and something that you're interested in and you don't want to spend $20,000 on a you don't want to spend $20,000 on a Morosco then you spend 20 bucks on Ice Morosco then you spend 20 bucks on Ice you put it in the bathtub especially if you put it in the bathtub especially if your tap water is already sort of cold your tap water is already sort of cold now in Phoenix the tap water gets up to now in Phoenix the tap water gets up to 88° in the summertime it's just not an 88° in the summertime it's just not an option for me and I got so tired of option for me and I got so tired of buying ice at the gas station that me buying ice at the gas station that me and my co- founder Jason we sat down and and my co- founder Jason we sat down and we said we ought to be able to figure we said we ought to be able to figure this out we're engineers and that's how this out we're engineers and that's how Morosco Forge started it was a couple of Morosco Forge started it was a couple of guys frustrated with the pouring ice guys frustrated with the pouring ice cubes into the tub that's amazing that's cubes into the tub that's amazing that's a cool story awesome Tom really a cool story awesome Tom really appreciate you coming on the show been a appreciate you coming on the show been a pleasure appreciate all of you being pleasure appreciate all of you being here and uh again your live questions here and uh again your live questions were amazing so uh have an awesome rest were amazing so uh have an awesome rest of your day appreciate your likes your of your day appreciate your likes your comments your shares we'll catch you on comments your shares we'll catch you on a future live later this week take care a future live later this week take care now all now all right cool felt great that was awesome right cool felt great that was awesome yeah yeah um and I'll tweak

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Recovery Is Contextual

After weight training, cold is usually not the ideal choice when muscle growth and strength are the goal. The reason is simple. Lifting asks the body to adapt, and some of the discomfort after training belongs to that process. If you blunt it too quickly, you can counteract the signal you worked to create.

The key here is to preload the workout with the ice bath.

That does not make post-training cold wrong. It makes it contextual. In competition, the priority can shift from long-term adaptation to returning to performance by the next day. A multi-day event, tournament, or demanding schedule may call for reduced soreness, better mobility, and faster readiness. In that setting, a cold plunge can be a deliberate recovery tool.

Training has a different horizon. When you lift to build strength or muscle, you are not only trying to feel restored by tomorrow. You are asking the body to receive the message and rebuild with more capacity. Post-workout cold can work against that message. It may help you feel recovered while reducing the adaptation you intended.

The alternative is to move the plunge before the session. Seager argues that pre-training cold can preserve much of the speedy recovery benefit without counteracting the work that follows. You still receive the jolt of cold, the demand for composure, and the transition into alert movement. Then the training session becomes the next signal, not the signal being muted.

Duration depends on the gap between cold and work. If you are exercising immediately, the plunge can be shorter because the body moves from cold exposure straight into heat production and effort. Seager’s personal pattern is two to three minutes in 33 degree water, then immediate movement with a steel mace, kettlebells, push-ups, and pull-ups. The cold primes the session; movement completes the transition.

If there is a delay, a longer plunge can help retain the feeling of cold until training begins. Seager gives the example of a 30 minute drive to the gym. In that case, extracting more heat may keep the cold signal present long enough to matter. The protocol shifts with the logistics of your life.

This is the difference between a routine and a protocol. A routine repeats because it is familiar. A protocol adapts because the goal is clear. Cold before training, cold after competition, and cold away from training all have a place. Recovery becomes intelligent when it serves the outcome in front of you.

Temperature, Tolerance, And The Female Response

The right temperature begins with the response it creates. Seager describes the gasp reflex as a useful threshold for metabolic benefit. When the cold makes you catch your breath, it has activated the sympathetic nervous system and can activate brown fat if you have it. In plain language, the body has noticed. You become alert, present, and engaged.

Psychological resilience asks for a deeper challenge. Seager connects colder temperatures with heart rate variability, a measure of the heart’s capacity to adapt to stress and changing demands. Higher heart rate variability is often associated with better psychological resilience, which the reader feels as steadiness under pressure. Cold that genuinely commands attention can train the pause between stimulus and response.

For beginners, water in the 50s can be enough. The first requirement is not heroism. It is a clear cold signal that you can meet without losing control of the breath. Once you acclimate, that same temperature can become unremarkable, and the protocol must change if the goal is still adaptation.

Cold acclimation can happen quickly. In the conversation, Seager and the host note that many people adapt in about ten days. What felt intimidating at first becomes familiar. You take a breath, enter the water, and remember that you have done this before. The ritual becomes less about shock and more about composure.

The psychological benefits, they only really kick in at those temperatures that scare you.

