How Long to Cold Plunge for Recovery: Hormesis | Vitruvian

Video·Dr. E the NP with a PhD™·8 min read·November 18, 2025

Hormesis reframes mild stress as a signal: with the right dose, cold, heat, fasting, movement, and light can help the body build resilience instead of simply returning to baseline.

The Signal Beneath Stress

Hormesis is not a wellness trend. It is the body’s capacity to receive a controlled stressor, interpret it as information, and build greater resilience through response. The stress is not the point on its own. The adaptation is the point.

Cold, heat, hunger, sunlight, and movement all speak to the body in a language older than comfort. Before constant food and climate control, we all met these signals often. The body learned to read them with precision.

A cold plunge tells the body that warmth requires attention. A period without food tells the body that fuel needs flexibility. A deliberate training session tells the body that strength, coordination, and recovery matter. These are not punishments. They are messages the body can use.

The benefit comes when the signal is clear, tolerable, and repeated with care. One exposure can feel powerful, but resilience builds through cumulative rhythm. You do not become more adaptable in a single moment; you teach adaptation through practice.

This is why protocol matters. Dose shapes the response. Repetition gives the body a pattern to learn from. Recovery gives that pattern a place to settle. Without recovery, stress remains strain. With recovery, stress becomes instruction.

We approach hormesis as a ritual of deliberate challenge and deliberate return. The cold is followed by breath. The effort is followed by rest. The fast is followed by nourishment. The body does not need intensity for its own sake. It needs a signal strong enough to notice and spacious enough to integrate.

Resilience is cumulative. It gathers through small, precise exposures that ask the body to prepare more intelligently next time. Over time, those exposures create a steadier equilibrium. You are not chasing discomfort. You are training capacity.

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we get some sort of stressor, some sort of stimuli, [music] of stimuli, [music] and then your body is going to start and then your body is going to start responding kind of unbeknownst to you. responding kind of unbeknownst to you. The more times you do this, hopefully The more times you do this, hopefully forever, you will reap a cumulative forever, you will reap a cumulative effect. It doesn't have to be a effect. It doesn't have to be a substance. So, we're going to talk about substance. So, we're going to talk about different types of hormetic stressors different types of hormetic stressors like being cold, being hot, being in the like being cold, being hot, being in the sun, being hungry. These are hormetic sun, being hungry. These are hormetic stressors. So, it kind of makes stressors. So, it kind of makes evolutionary sense that our body evolutionary sense that our body developed a way to utilize that those developed a way to utilize that those signals like, "Oh, I'm too cold. What signals like, "Oh, I'm too cold. What does that mean I have to do to give it does that mean I have to do to give it messages that it needed to upgrade messages that it needed to upgrade something?" something?" Welcome to the Medical Disruptor, a Welcome to the Medical Disruptor, a place where well-versed humans can ask place where well-versed humans can ask the hard questions and get the hard questions and get evidence-based answers you won't find evidence-based answers you won't find anywhere else. Our community is always anywhere else. Our community is always informed, empowered, and sciencebacked. informed, empowered, and sciencebacked. Every guest on the show must be Every guest on the show must be clinically trained MD, NP, PA, and clinically trained MD, NP, PA, and researchers who want more and expand researchers who want more and expand beyond their conventional education to beyond their conventional education to find deeper answers for complex health find deeper answers for complex health challenges. I'm Dr. E, the NP with a challenges. I'm Dr. E, the NP with a PhD, and I help smart, well-versed

PhD, and I help smart, well-versed humans go from medically gaslit to humans go from medically gaslit to medically empowered. Today's medically empowered. Today's conversation is with Dr. Eleanor Stein, conversation is with Dr. Eleanor Stein, and she is one of my favorites. This is and she is one of my favorites. This is her second episode with me, and there her second episode with me, and there will be a third one coming up soon. And will be a third one coming up soon. And if you've heard our last episode, you if you've heard our last episode, you already know she doesn't bring opinions. already know she doesn't bring opinions. She brings data and lived experience. She brings data and lived experience. Dr. Stein is one of the leading Dr. Stein is one of the leading physician researchers in neuroplasticity physician researchers in neuroplasticity and complex chronic illness. And today and complex chronic illness. And today she's back to explain the concept of she's back to explain the concept of hormesis. It's how precise stressors hormesis. It's how precise stressors like heat, cold, fasting, movement, and like heat, cold, fasting, movement, and light can literally rewire our biology light can literally rewire our biology for healing and longevity. This isn't for healing and longevity. This isn't trend-based wellness. This is trend-based wellness. This is physiology. and what you're about to physiology. and what you're about to hear may completely reframe how you hear may completely reframe how you think about resilience and aging. think about resilience and aging. >> Dr. Eleanor Stein, I'm so excited to >> Dr. Eleanor Stein, I'm so excited to have you back. have you back. >> It's a pleasure to be back. Thank you. >> It's a pleasure to be back. Thank you. >> It's always great when I have to do >> It's always great when I have to do homework before my my guest comes on. homework before my my guest comes on. So, I had to do some homework [laughter] So, I had to do some homework [laughter] for [clears throat] for [clears throat] I love that there is so much to talk

I love that there is so much to talk about. Um, last time my mind was blown about. Um, last time my mind was blown and I think we even have one more after and I think we even have one more after this because you are just a a wealth of this because you are just a a wealth of information. I'm so happy to have you. information. I'm so happy to have you. Um, but before we get to today's topic, Um, but before we get to today's topic, which is hormesis. And if you don't know which is hormesis. And if you don't know what that is, don't worry. I didn't know what that is, don't worry. I didn't know either. So, look it up while we're either. So, look it up while we're talking. talking. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, let's do like a quick circle back >> Um, let's do like a quick circle back for last time we talked about for last time we talked about neuroplasticity. Right. neuroplasticity. Right. >> And just tell us again what >> And just tell us again what neuroplasticity is. neuroplasticity is. >> Sure. So, neuroplasticity is the brain's >> Sure. So, neuroplasticity is the brain's capacity to change as a result of lived capacity to change as a result of lived experience. That experience could be experience. That experience could be things I'm doing, things I'm thinking, things I'm doing, things I'm thinking, things I'm feeling, even yeah, thinking, things I'm feeling, even yeah, thinking, I guess, planning. So, every basically I guess, planning. So, every basically everything that's going a um on in my everything that's going a um on in my brain at any given time, what fires brain at any given time, what fires together wires together. So, whatever I together wires together. So, whatever I do repetitively, do repetitively, I have the same thoughts, I practice I have the same thoughts, I practice guitar, um I have the same, say,

guitar, um I have the same, say, traumatic response to certain things in traumatic response to certain things in my life. those things are going to my life. those things are going to hardwire and become my new defaults or hardwire and become my new defaults or maybe a a simpler term is just habits, maybe a a simpler term is just habits, right? We form habits of thinking, right? We form habits of thinking, feeling, and acting in our brain. And feeling, and acting in our brain. And then sometimes those habits serve us and then sometimes those habits serve us and sometimes they don't. If they don't, for sometimes they don't. If they don't, for example, if they're reinforcing trauma, example, if they're reinforcing trauma, if they're related to chronic pain, if they're related to chronic pain, sensitivity symptoms, etc. That's where sensitivity symptoms, etc. That's where neuroplasticity based practice comes in neuroplasticity based practice comes in as a tool to help us unlearn that habit as a tool to help us unlearn that habit and get back to a healthier way of and get back to a healthier way of being. being. >> Amazing. And I know we're only doing a >> Amazing. And I know we're only doing a quick recap for those of you. That's it. quick recap for those of you. That's it. >> Because we have other things to talk >> Because we have other things to talk about today, but it's really cool. So, about today, but it's really cool. So, it's just like just like you learn how it's just like just like you learn how to play tennis and you keep doing tennis to play tennis and you keep doing tennis over and over again, you get really good over and over again, you get really good at it. You can get really good at at it. You can get really good at anxiety, you can get really good at anxiety, you can get really good at depression, you can get really good at depression, you can get really good at pain. Um and then I your website for pain. Um and then I your website for anyone who's dealing with those things

anyone who's dealing with those things really teaches the practice the learning really teaches the practice the learning the non-pane pathway or the the non-pane pathway or the non-depression pathway. So um anyone out non-depression pathway. So um anyone out there consider that and then we have to there consider that and then we have to talk a little bit about your medical talk a little bit about your medical gasing experience. We'll get to but gasing experience. We'll get to but let's get to hormesis. let's get to hormesis. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> What should we do first? What should we >> What should we do first? What should we do first? Should we figure out your what do first? Should we figure out your what happened to your foot or should we go to happened to your foot or should we go to >> it's a cautionary tale. I'm happy >> it's a cautionary tale. I'm happy [clears throat] to share it. It can be [clears throat] to share it. It can be pretty pretty short story. pretty pretty short story. >> Tell us your medical guideline story. >> Tell us your medical guideline story. >> So, one of the things that happens um >> So, one of the things that happens um that's affiliated with complex chronic that's affiliated with complex chronic disease meaning myalgia, disease meaning myalgia, sephilomiolitis, longcoid, fibromyalgia sephilomiolitis, longcoid, fibromyalgia is uh the connective tissue in our body is uh the connective tissue in our body sometimes just isn't strong enough to sometimes just isn't strong enough to hold everything in place. So, people who hold everything in place. So, people who have that problem tend to have a lot of have that problem tend to have a lot of injuries and we'll just say gimpiness in injuries and we'll just say gimpiness in my case. Is that like the ellers danlos my case. Is that like the ellers danlos syndrome or syndrome or >> Yeah, exactly. So, er's danlos would be >> Yeah, exactly. So, er's danlos would be one example of connective tissue one example of connective tissue disorder. Most people in the community

disorder. Most people in the community don't have formal um like they don't don't have formal um like they don't have the genetic markers to prove that have the genetic markers to prove that they have a danlo. They have what's they have a danlo. They have what's called the hyper I think it's called the called the hyper I think it's called the hyper mobile type. hyper mobile type. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, that's really a clinical diagnosis. >> So, that's really a clinical diagnosis. Anyway, I've had, you know, muscular Anyway, I've had, you know, muscular scaladal issues my whole life that scaladal issues my whole life that resulted in a knee surgery. And then resulted in a knee surgery. And then when you get one thing changed, guess when you get one thing changed, guess what? All the bones are connected to the what? All the bones are connected to the other bones. other bones. >> Yeah. And so I ended up with a foot >> Yeah. And so I ended up with a foot problem. I went to probably including my problem. I went to probably including my physios, podiatrist, orthopedic surgeon, physios, podiatrist, orthopedic surgeon, probably four or five people and they probably four or five people and they all missed the diagnosis. all missed the diagnosis. uh which was something not that serious uh which was something not that serious and curable, a Morton's nuroma, and then and curable, a Morton's nuroma, and then instead they diagnosed me with a bunion instead they diagnosed me with a bunion and severe arthritis in my toe that and severe arthritis in my toe that needed surgery. needed surgery. >> Whoa. And all you had was a Morton

>> Whoa. And all you had was a Morton nuroma. How was that missed? nuroma. How was that missed? >> Yes, indeed. I mean, I did have a bunion >> Yes, indeed. I mean, I did have a bunion and I did have arthritis, and I did have arthritis, but looking back, they were treating the but looking back, they were treating the X-ray, not the person. My X-ray looked X-ray, not the person. My X-ray looked bad. The amount of pain I had in the in bad. The amount of pain I had in the in that part of my foot was not like was that part of my foot was not like was not limiting. It was the nuroma that was not limiting. It was the nuroma that was the really severe pain and nobody caught the really severe pain and nobody caught it. So guess what? I ended up having it. So guess what? I ended up having bunion surgery. bunion surgery. >> Oh god, that is so intense. >> Oh god, that is so intense. >> Bunion. I had a special kind. So just it >> Bunion. I had a special kind. So just it was uh much less intense. I came down to was uh much less intense. I came down to the states actually for the surgery. But the states actually for the surgery. But nevertheless, it fuses your toe joint. nevertheless, it fuses your toe joint. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And it shifts your gate. Yeah. >> And it shifts your gate. Yeah. >> And none of the doctors that I consulted >> And none of the doctors that I consulted four, fully four surgeons I consulted four, fully four surgeons I consulted told me this would happen. And because told me this would happen. And because I'm hyper mobile, it has more impact. I'm hyper mobile, it has more impact. Everything has more impact than in say a Everything has more impact than in say a normal connective tissue person. So now

normal connective tissue person. So now I've got some pretty severe multiple I've got some pretty severe multiple severe pain problems in my foot that severe pain problems in my foot that have brought me back home. Some of you have brought me back home. Some of you who have followed me know that I've been who have followed me know that I've been traveling for the past year, but I'm traveling for the past year, but I'm back home right now to see if I can get back home right now to see if I can get some help with it. some help with it. >> You know, that's so interesting. You >> You know, that's so interesting. You surface so many things there. Um, surface so many things there. Um, treating the X-ray, treating the image treating the X-ray, treating the image is is a problem. Um, it's one of the is is a problem. Um, it's one of the reasons I really don't like to image if reasons I really don't like to image if I can help it. Like if somebody comes in I can help it. Like if somebody comes in and there is no clinical reason, like and there is no clinical reason, like I'm not worried that there's let's just I'm not worried that there's let's just say back pain and I'm not worried about say back pain and I'm not worried about cancer. I'm not worried about a tumor. cancer. I'm not worried about a tumor. They don't have any of those signs. I They don't have any of those signs. I often say to my patients, I really often say to my patients, I really recommend for you not to image because I recommend for you not to image because I could already tell clinically that you could already tell clinically that you probably have a herniation because once probably have a herniation because once we image, we're going to find a lot of we image, we're going to find a lot of things cuz after we've been on the things cuz after we've been on the planet for a while, we tend not to have planet for a while, we tend not to have normal images anymore. But then two normal images anymore. But then two things happen. One, your specialist is things happen. One, your specialist is going to treat that image.

going to treat that image. And two, your brain is going to And two, your brain is going to consistently think that that's the issue consistently think that that's the issue once you see that image. like I I I do once you see that image. like I I I do not want to MRI my pain areas. I am not want to MRI my pain areas. I am clinically aware that I don't think clinically aware that I don't think there's anything dangerous there's anything dangerous >> going on, but it really messes with your >> going on, but it really messes with your head, right? head, right? >> I've really been, you know, I was >> I've really been, you know, I was thinking, oh, today we're talking about thinking, oh, today we're talking about hormesis, but really mindset is on my hormesis, but really mindset is on my mind. Um because different I've just mind. Um because different I've just been thinking over the last few days been thinking over the last few days different messages people gave me. So I different messages people gave me. So I got an MRI. Um so after I started got an MRI. Um so after I started getting more and more severe pain, I got getting more and more severe pain, I got an MRI. I'll I'll just, you know, leave an MRI. I'll I'll just, you know, leave it very general. So, one of my uh it very general. So, one of my uh primary care team said, "You need to primary care team said, "You need to stay off your foot." stay off your foot." So, I was on crutches for two months. So, I was on crutches for two months. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And it didn't really like it helped a >> And it didn't really like it helped a little bit, but as soon as I started little bit, but as soon as I started walking and doing stuff again, walking and doing stuff again, you know, I was kind of back to square you know, I was kind of back to square one. So, then I went So, that of course one. So, then I went So, that of course that message made me think, oh, this is that message made me think, oh, this is very serious.

very serious. >> Sure. like I have to be on crutches to >> Sure. like I have to be on crutches to prevent it from really getting bad. Then prevent it from really getting bad. Then my physio just rolled her eyes cuz of my physio just rolled her eyes cuz of course physios are all about maintaining course physios are all about maintaining weightbearing activity, weightbearing activity, >> of course. >> of course. >> And then I got an ultrasound or I can't >> And then I got an ultrasound or I can't remember. I got another test recently remember. I got another test recently and it said mild arthritis. I'm like, and it said mild arthritis. I'm like, "Oh, mild arthritis. I've got that all "Oh, mild arthritis. I've got that all over my body. That's not a big problem." over my body. That's not a big problem." And it just like my mind was just um And it just like my mind was just um flipping from connotation to connotation flipping from connotation to connotation like oh this is really serious I have to like oh this is really serious I have to stay off my foot to oh this is mild stay off my foot to oh this is mild arthritis that's like not even a big arthritis that's like not even a big deal and it just made me really focus in deal and it just made me really focus in on like as a health care provider in the on like as a health care provider in the past past >> how important are the messages that I'm >> how important are the messages that I'm giving people and I I can't remember if giving people and I I can't remember if I said this when we talked before but in I said this when we talked before but in the past before I got better and before

the past before I got better and before I learned about neuroplasticity and some I learned about neuroplasticity and some of the healing [snorts] tools I told of the healing [snorts] tools I told people it's called so back in the day people it's called so back in the day when we called it chronic fatigue when we called it chronic fatigue syndrome we call it chronic fatigue syndrome we call it chronic fatigue syndrome because it's chronic syndrome because it's chronic >> right >> right >> you got to learn to live with it now >> you got to learn to live with it now hopefully I was better than the average hopefully I was better than the average clinician because I actually gave them clinician because I actually gave them tools to do that I didn't just say like tools to do that I didn't just say like go have a good life and I worked with go have a good life and I worked with them as long as they needed to you try them as long as they needed to you try to optimize everything we possibly to optimize everything we possibly could. But looking back, that was not a could. But looking back, that was not a good message to give people. And good message to give people. And >> yeah, and my whole website now is about >> yeah, and my whole website now is about hope, right? hope, right? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I've totally flipped my messaging >> I've totally flipped my messaging because a I know there is hope and b because a I know there is hope and b even if the hope is tiny, even if the hope is tiny, it acts on the brain. it acts on the brain. >> No. >> No. >> In such a way that helps us actually >> In such a way that helps us actually heal. It increases the chances of heal. It increases the chances of healing. healing. >> You know, you are so spot on. And again, >> You know, you are so spot on. And again, I know we promised stop at hormesis.

I know we promised stop at hormesis. We'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. >> We have to go where the universe wants >> We have to go where the universe wants us to go. us to go. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, at this point in my career, I'm not >> So, at this point in my career, I'm not talking about my primary care practice. talking about my primary care practice. In the holistic world, I don't take on In the holistic world, I don't take on patients, but I have started doing patients, but I have started doing consults again where I could just give consults again where I could just give people a path because there seems to be people a path because there seems to be such a demand. such a demand. >> Yeah. Yeah. And >> Yeah. Yeah. And >> at the end of my consultation, my goal >> at the end of my consultation, my goal since I'm not taking them on as clients, since I'm not taking them on as clients, I asked them, do you have hope now? I asked them, do you have hope now? Because if that is we're already halfway Because if that is we're already halfway there. If before the session you were there. If before the session you were like, I I'm never going to get out of like, I I'm never going to get out of this. I don't know how to get out of this. I don't know how to get out of this. And now after the session, you're this. And now after the session, you're like, I think there's a way out. like, I think there's a way out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It might take you another year or two or >> It might take you another year or two or more. more. >> But being able to see that hope, that >> But being able to see that hope, that light and the tunnel is part of the light and the tunnel is part of the healing. It's the biggest part of the healing. It's the biggest part of the healing. healing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um that is I'm actually really glad you >> Um that is I'm actually really glad you brought that up because that that I brought that up because that that I consider a success. If someone says no, consider a success. If someone says no, I still feel hopeless and I didn't do a I still feel hopeless and I didn't do a good job consulting. good job consulting. >> Um that's that's really litmus test,

>> Um that's that's really litmus test, right? Because I'm no longer in charge right? Because I'm no longer in charge of their care after that. of their care after that. >> That hope is so undervalued. Giving >> That hope is so undervalued. Giving people hope when they walk out of the people hope when they walk out of the room. And then also your experience is room. And then also your experience is very much speaks to if you're going to very much speaks to if you're going to go to a surgeon, they're going to go to a surgeon, they're going to recommend surgery and you have to recommend surgery and you have to remember remember >> learned. >> learned. >> Yeah. Right. And I and I tell people >> Yeah. Right. And I and I tell people that all the time like that doesn't mean that all the time like that doesn't mean you you necessarily need it. Again, you you necessarily need it. Again, broken bones, cancer, we're not talking broken bones, cancer, we're not talking about those things. But when we're about those things. But when we're talking about pain, if you're going to talking about pain, if you're going to go to a surgeon, if you would have went go to a surgeon, if you would have went to your physio, they might have said, to your physio, they might have said, "Let's work on it this I'm not saying "Let's work on it this I'm not saying that that's necessarily right, but that that's necessarily right, but always take the advice and recognize always take the advice and recognize that the person who's given to you only that the person who's given to you only has one tool toolbox. If you're going to has one tool toolbox. If you're going to come to me, I'm going to talk to you come to me, I'm going to talk to you about nutrition and exercise and sleep. about nutrition and exercise and sleep. I'm not going to perform surgery on you. I'm not going to perform surgery on you. [clears throat] So, so [clears throat] So, so I'm so glad you service this because I'm so glad you service this because it's really you ha the person you're it's really you ha the person you're talking to only has their limited set of talking to only has their limited set of tools also. tools also. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Wow. That is really that is a lot the >> Wow. That is really that is a lot the imaging imaging >> and and when I think about it I'm a >> and and when I think about it I'm a physician and I'm I consider myself physician and I'm I consider myself pretty well informed and this happened pretty well informed and this happened to me and I'm really struggling like you to me and I'm really struggling like you know this has been seven months since I know this has been seven months since I went for a walk. went for a walk. >> No. And you're such an outdoor person. >> No. And you're such an outdoor person. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> This is a big deal for you. >> This is a big deal for you. >> This is a massive deal. And so it's >> This is a massive deal. And so it's just, you know, like I said to you just, you know, like I said to you before we turned on record, this is before we turned on record, this is really a cautionary tale. I think in our really a cautionary tale. I think in our community, in my community, people are community, in my community, people are so desperate and this was my case so desperate and this was my case because the pain was so severe. because the pain was so severe. I was willing to take the advice, I I was willing to take the advice, I guess, without due diligence, you know, guess, without due diligence, you know, or or maybe I was impatient cuz I wanted or or maybe I was impatient cuz I wanted to get back to all my activities. to get back to all my activities. >> How did ultimately was it diagnosed and >> How did ultimately was it diagnosed and what was done for it? what was done for it? >> Okay, quick break. If this episode is >> Okay, quick break. If this episode is hitting home, just ask yourself this. hitting home, just ask yourself this. Are you gaslighting yourself without