Sleepiness after a plunge deserves attention. Some people sleep better when they use cold early in the day, but daytime fatigue can signal too much exposure, too much cold, or poor timing. A protocol should leave you clearer, not depleted. If cold drains the rest of the day, the dose has exceeded the purpose.

The female response may differ in meaningful ways. Seager points to research using a cold pressor test, where women placed one hand in ice water and showed an immediate rise in salivary testosterone greater than men. He explains that women produce testosterone not only in the ovaries, but also through adrenal glands, skin, and fat-cell pathways. Cold stimulation may reach those pathways directly, with the felt outcome being vitality, alertness, and a stronger sense of capacity.

Those observations do not turn every hand plunge into a complete practice. They show that the body can respond to cold stimulation without full-body immersion, and that women should not be treated as an afterthought in cold research. The protocol still belongs to the person using it. Temperature, duration, timing, and recovery all deserve respect.

Evidence, Self-Testing, And Contrast

Skepticism belongs in this conversation. Strong hormone claims require strong evidence, and cold exposure has moved faster in culture than it has in research. Seager is clear that his own labs and the lab reports sent to him are case evidence. They justify a better question. They do not close the case.

The current evidence has layers. There are personal lab stories, older studies, and small signals that point in a useful direction. There is also a clear need for a modern clinical trial that tests timing, temperature, duration, sex differences, and training context with discipline. Until that exists, certainty would be premature. Curiosity is enough.

Personal feedback still matters. Your labs, sleep, energy, performance, mood, and recovery are not universal proof, but they are meaningful data for your own protocol. Seager frames this as the value of an n equals one self-experiment. You do not need to force science to prove your daily experience before you observe it with care.

The proof for you is in your own labs and in your own experience.

The key is to avoid turning self-testing into ideology. Measure what you can, notice what you feel, and keep the goal visible. If the plunge improves clarity and readiness before training, that matters. If it makes you sleepy, weak, or disconnected from the rest of the day, that matters too. The body gives feedback before it gives certainty.

The same rigor applies to sauna. Many people cite Finnish sauna research as evidence for heat alone, but Seager challenges that reading. In Finland, sauna culture often includes hot and cold together: heat, snow, lakes, and repeated contrast. The cold is so embedded that it can disappear from the way the research is discussed.

That distinction changes the interpretation. If a study reflects a culture where heat and cold are paired, then using the findings to support sauna-only practice is incomplete. Heat may carry benefits, and cold may carry benefits, but the broader ritual may be doing more than either element alone. Contrast is not an accessory. It may be the organizing principle.

This is why contrast therapy holds our attention. Heat expands the experience; cold sharpens it. Moving between them asks the body to adapt, return, and find equilibrium again. Over time, that ritual can become a sanctuary for resilience, recovery, and longevity. Not because it is extreme, but because it is deliberate.

Wim's Wise Words

A second take, from someone who's lived it.

If you take one thing from this, make it this: cold is powerful because it asks for a decision. You are not just getting into water. You are choosing a signal.

That signal should match the day. If I am training to build strength, I want the work to land. I do not want to mute the message I just created. So I keep cold away from the end of that session, unless the priority is simple readiness for another demand soon after.

For most readers, I would start with cold before movement. Not as punishment. Not as a test of character. As a precise primer. Two calm minutes can be enough when the water is honest and the training starts soon after. Get in, find your breath, let the first wave pass, then move with control.

Where I’d Start

Choose one training day each week and place the plunge before it. Keep the rest of the variables quiet. Same time. Similar temperature. Similar session. Then pay attention to what changes: focus, steadiness, warm-up quality, strength, appetite, sleep, and how you feel the next morning.

You do not need to chase the coldest possible number. You need a temperature that gets your full attention without stealing your composure. The breath tells the truth. If you can meet the first gasp and return to control, the ritual is doing its work. If you leave scattered, drained, or flat, reduce the dose.

I like cold when it sharpens the room. I dislike it when it becomes theatre. The difference is simple. A good protocol gives you clarity after the discomfort. A poor one leaves you proud of enduring something and less capable for the day ahead.

If testosterone is the reason you are interested, stay especially grounded. Labs can be useful, but one impressive number is not a philosophy. Track your own data if that matters to you, and read adjacent views with care, including Cold First, Then Train and Cold Water, Honest Science. The goal is not to win an argument. The goal is to build a practice you can trust.

None of this replaces the basics. Sleep still leads. Food still matters. Strength work still has to be done. Cold can prime resilience, but it cannot compensate for a life that never lets the body recover.

Use heat when you want to soften. Use cold when you want to sharpen. Use contrast when you want to practice returning to equilibrium. The mastery is not in going extreme. It is in knowing what the moment is asking from you.