Are you gaslighting yourself without even realizing it? I made a free guide even realizing it? I made a free guide called self gaslighting habits to watch called self gaslighting habits to watch for. So, if you're constantly for. So, if you're constantly second-guessing yourself in the exam second-guessing yourself in the exam room, this is your starting point. Check room, this is your starting point. Check out the link in the description. Now, out the link in the description. Now, let's get back to it. Well, it was let's get back to it. Well, it was diagnosed as a bunion and I had surgery diagnosed as a bunion and I had surgery for a bunion. for a bunion. >> No, I mean at the end when we got to the >> No, I mean at the end when we got to the fact there was a neuroma. How did you fact there was a neuroma. How did you >> Oh, I'm still waiting for that >> Oh, I'm still waiting for that treatment. treatment. >> Oh, okay. So, but how who >> Oh, okay. So, but how who >> this is all in retrospect. I'm like, >> this is all in retrospect. I'm like, "Oh, this pain I have right now that has "Oh, this pain I have right now that has now now been [clears throat] diagnosed now now been [clears throat] diagnosed as being due to a nuroma, that's the as being due to a nuroma, that's the exact same pain I had 5 years ago be exact same pain I had 5 years ago be before all of this. So, I now have before all of this. So, I now have additional problems plus the original additional problems plus the original problem, which I'm hoping to get a call problem, which I'm hoping to get a call for tomorrow to start some treatment for for tomorrow to start some treatment for that." But that." But >> yeah, and s I mean, surgery is a big >> yeah, and s I mean, surgery is a big deal. I had surgery on my toe also. It's deal. I had surgery on my toe also. It's a big deal. It's not a big deal. It's not >> not reversible. Um it wasn't my great >> not reversible. Um it wasn't my great toe which is which is great toe is much toe which is which is great toe is much more critical but it's still I had to

more critical but it's still I had to work a lot on balance and it's one spin work a lot on balance and it's one spin toe toe >> and you have to work a lot on balance >> and you have to work a lot on balance everything is connected we forget that everything is connected we forget that we tend to be all of us out there we tend to be all of us out there whoever's listening there is very rarely whoever's listening there is very rarely the one solution right I'm not talking the one solution right I'm not talking about you have to have a tumor removed about you have to have a tumor removed obviously that's the solution yeah but obviously that's the solution yeah but when we're talking about this chronic when we're talking about this chronic long-term issues it's don't get out of long-term issues it's don't get out of the mindset is of if I just do this one the mindset is of if I just do this one thing, it will all align. Everything is thing, it will all align. Everything is connected. connected. >> Um, >> Um, >> that's such a good point. And in our >> that's such a good point. And in our community, like in we'll just say in community, like in we'll just say in conventional medicine, you use treatment conventional medicine, you use treatment A, you know, to solve problem B, and A, you know, to solve problem B, and that causes problems C, D, and E. And that causes problems C, D, and E. And now you've got to bring in all these now you've got to bring in all these other treatments for the so-called side other treatments for the so-called side effects. effects. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it can just balloon into, you know, >> And it can just balloon into, you know, what we refer to as polyfarm pharmacy. what we refer to as polyfarm pharmacy. >> Sure. in that respect as well. But also >> Sure. in that respect as well. But also even if you're doing things, you know, even if you're doing things, you know, not pharmaceutically like I I work with not pharmaceutically like I I work with people as you do with various integrated

people as you do with various integrated methods and idea of like if I just take methods and idea of like if I just take this supplement that will be fine. It's this supplement that will be fine. It's not not we have to there's going to be many many we have to there's going to be many many many layers so many things are connected many layers so many things are connected but we're very um like a to be b we're but we're very um like a to be b we're really have been taught to be a if I do really have been taught to be a if I do this thing everything will align and this thing everything will align and it's and it's rarely the case. Um, so it's and it's rarely the case. Um, so thank you for sharing that. thank you for sharing that. >> Oh, you're welcome. >> Oh, you're welcome. >> It's a good lesson to see how it happens >> It's a good lesson to see how it happens to clinicians. I mean, my entire history to clinicians. I mean, my entire history is my entire evolution is because of is my entire evolution is because of what happened to my wife and we're both what happened to my wife and we're both clinicians, clinicians, >> right? >> right? >> And so, how much harder is it to your >> And so, how much harder is it to your point for a lay person to be able to to point for a lay person to be able to to manage all this? It's so much. And now manage all this? It's so much. And now we're moving on to hormesis, which is we're moving on to hormesis, which is what we're planning. I had to just touch what we're planning. I had to just touch base. base. >> So, fancy word. Tell us what it means. >> So, fancy word. Tell us what it means. Yes. Yes. >> Okay. You know, it's so funny. I went to >> Okay. You know, it's so funny. I went to conferences for years and I would hear conferences for years and I would hear people talk about hormesis people talk about hormesis and they would kind of describe it as

and they would kind of describe it as a dose response curve. So, you give a a dose response curve. So, you give a certain dose of something and it works certain dose of something and it works and you give another dose of the same and you give another dose of the same thing and it doesn't work. Kind of like thing and it doesn't work. Kind of like that. And I was like, that. And I was like, >> what? >> what? >> H doesn't help me. So, here's here's my >> H doesn't help me. So, here's here's my new and improved definition. It's new and improved definition. It's basically something. It's a stressor. basically something. It's a stressor. It doesn't have to be a substance. So, It doesn't have to be a substance. So, we're going to talk about different we're going to talk about different types of hormetic stressors like being types of hormetic stressors like being cold, being hot, being in the sun, being cold, being hot, being in the sun, being hungry. These are hormetic stressors. So hungry. These are hormetic stressors. So these are natural things that our these are natural things that our species of humans encountered on almost species of humans encountered on almost a daily basis before we had universal a daily basis before we had universal access to food and central heating. access to food and central heating. Right? Like every person out there in Right? Like every person out there in the stone age was sometimes too hot, the stone age was sometimes too hot, sometimes too cold, sometimes too full, sometimes too cold, sometimes too full, sometimes too hungry, sometimes too sometimes too hungry, sometimes too sunny, sometimes too cloudy, etc. sunny, sometimes too cloudy, etc. those. So, so it kind of makes

those. So, so it kind of makes evolutionary sense that our body evolutionary sense that our body developed a way to utilize that those developed a way to utilize that those signals like, oh, I'm too cold. What signals like, oh, I'm too cold. What does that mean I have to do? That must does that mean I have to do? That must mean I need to ramp up my metabolism so mean I need to ramp up my metabolism so I can make more heat. I can make more heat. >> So, our body actually depended on these >> So, our body actually depended on these naturally occurring signals in our naturally occurring signals in our environment to give it messages that it environment to give it messages that it needed to upgrade something. So say I'm needed to upgrade something. So say I'm too hungry, I need to upgrade all the too hungry, I need to upgrade all the chemistry that allows me to burn fat and chemistry that allows me to burn fat and go into ketosis so that I don't die. go into ketosis so that I don't die. >> So hormesis is the stressor or the >> So hormesis is the stressor or the response to that stress. response to that stress. >> It's the response. >> It's the response. >> Okay. So there's a stress. The stressor >> Okay. So there's a stress. The stressor acts on us and our body's natural acts on us and our body's natural built-in response is to get better at built-in response is to get better at something, to upregulate something to something, to upregulate something to deal with that stress that it just um deal with that stress that it just um experienced. experienced. >> Interesting. So, it's always to get >> Interesting. So, it's always to get better or to get to baseline.

better or to get to baseline. >> Yeah, it goes beyond baseline. So, one >> Yeah, it goes beyond baseline. So, one of the experts in the field, I don't of the experts in the field, I don't have his name on the tip of my tongue, have his name on the tip of my tongue, but his def like his fancy def, you but his def like his fancy def, you know, scientific definition is that we know, scientific definition is that we don't just come back to baseline, but we don't just come back to baseline, but we go beyond it. And the really cool part, go beyond it. And the really cool part, it's kind of like I call it it's kind of like I call it neuroplasticity for the body neuroplasticity for the body >> because we can go beyond it by like 30 >> because we can go beyond it by like 30 to 50%. to 50%. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So, just think of something like energy. >> So, just think of something like energy. Like we all care about energy and a lot Like we all care about energy and a lot of people listening to this may be low of people listening to this may be low in energy. That's why they're listening in energy. That's why they're listening to a health podcast, right? to a health podcast, right? >> Sure. Sure. >> Sure. Sure. >> Um so we can when we sense that we don't >> Um so we can when we sense that we don't have enough energy and we've got this have enough energy and we've got this whole complicated system. It's called whole complicated system. It's called the EMPK sensing system. It measures how the EMPK sensing system. It measures how much ATP or cellular energy we have. If much ATP or cellular energy we have. If it's too low, it upregulates or turns on it's too low, it upregulates or turns on all the machinery we need to make more

all the machinery we need to make more ATP. And if there's not enough of the ATP. And if there's not enough of the parts, it makes those parts, right? So, parts, it makes those parts, right? So, if there's not enough machinery, like it if there's not enough machinery, like it might just be the machinery is there, might just be the machinery is there, but it's just kind of resting, so it but it's just kind of resting, so it turns it on. But if say we're aging and turns it on. But if say we're aging and we've actually lost some of the we've actually lost some of the machinery and we don't have enough machinery and we don't have enough mitochondria to make enough energy, it mitochondria to make enough energy, it will produce more mitochondria. will produce more mitochondria. >> Amazing. So hormesis is our builtin >> Amazing. So hormesis is our builtin feature. It comes standard with all in feature. It comes standard with all in our equipment. our equipment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Basically how we survive. >> Basically how we survive. >> Yeah. It's our operating system. >> Yeah. It's our operating system. >> Operating we get some sort of stressor, >> Operating we get some sort of stressor, some sort of stimuli from the outside some sort of stimuli from the outside world and then our body responds to world and then our body responds to improve our current state. improve our current state. Okay. So, okay. So, we have this Okay. So, okay. So, we have this definition. So, now what definition. So, now what >> the beauty is um like neuroplasticity we >> the beauty is um like neuroplasticity we all have it as you just you know all have it as you just you know eloquently said and that means we can eloquently said and that means we can think okay how could I so our body

think okay how could I so our body actually depends upon it. So, one idea actually depends upon it. So, one idea about our current modern health or poor about our current modern health or poor health epidemic is that it's because health epidemic is that it's because we're not stressing our bodies ever, we're not stressing our bodies ever, right? We always have enough food. We right? We always have enough food. We eat every 10 minutes, don't get enough eat every 10 minutes, don't get enough sleep. We are never too cold or too hot sleep. We are never too cold or too hot because we have central heating and air because we have central heating and air conditioning and we barely go outside. conditioning and we barely go outside. We never get enough exercise cuz we take We never get enough exercise cuz we take transport everywhere. we always have transport everywhere. we always have enough oxygen because we never you know enough oxygen because we never you know push ourselves push ourselves >> underwater. >> underwater. >> Yeah. Yeah. Underwater or going to >> Yeah. Yeah. Underwater or going to altitude. Um so so part you know one way altitude. Um so so part you know one way of looking which I kind of ascribe to of of looking which I kind of ascribe to of why we're in such poor health is because why we're in such poor health is because we're not utilizing our natural hormetic we're not utilizing our natural hormetic capacity. So things just get out of I

capacity. So things just get out of I don't know. Uh it's like if you have a don't know. Uh it's like if you have a car and you never service it, it's going car and you never service it, it's going to get kind of rusty and clunky and out to get kind of rusty and clunky and out of alignment. It's just not going to of alignment. It's just not going to work. Ideally, hormesis is like taking work. Ideally, hormesis is like taking our car for its annual checkup, but our car for its annual checkup, but ideally a almost a daily checkup. ideally a almost a daily checkup. >> It goes back to, you know, if you don't >> It goes back to, you know, if you don't use it, you lose it, use it, you lose it, >> right? Totally. That's exactly hormesis. >> right? Totally. That's exactly hormesis. If you don't use it, you lose it. If you don't use it, you lose it. >> That's amazing. And I love that you >> That's amazing. And I love that you called it the neuroplasticity of the called it the neuroplasticity of the body. Like I don't like it is hitting me body. Like I don't like it is hitting me because I read I did the homework prior because I read I did the homework prior to coming in, but it didn't hit me the to coming in, but it didn't hit me the way [clears throat] right now. This idea way [clears throat] right now. This idea that we have these built-in features. that we have these built-in features. We haven't even discussed how to like We haven't even discussed how to like play with them and how to and how to play with them and how to and how to >> We'll get there. >> We'll get there. >> Yeah. But now you're you're talking >> Yeah. But now you're you're talking about the fact like that just using it, about the fact like that just using it, right? So if we start I'm glad we right? So if we start I'm glad we started this podcast on neuroplasticity

started this podcast on neuroplasticity like yes I could teach myself to learn like yes I could teach myself to learn tennis and I could do that but did you tennis and I could do that but did you know prior to our first episode that you know prior to our first episode that you could also teach yourself not to be could also teach yourself not to be anxious or not to be in chronic pain. anxious or not to be in chronic pain. Wow. But now this idea of health that we Wow. But now this idea of health that we have this built-in feature that could have this built-in feature that could actually consistently not bring us to actually consistently not bring us to baseline but consistently go beyond baseline but consistently go beyond baseline and we never use it, hardly baseline and we never use it, hardly ever use it. ever use it. >> Right? >> Right? >> This is insane. >> This is insane. >> This is bananas. So, okay, I'm already >> This is bananas. So, okay, I'm already seeing some of the applications, but um seeing some of the applications, but um get us there. Oh my god, this is great. get us there. Oh my god, this is great. Okay. Okay. So, um probably before I go into some of So, um probably before I go into some of the specifics, there's three really the specifics, there's three really important keys cuz not everything is important keys cuz not everything is hormetic. Like not every stress is good. hormetic. Like not every stress is good. >> Sure. Okay. Said that right. >> Sure. Okay. Said that right. >> Like some are just bad. So the first >> Like some are just bad. So the first time a baseball bat is not a good time a baseball bat is not a good >> Yeah. That's not good. Or you know being >> Yeah. That's not good. Or you know being abused or neglected as a child that's

abused or neglected as a child that's that's just never good. that's just never good. >> Sure. Or for weeks at a time, right? >> Sure. Or for weeks at a time, right? Like that's Like that's >> sorry >> sorry >> or starving for weeks after right >> or starving for weeks after right >> or being so cold that you die of >> or being so cold that you die of >> sure >> sure >> what is it hypothermia never good right >> what is it hypothermia never good right >> sure >> sure >> so the first thing is um the the number >> so the first thing is um the the number one that I give as an example is air one that I give as an example is air pollution so air pollution is not pollution so air pollution is not hormetic you don't want to train hormetic you don't want to train yourself to breathe in you know yourself to breathe in you know everinccreasing amounts of car exhaust everinccreasing amounts of car exhaust thinking that it's going to upregulate thinking that it's going to upregulate your detox pathways and make you your detox pathways and make you healthier. And I just say that it sounds healthier. And I just say that it sounds kind of almost obvious, but um people kind of almost obvious, but um people So, believe it or not, there's research So, believe it or not, there's research showing that tiny tiny exposures to um showing that tiny tiny exposures to um radiation like uh in cells, not in radiation like uh in cells, not in humans, um makes the cells ability to um

humans, um makes the cells ability to um uh like heal the DNA. So when you're uh like heal the DNA. So when you're exposed to radiation, it causes DNA exposed to radiation, it causes DNA damage. And if you're exposed to it, damage. And if you're exposed to it, very tiny amounts, you can actually very tiny amounts, you can actually improve the cell's ability to to um fix improve the cell's ability to to um fix or repair that DNA damage. I'm not or repair that DNA damage. I'm not recommending that. So people look at recommending that. So people look at that on our day-to-day that that on our day-to-day that >> yeah, people look at that research and >> yeah, people look at that research and say, "Oh, I can overcome toxic say, "Oh, I can overcome toxic exposures." So, I do not believe that to exposures." So, I do not believe that to be the case. And I'm absolutely not be the case. And I'm absolutely not recommending that people go out there recommending that people go out there and purposely expose themselves to known and purposely expose themselves to known toxins. We've got enough, trust me, in toxins. We've got enough, trust me, in our our natural living. So, one is the our our natural living. So, one is the types of things that could be types of things that could be potentially beneficial are things that potentially beneficial are things that our ancient ancestor stove uh stone age our ancient ancestor stove uh stone age ancestors were exposed to. Those are the ancestors were exposed to. Those are the things that our bodies evolved

things that our bodies evolved mechanisms of dealing with. So heat, mechanisms of dealing with. So heat, cold, hunger, you know, extreme cold, hunger, you know, extreme exercise, altitude, things like that. exercise, altitude, things like that. Those are the things that our body is Those are the things that our body is really good at utilizing for our health. really good at utilizing for our health. >> Second thing is, oh, sorry, go ahead. >> Second thing is, oh, sorry, go ahead. >> I love that. What about >> I love that. What about this? First of all, it's a great this? First of all, it's a great delineator, right? Because we don't want delineator, right? Because we don't want somebody to go outside. I just don't somebody to go outside. I just don't want anyone to listen to this and go the want anyone to listen to this and go the wrong direction. wrong direction. >> Go extreme like she said it's hormesis >> Go extreme like she said it's hormesis and their teeth areing and yes so and their teeth areing and yes so [clears throat] that's so it shouldn't [clears throat] that's so it shouldn't be extreme and it should be of the be extreme and it should be of the things that are things that are >> naturally occurring >> naturally occurring >> naturally occurring. What about >> naturally occurring. What about emotions like naturally like I'm coming emotions like naturally like I'm coming I'm thinking of like a yearning or or I'm thinking of like a yearning or or desire like those are natural also. Does desire like those are natural also. Does that have the same hormetic effect where that have the same hormetic effect where there's like a driver as opposed to just there's like a driver as opposed to just stress like stressful? Does

stress like stressful? Does >> you know that's a whole other talk, >> you know that's a whole other talk, right? That stress is in the perception right? That stress is in the perception of the person of the person experiencing the stress. experiencing the stress. >> Um >> Um >> maybe that's more of a philosophical >> maybe that's more of a philosophical conversation. I was just wondering. conversation. I was just wondering. >> Yeah, I'm not sure. >> Yeah, I'm not sure. >> Okay, fair. Because hormetic research is >> Okay, fair. Because hormetic research is mostly measuring things like you put the mostly measuring things like you put the cell in and it's this cold and you cell in and it's this cold and you measure oh look at the metabolism measure oh look at the metabolism increases. increases. >> You know this is like pretty hardcore >> You know this is like pretty hardcore measurable science. measurable science. >> Fair, fair, fair. Okay, putting my woo >> Fair, fair, fair. Okay, putting my woo woo stuff in the closet for now. And woo stuff in the closet for now. And well maybe you know I am a psychiatrist well maybe you know I am a psychiatrist so I'll maybe just make one comment that so I'll maybe just make one comment that as I'm sure you know one of the main as I'm sure you know one of the main strategies for anxiety of various kinds strategies for anxiety of various kinds is to gradually face it right kind of is to gradually face it right kind of systematic desensitization. So you build systematic desensitization. So you build a hierarchy of things that you're a hierarchy of things that you're scared of or reluctant to encounter and scared of or reluctant to encounter and then you slowly build up and that's kind

then you slowly build up and that's kind of more neuroplasticity I would say of more neuroplasticity I would say because you're teaching your brain that because you're teaching your brain that these things are actually safe. these things are actually safe. >> That's fair. We're going to put that in >> That's fair. We're going to put that in the neuroplasticity section. Fair. the neuroplasticity section. Fair. Sorry. Okay. So that was number one. Sorry. Okay. So that was number one. >> That was number one is naturally >> That was number one is naturally occurring stressors are things that occurring stressors are things that potentially could be beneficial. The potentially could be beneficial. The second is the dose. second is the dose. >> So, like we were kind of saying, if you >> So, like we were kind of saying, if you go out in the freezing cold and you're go out in the freezing cold and you're not Wimhof and you haven't spent the not Wimhof and you haven't spent the last 50 years, you know, training your last 50 years, you know, training your body, you're just going to freeze. So, body, you're just going to freeze. So, don't do that. don't do that. >> Don't do that. >> Don't do that. >> Um, go into a little bit of cold. So, >> Um, go into a little bit of cold. So, for example, just recently I was at a for example, just recently I was at a mountain lake. It was bracing mountain lake. It was bracing and after I think I stayed in for about and after I think I stayed in for about 20 minutes and then I was shivering. 20 minutes and then I was shivering. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So you listen to your body and and I was >> So you listen to your body and and I was later I asked a guy he go he was like later I asked a guy he go he was like whoa you've been in there for a while. I whoa you've been in there for a while. I said yeah what do you think the

said yeah what do you think the temperature is? And he said I think it's temperature is? And he said I think it's about 10 degrees. So centigrade. I'm I'm about 10 degrees. So centigrade. I'm I'm Canadian right? Canadian right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So that's like about 50 or something >> So that's like about 50 or something like that. 40 high 40s. So it was really like that. 40 high 40s. So it was really cold. It felt outstanding, cold. It felt outstanding, but I wasn't going to die unless I but I wasn't going to die unless I stayed in there for hours. stayed in there for hours. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Um, so the dose is really, really >> Um, so the dose is really, really important. And usually important. And usually you want a tiny dose, just enough for you want a tiny dose, just enough for your body to notice. So with heat and your body to notice. So with heat and cold, it's really easy to tell. You want cold, it's really easy to tell. You want to stay in the cold just until you start to stay in the cold just until you start shivering. Guess what? Your body's shivering. Guess what? Your body's telling you it got the message. Now you telling you it got the message. Now you can get out. can get out. Fascinating. Fascinating. >> With heat, you want to stay in until you >> With heat, you want to stay in until you start sweating, start sweating, >> right? It's our body has these ways of >> right? It's our body has these ways of communicating to us that are really communicating to us that are really obvious if we don't think we're smarter obvious if we don't think we're smarter and override them. and override them. >> So, are you saying that up until the >> So, are you saying that up until the point of shivering, your hormesis was

point of shivering, your hormesis was kicking in and keeping you warm enough? kicking in and keeping you warm enough? >> No. No. That is such a good question >> No. No. That is such a good question because it brings up a really important because it brings up a really important point. point. The hormesis hasn't quite kicked in yet. The hormesis hasn't quite kicked in yet. Shivering shivering is the signal that Shivering shivering is the signal that the body is now like, okay, we're the body is now like, okay, we're seriously cold seriously cold now. It's time to get out. But this is now. It's time to get out. But this is the the third key is you have to do the the third key is you have to do these um hormetic exposures these um hormetic exposures intermittently because the hormesis intermittently because the hormesis doesn't occur in the moment. When you're doesn't occur in the moment. When you're in the cold, nothing is happening. in the cold, nothing is happening. You're just getting cold. Okay, You're just getting cold. Okay, >> you're just triggering the message to >> you're just triggering the message to the body that a few more mitochondria the body that a few more mitochondria would be useful because guess what? We would be useful because guess what? We we're having this cold issue and we're having this cold issue and mitochondria produce heat. It's after mitochondria produce heat. It's after you get out over the next 24 to 48 hours you get out over the next 24 to 48 hours that the hormetic benefits occur and that the hormetic benefits occur and they slowly slowly slowly build up. So

they slowly slowly slowly build up. So it has to be intermittent. So, you can't it has to be intermittent. So, you can't just go in the cold once every three just go in the cold once every three months. months. >> Nothing will happen. >> Nothing will happen. >> Nothing will happen. You'll go in, >> Nothing will happen. You'll go in, you'll have this little tiny blip of you'll have this little tiny blip of benefit and then it'll go away because benefit and then it'll go away because you haven't followed it up. So, it's you haven't followed it up. So, it's like you want the benefit just as it's like you want the benefit just as it's wearing off. You want to do it again and wearing off. You want to do it again and again. again. >> So, you want to do things like every >> So, you want to do things like every second to third day. second to third day. >> Okay. So the stressor dose the dosed the >> Okay. So the stressor dose the dosed the dosed natural stressor dosed natural stressor >> let's put that the qualifiers in >> let's put that the qualifiers in um need to happen for x amount of time um need to happen for x amount of time until you're let's just say for until you're let's just say for simplicity uncomfortable the sugar the simplicity uncomfortable the sugar the sweat sweat >> yeah uncomfortably hungry uncomfortably >> yeah uncomfortably hungry uncomfortably tired uncomfortably hot cold yeah tired uncomfortably hot cold yeah >> and then go back to your modern life get >> and then go back to your modern life get yourself yourself >> you know fed and warmed whatever get >> you know fed and warmed whatever get yourself out of the stressor

yourself out of the stressor >> and Then your body is going to start >> and Then your body is going to start responding kind of unbeknownst to you. responding kind of unbeknownst to you. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And the more times you do this, >> And the more times you do this, hopefully forever. hopefully forever. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You will have you will reap a cumulative >> You will have you will reap a cumulative effect. A little blip, a little blip, a effect. A little blip, a little blip, a little blip, and before you know it, a little blip, and before you know it, a year down the line, we've have all this year down the line, we've have all this more mitochondria than we would have had more mitochondria than we would have had without it. Or more ketosis than we without it. Or more ketosis than we would have had Yeah. without this, would have had Yeah. without this, depending on what the stressor is. Is depending on what the stressor is. Is that is that the answer? that is that the answer? >> That's exactly right. That's how I >> That's exactly right. That's how I understand it. understand it. That's amazing. That's amazing. And also That's amazing. That's amazing. And also what I I like and we haven't even gone what I I like and we haven't even gone to application yet, but I really like to application yet, but I really like about it is that it forces about it is that it forces what's the word I'm looking for? Nothing what's the word I'm looking for? Nothing extreme, right? And extreme is extreme, right? And extreme is problematic. Extreme is problematic. Extreme is counterproductive when it comes to counterproductive when it comes to hormesis. Right? So if you decide I'm hormesis. Right? So if you decide I'm going to take up running, you don't go going to take up running, you don't go register for the marathon next month. register for the marathon next month. >> Correct? >> Correct? >> Right. you're just going to injure >> Right. you're just going to injure yourself and you're going to end up in

yourself and you're going to end up in well I won't say bed but you're going to well I won't say bed but you're going to end up very sedentary for a while until end up very sedentary for a while until you heal from your injury. So that that you heal from your injury. So that that wasn't hermetic. That was stupid wasn't hermetic. That was stupid [laughter] [laughter] at the at the risk of being blunt. at the at the risk of being blunt. >> I was hoping you would say that. >> I was hoping you would say that. >> Okay. [laughter] I was like should I say >> Okay. [laughter] I was like should I say this on this on >> I did say absolutely. >> I did say absolutely. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So you want to gradually work up, right? >> So you want to gradually work up, right? You want to walk around the block and You want to walk around the block and then two blocks and then 1k 2 K and then then two blocks and then 1k 2 K and then you want to do that little intermittent you want to do that little intermittent thing where you run for a minute and thing where you run for a minute and walk for a minute and you want to slowly walk for a minute and you want to slowly build up because the cells don't have build up because the cells don't have it's just like neuroplasticity. The it's just like neuroplasticity. The cells don't have infinite capacity like cells don't have infinite capacity like just because you demand of them just because you demand of them something extreme they can't respond to something extreme they can't respond to that. They can just go incrementally. that. They can just go incrementally. You can't make double your mitochondria You can't make double your mitochondria in one minute. You know, you you slowly in one minute. You know, you you slowly increase them only when the cells get increase them only when the cells get the consistent message that they're

the consistent message that they're needed because the body hates wasting needed because the body hates wasting energy. energy. >> So, it's not going to start upregulating >> So, it's not going to start upregulating and turning on things that aren't and turning on things that aren't needed. And if you just do it once every needed. And if you just do it once every two months, two months, >> it's going to totally ignore you, >> it's going to totally ignore you, >> right? It needs to know like this is a >> right? It needs to know like this is a new environment. We we are in a cold new environment. We we are in a cold environment. we need to change it or environment. we need to change it or that's amazing. Okay, so this is that's amazing. Okay, so this is fascinating. So, okay, say more. fascinating. So, okay, say more. >> Well, what I love about it and why I'm, >> Well, what I love about it and why I'm, you know, all jazzed up about it is you know, all jazzed up about it is because it's all free. because it's all free. >> You love that. >> You love that. >> There's no supplements. There's no >> There's no supplements. There's no drugs. You can buy fancy equipment. You drugs. You can buy fancy equipment. You know, you can buy the cold plunge pool know, you can buy the cold plunge pool and the fancy sauna. You can, but you and the fancy sauna. You can, but you don't have to. don't have to. >> Yeah. Just go outside when it's cold. >> Yeah. Just go outside when it's cold. >> Yeah. or go outside when it's hot or >> Yeah. or go outside when it's hot or exercise. I don't know, turn put a exercise. I don't know, turn put a heater on in a room, do your workout, heater on in a room, do your workout, sweat. Like, it's very inexpensive to do sweat. Like, it's very inexpensive to do hormetic stressors. And again, going

hormetic stressors. And again, going back, if we look at the big picture of back, if we look at the big picture of public health, it's probably the single public health, it's probably the single most helpful thing we could do as a most helpful thing we could do as a society is to be less comfortable. society is to be less comfortable. >> I love that. And I Well, yeah, in so >> I love that. And I Well, yeah, in so many ways. But I also love the fact that many ways. But I also love the fact that it's intermittent. Not only does it mean it's intermittent. Not only does it mean you don't have to be extreme, but it you don't have to be extreme, but it also means that in between you get to also means that in between you get to not do this. You know, like like with not do this. You know, like like with ketosis, and I'm sure we'll get that ketosis, and I'm sure we'll get that like it's hard to be in ketosis all the like it's hard to be in ketosis all the time, but it based on what you're time, but it based on what you're saying, you don't need to be in ketosis saying, you don't need to be in ketosis all the time, right? Ketosis every third all the time, right? Ketosis every third day day >> or Right. And so like in between that, >> or Right. And so like in between that, you're not like it's hard to sustain you're not like it's hard to sustain that. And now I'm understanding also, that. And now I'm understanding also, you know, I'm sure you know like some of you know, I'm sure you know like some of the Alzheimer's work that's out there. the Alzheimer's work that's out there. It's really about being in ketosis as It's really about being in ketosis as often as possible, but like hard to live often as possible, but like hard to live that way all the time. But knowing that that way all the time. But knowing that you can get this cumulative benefit by you can get this cumulative benefit by doing it intermittently. Again, not doing it intermittently. Again, not three months intermittent, but every three months intermittent, but every second or third day also loosens up a

second or third day also loosens up a little bit of, you know, the stress little bit of, you know, the stress around getting it all the time every day around getting it all the time every day correctly. Am I getting that right? correctly. Am I getting that right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and I don't want to, you >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and I don't want to, you know, I'm not an um an expert on how know, I'm not an um an expert on how much ketosis is needed for Alzheimer's. much ketosis is needed for Alzheimer's. That's kind of maybe a special case. That's kind of maybe a special case. >> Fair. And, you know, people >> Fair. And, you know, people >> optimization. >> optimization. >> Yeah. Um, but what I would say is >> Yeah. Um, but what I would say is there's like a sciency term called um there's like a sciency term called um intermittent metabolic switching. intermittent metabolic switching. >> Yes. What that means is you our >> Yes. What that means is you our metabolism so how we create energy we metabolism so how we create energy we burn food with oxygen we make energy in burn food with oxygen we make energy in the form of ATP the form of ATP uh there's a lot of debate out there you uh there's a lot of debate out there you know should you be keto like what's the know should you be keto like what's the best fuel and my read of the research is best fuel and my read of the research is the best is to change it up the best is to change it up so sometimes you want to be fasting so sometimes you want to be fasting because that turns on what's called

because that turns on what's called these nutrient sensors. So we have these nutrient sensors. So we have these, you know, this is part of these, you know, this is part of hormmesis. We have these sensors in our hormmesis. We have these sensors in our cells and as soon as the energy gets a cells and as soon as the energy gets a bit too low or the protein, the leucine bit too low or the protein, the leucine gets a bit low or the sugar gets a bit gets a bit low or the sugar gets a bit low, it turns on all these beneficial low, it turns on all these beneficial mechanisms. mechanisms. But you can't have that all you can't be But you can't have that all you can't be fasting all the time, right? because fasting all the time, right? because you'll die. And Whoops. Yeah. And it's you'll die. And Whoops. Yeah. And it's because you also need to eat to build because you also need to eat to build new molecules. So intermittent switching new molecules. So intermittent switching means when we're eating, we're turning means when we're eating, we're turning on all the building programs, build DNA, on all the building programs, build DNA, build RNA, build neurotransmitters, build RNA, build neurotransmitters, build new cells, build new mitochondria. build new cells, build new mitochondria. But all of those parts get damaged and But all of those parts get damaged and we need to recycle and take out the we need to recycle and take out the garbage and we can only do that when garbage and we can only do that when we're fasting.

we're fasting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So it's like a switch. >> So it's like a switch. >> You can't be a little bit fasting and a >> You can't be a little bit fasting and a little bit eating. little bit eating. >> You can't be a little bit building and a >> You can't be a little bit building and a little bit breaking down at the same little bit breaking down at the same time. It just time. It just >> that's not how the body works. So it's >> that's not how the body works. So it's like a literally like a old-fashioned like a literally like a old-fashioned light switch. Maybe now everybody uses a light switch. Maybe now everybody uses a remote control. um you're either remote control. um you're either building or breaking down and health building or breaking down and health requires both. So it's not that one is requires both. So it's not that one is good and like people if um with mTor and good and like people if um with mTor and rapamy they get really into we need to rapamy they get really into we need to be fasting all the time. Fasting is be fasting all the time. Fasting is good. It activates hormesis. It turns on good. It activates hormesis. It turns on all the cellular repairs. But then once all the cellular repairs. But then once you've repaired everything, you need new you've repaired everything, you need new molecules to rebuild. molecules to rebuild. You know, I'm really glad you're saying You know, I'm really glad you're saying this because I think we hear one thing this because I think we hear one thing uh again back to this binary world. uh again back to this binary world. Yeah. Yeah. >> And we're think, oh, I have to do this >> And we're think, oh, I have to do this thing all the time and it has to be thing all the time and it has to be perfect and daily and regimented. And

perfect and daily and regimented. And that's not how the body is designed. I that's not how the body is designed. I mean, our entire system is like fight or mean, our entire system is like fight or flight, rest and digest. Like you have flight, rest and digest. Like you have this, you have to be able to go in and this, you have to be able to go in and out of metabolic flexibility. Sometimes out of metabolic flexibility. Sometimes I have food, sometimes I don't have I have food, sometimes I don't have food, food, >> right? and and this concept of hormesis. >> right? and and this concept of hormesis. We have this and when we when we lack We have this and when we when we lack it, we're going to create it. But like it, we're going to create it. But like this this idea of fluidity and flexibility is idea of fluidity and flexibility is really important as part of the healing really important as part of the healing because if we're going to get regimented because if we're going to get regimented around it and try to do this on the around it and try to do this on the daily, we're not going to reap that daily, we're not going to reap that benefits. Understand? benefits. Understand? >> And again, I I just keep going back to >> And again, I I just keep going back to our ancestral history. So, back in the our ancestral history. So, back in the day, let's say 10,000 years ago when all day, let's say 10,000 years ago when all we had was a little bit of fire, and we we had was a little bit of fire, and we didn't have any other, you know, didn't have any other, you know, dishwasher, central heating, anything dishwasher, central heating, anything like that. Sometimes it was hot, like that. Sometimes it was hot, sometimes it was cold, it was sometimes it was cold, it was unpredictable. Sometimes it was windy. unpredictable. Sometimes it was windy. Uh, sometimes there was food, sometimes Uh, sometimes there was food, sometimes there wasn't, and it was unpredictable.

there wasn't, and it was unpredictable. So, that that word flexibility that you So, that that word flexibility that you used, I think, is really central. It's used, I think, is really central. It's really central it metaphorically and really central it metaphorically and technically being flexible is really technically being flexible is really just important in life. just important in life. >> Um and and I and I really love that >> Um and and I and I really love that because I to your point I think someone because I to your point I think someone could someone could take some of this could someone could take some of this advice advice >> and uh destroy it. >> and uh destroy it. >> Yeah. Like build this very >> Yeah. Like build this very >> Yes. Like morning till night. I'm going >> Yes. Like morning till night. I'm going to do my cold sauna uh cold plunge. It to do my cold sauna uh cold plunge. It has to be exactly seven minutes at this has to be exactly seven minutes at this temperature every single day. But that's temperature every single day. But that's not the real world. The real world is not the real world. The real world is it's summer, it's winter, it's fall, you it's summer, it's winter, it's fall, you know. know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We're going to wake up every day and I'm >> We're going to wake up every day and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do going to do this and I'm going to do this and this. That's not how that we've this and this. That's not how that we've kind of missed the point again if we do kind of missed the point again if we do that. that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I It's just like even with exercise. You >> I It's just like even with exercise. You shouldn't do the same exercise. shouldn't do the same exercise. Sometimes you lift, sometimes you swim, Sometimes you lift, sometimes you swim, sometimes you walk, sometimes like And sometimes you walk, sometimes like And the idea is that you should be able to the idea is that you should be able to do all of it at all times at any time I do all of it at all times at any time I should say. Okay. So

should say. Okay. So are we, you know, so we definitely know are we, you know, so we definitely know nutritional a lot. I think a lot of nutritional a lot. I think a lot of people know about intermittent fasting. people know about intermittent fasting. Just the fact that it's intermittent is Just the fact that it's intermittent is already kind of in line what we're already kind of in line what we're talking about. How else can we talking about. How else can we manipulate this hormmesis in our favor? manipulate this hormmesis in our favor? >> Well, through diet, there's another >> Well, through diet, there's another really important strategy which is our really important strategy which is our phytonutrients. phytonutrients. >> So phyto kind of means plant, I think, >> So phyto kind of means plant, I think, in some ancient language. Um, so in some ancient language. Um, so phytonutrients are all of the chemicals phytonutrients are all of the chemicals and there's over a thousand known and there's over a thousand known phytonutrients and they're found in phytonutrients and they're found in colorful fruits and vegetables, so colorful fruits and vegetables, so plant-based sources because of the word plant-based sources because of the word phyto. And I always thought and I was phyto. And I always thought and I was taught that phyto um plants are healthy taught that phyto um plants are healthy because they contain antioxidants. because they contain antioxidants. So this is a really important hormetic So this is a really important hormetic message that's very surprising. They do message that's very surprising. They do contain antioxidants, but they also

contain antioxidants, but they also contain these phytonutrients which are a contain these phytonutrients which are a little bit toxic. little bit toxic. M M >> so if you put yourself in the mind of a >> so if you put yourself in the mind of a plant it's saying I have seeds and nuts plant it's saying I have seeds and nuts and leaves and roots and I actually and leaves and roots and I actually don't want some animal to munch them don't want some animal to munch them down because then I'm not going to down because then I'm not going to survive and propagate. survive and propagate. >> So I'm going to put some slightly toxic >> So I'm going to put some slightly toxic chemicals in my being to discourage chemicals in my being to discourage uh hungry mammals let's say. uh hungry mammals let's say. So, it turns out these phytonutrients So, it turns out these phytonutrients are a slight stressor on the body. And I are a slight stressor on the body. And I don't know if this is true. I've heard, don't know if this is true. I've heard, you know, things that are bitter, that's you know, things that are bitter, that's kind of a sign that it's really high in kind of a sign that it's really high in phytonutrients. So, people that take phytonutrients. So, people that take bitters, bitters, >> um, bitter herbs and things. I think >> um, bitter herbs and things. I think that, that, >> you know, there may be the science >> you know, there may be the science behind it may be that the phytonutrients behind it may be that the phytonutrients are horic. So we take we'll say the are horic. So we take we'll say the bitter herbs or the multicolored

bitter herbs or the multicolored [clears throat] [clears throat] fruits and vegetables. It's a little bit fruits and vegetables. It's a little bit hard on our body and it triggers hard on our body and it triggers hormesis meaning the body hormesis meaning the body activates processes that we need to activates processes that we need to overcome that and make us stronger and overcome that and make us stronger and more resilient for the next time. more resilient for the next time. >> That's a mind-blowing way of seeing >> That's a mind-blowing way of seeing phytonutrients. phytonutrients. It's It's >> not I never phytonutrients as my >> not I never phytonutrients as my understanding of it is that we need understanding of it is that we need these phytonutrients. Um these phytonutrients. Um >> and we do. So both are true at the same >> and we do. So both are true at the same time. time. >> Yeah. And to think of them as >> Yeah. And to think of them as [clears throat] stressors [clears throat] stressors that will create some sort of cascade that will create some sort of cascade response is is mind-blowing. response is is mind-blowing. >> And the research has been done on the >> And the research has been done on the Mediterranean diet. So you say, okay, Mediterranean diet. So you say, okay, what kind of diet should I follow? more what kind of diet should I follow? more or less the medit you know everyone or less the medit you know everyone argues over the details but something argues over the details but something around Mediterranean is usually around Mediterranean is usually beneficial and they've done and it's one

beneficial and they've done and it's one of the most researched diets and that's of the most researched diets and that's what they found that the Mediterranean what they found that the Mediterranean diet the phytonutrients are horically diet the phytonutrients are horically stressful and they change our stressful and they change our epigenetics. So, one of the benefits of epigenetics. So, one of the benefits of eating fruits and vegetables is that it eating fruits and vegetables is that it turns on this whole cascade of genes we turns on this whole cascade of genes we need to repair our body. Like, it's all need to repair our body. Like, it's all about repair, right? about repair, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> From the moment we're conceived, it's I >> From the moment we're conceived, it's I hate to be a little bit pessimistic, but hate to be a little bit pessimistic, but it's a little bit downhill. it's a little bit downhill. >> Sure. We're we're on our way to death at >> Sure. We're we're on our way to death at all times. all times. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> But but what we do on a day-to-day basis >> But but what we do on a day-to-day basis has a significant impact. And this is uh has a significant impact. And this is uh you've heard people talk about you've heard people talk about biological age biological age >> and chronological >> and chronological >> and chron yeah and chronological and >> and chron yeah and chronological and that's where hormesis comes in. So if that's where hormesis comes in. So if we're uncomfortable enough we're uncomfortable enough we're activating hormesis. Our uh we're activating hormesis. Our uh biological age could be younger than our

biological age could be younger than our chron chronological age. and some of the chron chronological age. and some of the influencers online, you know, they're influencers online, you know, they're getting tested all the time and they're getting tested all the time and they're 65 and they're testing out as 38. So, 65 and they're testing out as 38. So, >> I just want to say the tests, you know, >> I just want to say the tests, you know, there's a lot of debate over their there's a lot of debate over their accuracy. But in general, the concept accuracy. But in general, the concept seems to be true and hormesis is a big seems to be true and hormesis is a big part of basically how we stay young. part of basically how we stay young. >> You know, my wife wears a garment and we >> You know, my wife wears a garment and we were just hanging out and then she goes, were just hanging out and then she goes, "Oh, I just went it brought her down by "Oh, I just went it brought her down by a year as we were talking." I was like, a year as we were talking." I was like, "Wow, that's amazing. That's great. "Wow, that's amazing. That's great. [laughter] [laughter] That's so funny. Um, but this is That's so funny. Um, but this is [clears throat] this is actually as [clears throat] this is actually as usual when I talk to you, my mind is usual when I talk to you, my mind is blown. And another reason to eat blown. And another reason to eat phytonutrients like another like we we phytonutrients like another like we we know it's healthy for us for so many know it's healthy for us for so many reasons, but now to know reasons, but now to know >> that it's triggering our response that >> that it's triggering our response that is bringing us above baseline. is bringing us above baseline. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Is that also the reason why eating too >> Is that also the reason why eating too much of it sometimes makes us gives us much of it sometimes makes us gives us reactions? Like some people it's belly, reactions? Like some people it's belly, some people is that part of it because

some people is that part of it because it's just too much of it. it's just too much of it. >> Yeah. Like one, you know, one article I >> Yeah. Like one, you know, one article I read said read said >> mix it up like don't eat a bushel of >> mix it up like don't eat a bushel of bananas, bananas, >> right? >> right? >> Too much of the same thing and that >> Too much of the same thing and that little bit of toxin, you know, it's little bit of toxin, you know, it's going to build up. going to build up. >> Fascinating. What other what other >> Fascinating. What other what other application should we know? application should we know? >> The most research most powerful is >> The most research most powerful is exercise. So when we exercise, we exercise. So when we exercise, we actually damage our muscles a little actually damage our muscles a little bit. That's the hormetic bit, right? bit. That's the hormetic bit, right? They're moving. The meioytes are moving They're moving. The meioytes are moving back and forth and there's friction and back and forth and there's friction and pressure and pressure and all of that. And that causes damage. The all of that. And that causes damage. The cells notice the damage and then they cells notice the damage and then they turn on all the repair mechanisms to turn on all the repair mechanisms to make the muscles stronger and healthier make the muscles stronger and healthier and more resilient for future. So we and more resilient for future. So we call that training. call that training. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. So just for anyone who's like, >> Right. So just for anyone who's like, "Okay, this is still sounding a bit hard "Okay, this is still sounding a bit hard to understand." Just think exercise. The to understand." Just think exercise. The more you exercise, the stronger your more you exercise, the stronger your muscles get. muscles get. >> You're sore the next day, but then

>> You're sore the next day, but then you're building muscles. you're building muscles. >> Right. Right. So that's an important >> Right. Right. So that's an important thing. And if you exercise 5 hours every thing. And if you exercise 5 hours every day, you lose some of that training day, you lose some of that training effect. effect. >> Don't some of like the therapeutic >> Don't some of like the therapeutic treatments, I'm thinking orthopedic treatments, I'm thinking orthopedic injections, kind of work on the idea of injections, kind of work on the idea of like creating agitation? like creating agitation? >> Yes. So that repair will come in. >> Yes. So that repair will come in. >> Yes. So things like prolotherapy. >> Yes. So things like prolotherapy. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um are annoying >> Um are annoying dextrose. dextrose. >> Is that what they're doing? Are they >> Is that what they're doing? Are they harnessing hormesis there? harnessing hormesis there? >> I don't think they're harnessing >> I don't think they're harnessing hormesis. I think it's more just hormesis. I think it's more just generating inflammation generating inflammation >> and just I was just thinking >> and just I was just thinking inflammatory response and then coming to inflammatory response and then coming to repair. But no, it's it's different. repair. But no, it's it's different. >> You know, they're probably related. >> You know, they're probably related. >> Yeah. But mostly if you inject something >> Yeah. But mostly if you inject something like dextrose say in a ligament like dextrose say in a ligament insertion it's just causing the body to insertion it's just causing the body to see that and go ah I don't like this all see that and go ah I don't like this all the white cells and cytoines and

the white cells and cytoines and everything rush in and then it gives the everything rush in and then it gives the opportunity to remodel and repair. opportunity to remodel and repair. >> Interesting. Amazing. Okay. So you're >> Interesting. Amazing. Okay. So you're about to tell us about something we about to tell us about something we didn't think of. the thought of exercise didn't think of. the thought of exercise but you're about to talk. but you're about to talk. >> So I'm going to talk about red and >> So I'm going to talk about red and infrared light. So that's infrared light. So that's >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, yes, please. I do this every >> Well, yes, please. I do this every morning. Tell us. morning. Tell us. >> So red and infrared light. So this is >> So red and infrared light. So this is between a wavelength of we're going to between a wavelength of we're going to say 600 to 630 nanmters, which is cherry say 600 to 630 nanmters, which is cherry red. And as the wavelength gets longer red. And as the wavelength gets longer over about 700, you can't see it over about 700, you can't see it anymore. It's now in the infrared. So, anymore. It's now in the infrared. So, it's still there, which makes it tricky. it's still there, which makes it tricky. If you buy a device and you don't see If you buy a device and you don't see anything, you're like, is it actually anything, you're like, is it actually working? working? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, and up to really about a thousand >> Um, and up to really about a thousand nanometers is the the near and then the nanometers is the the near and then the far infrared. far infrared. >> When I first learned this, which is 10 >> When I first learned this, which is 10 years ago, my mind was so blown and I it

years ago, my mind was so blown and I it took me quite a while to believe it was took me quite a while to believe it was even true. even true. I had gone through medical school I had gone through medical school and never learned this. I read Dr. and never learned this. I read Dr. Norman Deuts's um book, The Brain's Way Norman Deuts's um book, The Brain's Way of Healing. It came out. So, it's all of Healing. It came out. So, it's all about neuroplasticity. about neuroplasticity. But one of the strategies he talks about But one of the strategies he talks about in the book to enhance neuroplasticity in the book to enhance neuroplasticity is using red and infrared light. I'm is using red and infrared light. I'm like, that makes no sense. I know plants like, that makes no sense. I know plants utilize light to grow all of their utilize light to grow all of their carbon structure, right? To get big and carbon structure, right? To get big and grow. Humans, we don't like light does grow. Humans, we don't like light does nothing for us. That's what I thought to nothing for us. That's what I thought to be true. be true. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Could not be more wrong. So, it turns >> Could not be more wrong. So, it turns out there's I'm learning more every day, out there's I'm learning more every day, but the basic is red and infrared light but the basic is red and infrared light penetrates the cell. It goes into the penetrates the cell. It goes into the mitochondria. In the mitochondria, we mitochondria. In the mitochondria, we have these five components, four to have these five components, four to five, depending how you count, oxidative

five, depending how you count, oxidative phosphorilation, phosphorilation, the the machinery that makes ATP. the the machinery that makes ATP. And the one called cytochrome C oxidase, And the one called cytochrome C oxidase, it's the fourth one in the line. The it's the fourth one in the line. The infrared and red light acts directly on infrared and red light acts directly on that complex that complex and makes it make more energy. So, we're and makes it make more energy. So, we're basically getting free energy. basically getting free energy. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. >> We're like plants. We're getting free >> We're like plants. We're getting free energy from the sun. energy from the sun. >> I mean, I've been learning the past from >> I mean, I've been learning the past from from some of my guests. from some of my guests. >> Importance [clears throat] >> Importance [clears throat] of light and the sun, which is really of light and the sun, which is really important because we have been as a as a important because we have been as a as a society away from the sun, going away society away from the sun, going away from and sunscreen and sunglasses. And from and sunscreen and sunglasses. And >> um and the idea that red light is >> um and the idea that red light is helping us produce mitochondria has been helping us produce mitochondria has been something that I've accepted into my something that I've accepted into my life a while ago. But yeah, the concept life a while ago. But yeah, the concept that it's secondary to hormesis that it's secondary to hormesis >> is fascinating. >> is fascinating. >> Well, there's two. It's just like the >> Well, there's two. It's just like the phytochemicals where there's the direct

phytochemicals where there's the direct effect like they are antioxidants and effect like they are antioxidants and they are helpful in the moment and then they are helpful in the moment and then there's this indirect coming the next there's this indirect coming the next day hormmesis where it um upregulates day hormmesis where it um upregulates all of the repair mechanisms. So with all of the repair mechanisms. So with light the direct effect is it acts on light the direct effect is it acts on the mitochondria and we produce more the mitochondria and we produce more energy. But what happens when we produce energy. But what happens when we produce more energy is we also produce free more energy is we also produce free radicals. It's part of the chemical radicals. It's part of the chemical equation. You can't you can't have one equation. You can't you can't have one without the other. without the other. >> Good point. >> Good point. >> That's the hormetic because now you've >> That's the hormetic because now you've got a stress. You've got these got a stress. You've got these additional free radicals. additional free radicals. The free radical sensing mechanisms in The free radical sensing mechanisms in the cell go uhoh. We've got a problem. the cell go uhoh. We've got a problem. We've got to figure out a way to deal We've got to figure out a way to deal with these free radicals if we want to with these free radicals if we want to keep producing more energy, which we keep producing more energy, which we like because it helps us heal and calm like because it helps us heal and calm inflammation and all these things. And inflammation and all these things. And so it upregulates so it upregulates um our natural antioxidant response

um our natural antioxidant response pathway. pathway. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. >> To help us be more resilient >> To help us be more resilient when we experience oxidative stress in when we experience oxidative stress in the future. So it's really really the future. So it's really really important. important. >> That's fascinating. Is there you may you >> That's fascinating. Is there you may you may not know this in your research you may not know this in your research you see how close do you need to be to this see how close do you need to be to this light light >> oh I don't think it matters >> oh I don't think it matters >> so um a photon which is the unit of >> so um a photon which is the unit of light right any light red blue green light right any light red blue green they all have photons that's what they all have photons that's what actually and I'm making it kind of actually and I'm making it kind of mechanistic like this like it's mechanistic like this like it's traveling towards us in the air but traveling towards us in the air but >> probably it's more quantum and fuzzy and >> probably it's more quantum and fuzzy and hard for my little brain to understand, hard for my little brain to understand, but basically light reaches us through but basically light reaches us through photons. It's little packets of light. photons. It's little packets of light. It's not It looks to us like it's just It's not It looks to us like it's just spread all over, but it's actually these spread all over, but it's actually these little quanta or packets of light little quanta or packets of light reaching us from the source, say the sun reaching us from the source, say the sun or the light bulb or the red light

or the light bulb or the red light panel. panel. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And it's those little tiny photons that >> And it's those little tiny photons that actually have the effect in our actually have the effect in our mitochondria. Mitochondria are quantum mitochondria. Mitochondria are quantum objects. objects. >> So it's they're just it's energy to >> So it's they're just it's energy to energy. energy. >> It's energy to energy >> It's energy to energy >> because they're quantum and this is >> because they're quantum and this is energy. So doesn't it you don't have to energy. So doesn't it you don't have to see it. It's happening regardless. It's see it. It's happening regardless. It's energy. The mitochondria are seeing it energy. The mitochondria are seeing it in the sense. in the sense. >> Yeah. So that photon is giving its >> Yeah. So that photon is giving its energy to the cytochrome C oxidase which energy to the cytochrome C oxidase which is then producing. So it's I don't know is then producing. So it's I don't know what the word would be like the light what the word would be like the light energy is getting converted to chemical energy is getting converted to chemical energy in the form of ATP. energy in the form of ATP. >> It's it's crazy because [laughter] >> It's it's crazy because [laughter] it's crazy. This is like a whole other it's crazy. This is like a whole other episode, but it's crazy because years episode, but it's crazy because years ago before I went down this crazy ago before I went down this crazy pathway, if you talk to me about pathway, if you talk to me about energies, I would say you're insane. energies, I would say you're insane. >> Right. Woo woo. Right. >> Right. Woo woo. Right. >> Right.

>> Right. But here I am years later, deeper in But here I am years later, deeper in science than I've ever been in my life. science than I've ever been in my life. And I'm back to [laughter] energy and we And I'm back to [laughter] energy and we are energy and we have to be around are energy and we have to be around energy. Yeah. energy. Yeah. >> And it's all energy. >> And it's all energy. >> It's all energy. >> It's all energy. >> It's all energy. It's it's >> It's all energy. It's it's >> it's crazy. >> it's crazy. >> I'll just even Oh, so you asked uh I got >> I'll just even Oh, so you asked uh I got off track. Um you asked how uh close the off track. Um you asked how uh close the light has to be. So it matters and it light has to be. So it matters and it doesn't. the photon like if you think doesn't. the photon like if you think the sun we're is it 93 million miles or the sun we're is it 93 million miles or something from the sun. something from the sun. >> Sure. I'm gonna go. >> Sure. I'm gonna go. >> It's really big. We're really far from >> It's really big. We're really far from the sun. No problem. Those photons are the sun. No problem. Those photons are hitting our bodies constantly, right? So hitting our bodies constantly, right? So distance isn't an issue. But what is an distance isn't an issue. But what is an issue is say you have a little red light issue is say you have a little red light panel much smaller than the sun. The panel much smaller than the sun. The closer it is to you, the better because closer it is to you, the better because um the int uh like the intensity is the um the int uh like the intensity is the square of the distance. So say it's one

square of the distance. So say it's one foot away, I'm going to get a certain foot away, I'm going to get a certain dose and if I move it two feet away, I'm dose and if I move it two feet away, I'm going to get only a quarter of the dose. going to get only a quarter of the dose. >> Yeah, makes sense. So the the really >> Yeah, makes sense. So the the really tricky part because there's so like tricky part because there's so like literally hundreds if not thousands of literally hundreds if not thousands of devices out there and they're all devices out there and they're all different and they're all they have different and they're all they have different intensities of photons coming different intensities of photons coming at you. And so I recommend um using the at you. And so I recommend um using the cheapest device of all which is the sun. cheapest device of all which is the sun. And even on cloudy days, you're getting And even on cloudy days, you're getting a huge amount more than we need of red a huge amount more than we need of red and infrared light and providing um and infrared light and providing um energy to our mitochondria. energy to our mitochondria. The red and infrared does another really The red and infrared does another really interesting thing which I've learned interesting thing which I've learned about more recently. It actually causes about more recently. It actually causes the skin cells to produce melatonin. And the skin cells to produce melatonin. And we think of melatonin as being in our we think of melatonin as being in our brain and helping us sleep, which is brain and helping us sleep, which is true, but it turns out that the skin

true, but it turns out that the skin produces more melatonin than the brain. produces more melatonin than the brain. And in the skin, the melatonin is a And in the skin, the melatonin is a powerful antioxidant. powerful antioxidant. So that when we're out in the sun, So that when we're out in the sun, because everyone's going to be like because everyone's going to be like they're going to be listening to this they're going to be listening to this and possibly just dismiss everything I'm and possibly just dismiss everything I'm saying because they're like, "Don't you saying because they're like, "Don't you know the sun is dangerous?" But it's not know the sun is dangerous?" But it's not dangerous because we produce melanin dangerous because we produce melanin which is our natural tan, right? Which which is our natural tan, right? Which protects our DNA from the ultraviolet protects our DNA from the ultraviolet light. And we produce melatonin which light. And we produce melatonin which helps repair the DNA that could be helps repair the DNA that could be damaged by the ultraviolet light. And damaged by the ultraviolet light. And anyone who's listening to this, let's go anyone who's listening to this, let's go back to point number one, which is don't back to point number one, which is don't go out having not been in the sun for go out having not been in the sun for six years and then decide to stay six years and then decide to stay outside for eight hours and get a outside for eight hours and get a sunburn. sunburn. >> Right? This is also a buildup. >> Right? This is also a buildup. >> Absolutely. You might go out like I have >> Absolutely. You might go out like I have people in my community who are sensitive people in my community who are sensitive and we're saying, "You know what? Go out and we're saying, "You know what? Go out at 8 in the morning for 5 minutes."

at 8 in the morning for 5 minutes." >> Yes. >> Yes. >> When the sun's barely barely above the >> When the sun's barely barely above the horizon, the rays are the weakest. horizon, the rays are the weakest. There's the more more red and infrared There's the more more red and infrared and le uh no ultraviolet yet, right? and le uh no ultraviolet yet, right? Ultraviolet is more in the middle of the Ultraviolet is more in the middle of the day. And slowly build what we call a day. And slowly build what we call a solar callus. slowly build solar callus. slowly build >> the tolerance and the tan really really >> the tolerance and the tan really really gradually so that when summer like right gradually so that when summer like right now we're kind of midsummer hopefully now we're kind of midsummer hopefully you've got that resiliency that it's not you've got that resiliency that it's not going to be damaging. going to be damaging. I I >> I love that so much. We the pendulum has >> I love that so much. We the pendulum has definitely swung uh against the sun and definitely swung uh against the sun and we are now to your point where you we are now to your point where you started earlier. We have removed started earlier. We have removed ourselves so much from the elements that ourselves so much from the elements that we don't even know what we're missing we don't even know what we're missing and then we're just taking supplemental and then we're just taking supplemental vitamin D thinking that's all we're vitamin D thinking that's all we're missing from the sum but that's that's missing from the sum but that's that's not even close to not even close to >> and I just want to say something else >> and I just want to say something else about energies related unrelated but I about energies related unrelated but I just it just came to me so I just go just it just came to me so I just go with it. I was just talking to someone

with it. I was just talking to someone here in LA, the neuroplasticity person here in LA, the neuroplasticity person I'm working with, and we were talking I'm working with, and we were talking about like smoothies and she said, "If about like smoothies and she said, "If you're going to have the plant that you're going to have the plant that you're going to make with the you're going to make with the phytonutrients, it is so much better to phytonutrients, it is so much better to take the actual plants than let's just take the actual plants than let's just say the green powders that are say the green powders that are available. I don't want to say their available. I don't want to say their names names >> because of the energy that is in the >> because of the energy that is in the plant that you are now drinking not just plant that you are now drinking not just the finance but the energy of the living the finance but the energy of the living thing as opposed to the powder from a thing as opposed to the powder from a factory or whatever dehydrated. factory or whatever dehydrated. So like you might be getting some of the So like you might be getting some of the things in the powder but you are no way things in the powder but you are no way are getting the energy that is coming are getting the energy that is coming from the plant which is a fascinating from the plant which is a fascinating concept concept >> and just to even build so you know this >> and just to even build so you know this is like at the far edge of my knowledge is like at the far edge of my knowledge right and my it's getting woowoo but right and my it's getting woowoo but just to add to it and take it a step just to add to it and take it a step further there's a lot of people who say further there's a lot of people who say that's why we should eat local and

that's why we should eat local and seasonal seasonal >> because the plants >> because the plants >> contain information in that energy. The >> contain information in that energy. The energy isn't just random energy isn't just random calorie energy, but it's actually light calorie energy, but it's actually light information. So, the plants store the information. So, the plants store the information from the light that they've information from the light that they've been exposed to throughout their life, been exposed to throughout their life, and they're transmitting that to us. So, and they're transmitting that to us. So, if I, who lives in Canada, eats a if I, who lives in Canada, eats a pineapple, pineapple, again, I I don't have evidence to again, I I don't have evidence to support this, but it kind of makes support this, but it kind of makes intuitive sense. My body doesn't know intuitive sense. My body doesn't know what's going on. My body, my Canadian what's going on. My body, my Canadian body has never seen a pineapple growing. body has never seen a pineapple growing. >> Yeah. And and the communication, >> Yeah. And and the communication, the energy and communication that's the energy and communication that's stored in that pineapple might not be stored in that pineapple might not be the best fit for my body. the best fit for my body. >> That is fascinating. Eating local, >> That is fascinating. Eating local, eating seasonal, which is hard to do eating seasonal, which is hard to do because everything's available every because everything's available every time.

time. Um, but yeah, the fascinating and I love Um, but yeah, the fascinating and I love that you said, I know we're so off that you said, I know we're so off topic, we think of energy and food as topic, we think of energy and food as calories only, but there is so much more calories only, but there is so much more of energy and information than just the of energy and information than just the calories that we have taken away from calories that we have taken away from food. Um, so as always, Dr. Elnorstein, food. Um, so as always, Dr. Elnorstein, thank you for being here with us. And I thank you for being here with us. And I think you wanted me to mention a link. think you wanted me to mention a link. >> Yeah. So um I run a I have a membership >> Yeah. So um I run a I have a membership and my membership we meet every other and my membership we meet every other week. You get you know I give a little week. You get you know I give a little talk I mean something similar to what talk I mean something similar to what you just heard for example on all all you just heard for example on all all the topics um that people with complex the topics um that people with complex chronic diseases could benefit basically chronic diseases could benefit basically what do we what could we do to help us what do we what could we do to help us live healthier and longer and it's live healthier and longer and it's called Live with Dr. Stein and we'll put called Live with Dr. Stein and we'll put the link in the show notes. the link in the show notes. >> Yes, absolutely. I love that. How many >> Yes, absolutely. I love that. How many people are in your come to your people are in your come to your >> um right now? I've got about um 80.

>> um right now? I've got about um 80. >> What? >> What? >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> that's a lot of people. >> that's a lot of people. >> It's a nice nice group size. >> It's a nice nice group size. >> That's amazing. >> That's amazing. >> And we have a community. So, you know, >> And we have a community. So, you know, there's conversation in between live there's conversation in between live sessions and they get the recordings and sessions and they get the recordings and the handouts. So, it's um quite a robust the handouts. So, it's um quite a robust platform and way to learn. platform and way to learn. >> Love that. Okay, you heard it. We're >> Love that. Okay, you heard it. We're going to put it in our show notes. Make going to put it in our show notes. Make sure you join the membership. Thank you sure you join the membership. Thank you for being here. for being here. >> Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. >> Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. Well, that's another episode of the Well, that's another episode of the medical disruptor. This is what medical medical disruptor. This is what medical disruption looks like. Not blaming, but disruption looks like. Not blaming, but exposing the limits of the training and exposing the limits of the training and pushing the conversation forward. You're pushing the conversation forward. You're part of a community that doesn't exist part of a community that doesn't exist anywhere else. A safe space for people anywhere else. A safe space for people who want real scientific information, who want real scientific information, but also want to ask questions without but also want to ask questions without being made to feel crazy. Our community being made to feel crazy. Our community is informed, empowered, and science is informed, empowered, and science back. Ready to go deeper? Dr. back. Ready to go deeper? Dr. fratamandre.com has my book, PDFs, fratamandre.com has my book, PDFs, newsletter, and a link for consults. newsletter, and a link for consults. Until then, keep asking questions, keep Until then, keep asking questions, keep asking for more, and keep disrupting.

Transcript auto-generated by YouTube. Verbatim — duplicates intentionally preserved.

Why The Dose Matters

Hormesis is the response, not merely the stressor. Cold water, heat, fasting, movement, and light do not create benefit by existing beside you. They become useful when your body can meet them, respond to them, and recover beyond its starting point.

That distinction changes the entire practice. More is not more refined. Longer is not always more effective. The body does not award intensity; it adapts to signals it can survive, understand, and repair from.

Our body actually depended on these naturally occurring signals in our environment to give it messages that it needed to upgrade something.

The source conversation frames this through evolution. Humans were regularly too hot, too cold, too hungry, too full, in sun, and without sun. The body developed ways to use these conditions as instructions. If cold arrived, metabolism needed to help create heat. If hunger arrived, the body needed to access stored fuel and maintain energy.

Hormesis becomes meaningful because the body can move beyond baseline. It does not simply return to normal and close the file. With the right exposure, the body prepares for the next encounter with greater capacity, sometimes described as adaptation above where it began. That is resilience in biological form.

The dose is where wisdom enters. A manageable fast can teach metabolic flexibility and steadier energy. A punishing fast can create depletion. A cold plunge can sharpen presence and train composure. Too much cold, too soon, can become a demand the body cannot absorb.

Precision protects the purpose. A strong protocol respects current capacity, health context, and recovery window. It does not confuse discomfort with mastery. It asks for enough challenge to create a signal and enough restraint to preserve harmony.

Modern comfort removed many of the natural pulses that once shaped human adaptation. Constant temperature, constant food, and constant convenience soften the need for response. Intentional hormetic rituals reintroduce selected signals with care. You choose the stressor, the dose, and the recovery.

This is not an argument for overexposure. It is an argument for a more deliberate relationship with stress. The body thrives when challenge and restoration are paired. The signal asks. Recovery answers.

The Body Learns Through Repetition

Hormesis resembles neuroplasticity for the whole body. Neuroplasticity describes the brain’s capacity to change through lived experience, where repeated thoughts, actions, and feelings become stronger patterns. Hormesis extends that logic into physiology: repeated signals teach biology what to prepare for, creating more dependable energy, resilience, and clarity over time.

We don't just come back to baseline, but we go beyond it.

What fires together wires together in the brain. What repeats with the body becomes a new expectation. Practice guitar often enough and skill becomes more available. Practice anxiety often enough and the brain can make that pattern easier to access. The same principle makes deliberate recovery practices powerful.

Repeated inputs create new defaults. Movement teaches the body that strength and coordination are worth maintaining. Fasting teaches the body to work with fuel more flexibly. Cold teaches the body to respond under pressure while staying present. Each signal, repeated with recovery, becomes part of the body’s preparation.

Energy offers a practical example. The source describes the body as sensing ATP, the cellular energy currency, and responding when levels run low. When energy demand rises, the body can turn on machinery that helps make more ATP, supporting the vitality needed for daily performance and steadier focus.

Fasting also asks the body to use fuel differently. When hunger appears, the body can activate chemistry that supports fat burning and ketosis, helping preserve energy when food is not immediately available. In plain terms, the body learns how to keep you functioning when conditions change.

The lesson is not heroic exposure. A single intense session can create sensation, but consistency creates adaptation. The body learns through rhythm. It responds to what you repeat, especially when the repetition is paired with sleep, nourishment, and enough pause to absorb the work.

This is where ritual becomes useful. A ritual is repeatable, measured, and calm. It does not rely on mood. It gives the body a stable signal and gives you a way to observe your capacity with honesty. Over time, the protocol becomes less about proving anything and more about building trust.

We train adaptation by returning to the signal with respect. Not every day needs the same intensity. Not every season asks for the same dose. Mastery comes from listening, adjusting, and continuing. The body learns what the body lives.

Resilience Needs Context

Resilience does not exist outside context. The same stressor can strengthen one person and strain another. Capacity, timing, diagnosis, history, and recovery all shape the outcome. A precise protocol honors the whole person, not only the method.

The source offers a cautionary story through a foot injury and surgery. A painful neuroma was missed while attention moved toward a bunion, arthritis, and an image that looked serious. The image became louder than the person’s lived experience. That shift matters.

When care focuses on an X-ray instead of the body in front of it, the path can narrow too quickly. Surgery was recommended, the toe joint was fused, and gait changed. For someone with connective tissue vulnerability, that change carried a larger impact. One isolated fix created new complexity.

Messages from clinicians also become inputs. Being told to stay off a foot can create fear and protection. Hearing that arthritis is mild can change the entire inner landscape. The body responds to load, but the brain also responds to meaning. Hope, fear, and clarity influence recovery behavior.

Your body's telling you it got the message. Now you can get out.

This is why language matters. A clinician can close a future with one careless sentence, or open one with a more precise frame. Hope is not decorative. The source describes hope as acting on the brain in a way that increases the chance of healing. Hope supports action, patience, and recovery.

Chronic issues rarely resolve through one isolated solution. A supplement, a surgery, a scan, a plunge, or a fast can each have value in the right context, but none should be treated as the whole sanctuary. The body is connected. Recovery must be connected too.

Hormesis belongs inside that larger view. It is one thoughtful tool among many: movement, sleep, nourishment, guidance, emotional safety, and time. Used well, it can help you build capacity. Used without context, it can become another demand.

The mature practice is deliberate and humane. You choose signals that match your current capacity. You recover fully enough to adapt. You allow hope to remain part of the protocol. Resilience grows when stress has meaning, dose has precision, and the body has a place to return.

Wim's Wise Words

A second take, from someone who's lived it.

If you take one thing from this, take the exit seriously. The cold is only half the ritual. The return is where you learn whether the dose was right.

I like cold exposure because it tells the truth quickly. You know within seconds whether you are present, breathing, and composed, or whether you are forcing your way through. That distinction matters. Forcing is not mastery. Mastery is staying clear enough to listen while the body receives the signal.

Where I'd Start

Start smaller than your pride wants. Choose a cold dose you can repeat three or four times a week without needing to recover from the recovery practice. For many, that means one to three minutes, calm breath, and a clean finish before shivering becomes the whole story. If you want the colder end of the work, read Cold Therapy, Precise Protocol next; it keeps the practice measured.

I would not stack every hormetic tool at once. Cold plunge, hard training, fasting, poor sleep, and a long workday can all draw from the same account. The body does not care that each stressor has a different name. It reads total load. If you are flat, irritable, sleeping poorly, or dragging through the afternoon, reduce the signal before you add another one.

Heat deserves the same respect. I save sauna for the evening when I want a softer landing. Twenty minutes can create a deliberate pause, especially when you leave the phone outside and let the nervous system come down. Cold sharpens. Heat unwinds. Used together, they can create balance, but only when you leave enough space between effort and rest.

None of this replaces sleep, nourishment, daylight, or honest movement. Those are not basic because they are small. They are basic because everything else depends on them. A plunge on top of depletion is still depletion with better branding.

The practical test is simple. After the session, do you feel clearer within the hour, and steadier later in the day. Do you sleep as well or better. Do you want to return tomorrow without negotiation. If yes, you are near your dose. If not, shorten it, warm up more slowly, or take another recovery day.

Resilience is built by signals you can absorb. Keep the ritual precise, keep the return spacious, and let your body prove readiness through steadiness, not performance.