Transcript: Why Sauna Could Be One of the Most Powerful Longevity Tools for Women

Full transcript with clickable timestamps linking back to the source video.

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And that's again where I think the power of sauna has not even been touched yet. I mean, it's starting to, but I think that's where a lot of benefits are happening. And that's what came out of my global sauna survey is people said the major findings were I sleep better after I'm in the sauna. I feel better after I'm in sauna. But it's hard. We don't have biomarkers for all those things yet. So, that's where I think we're watch the sauna space. [snorts] Hello and welcome to the Biohacker podcast. I'm Asta Alagich, your host and founder of Biohacker. I'm an integrated nutrition health coach specializing in longevity for women. A health and wellness journalist, writer, corporate consultant, and a biohacking advocate. Biohacker is a space where we can explore ways to optimize our health to live well longer, whether it's through improving our nutrition, exercising, cryotherapy, supplementation, technology, and more. I'll be bringing you information and interviews with the best longevity experts to help you understand what you can do to optimize your health, prevent disease, and slow down or even reverse the symptoms of aging by taking control of your unique bioindividuality. Want to know more? Let's dive in. Dr. Joy has saying, welcome to the podcast. You are an integrated medical practitioner, but also a researcher as well in particular on the benefits of sauna, which I think is absolutely fascinating because I love a good sauna, I must say. And I do do a sauna three to four times a week. But we've all heard that saunas are a good for you, right? But medically speaking, what's actually happening inside the body during sauna

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happening inside the body during sauna exposure? Can you outline that for us? Well, that's a trick question because it's like asking what happens to our body in exercise. These are both activities that are multi-system, multi-organ activators. So, there's a lot going on when we get into the sauna. And what happens in you is very different than may what be happening in me. So, every person is a little different on how much of activations, but we can talk roughly. Okay, yes, you you walk into the sauna and it depends on what type of sauna you're talking about, too. So, there are so many different types of saunas now. [laughter] But, let's let's talk about the most common one that's researched at least, and that would be say a traditional or Finnish-style sauna. So, it's a dry sauna. It tends to be lower than 20% humidity. So, when you walk in, first thing you do, depending on what the settings are, your skin has receptors that are temperature receptors that are sending signals to your brain. And in particular in your brain, the hypothalamus. That's where the relay station for what we call thermoregulation or our temperature regulation is. And that sends messages all over the body through the autonomic nervous system. And that's the nervous system that's automatic that we don't have to think about. And that impacts our cardiovascular system. So, it it shunts blood flow, it increases our heart rate, and increases blood pressure to pump blood all over the body so that we can lose the heat that's accumulating inside of us. And that how we do that mostly is by sweating. And so, we start to uh secrete It's 99% water-based onto our skin and then it evaporates and it's the energy that uses to evaporate it that

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energy that uses to evaporate it that cools us off. We have to use that heat to evaporate it. And then there's feedback mechanisms that go back to the hypothalamus and say, "Okay, we're cooling off."or" No, we're still heating. We need to keep pumping out the sweating." And those kind of activations have downstream effects on all kinds of parts of the brain, uh parts of the immune system. So, it's complicated. It's not as easy as saying, "Oh, just this happens and this happens." There's actually probably about a coordination of 500 things that are happening when we walk into the sauna. And that makes it difficult to study. [laughter] I'm sure it does. I mean, 500-plus things that's happening within the body when you walk into a sauna. I've never heard that before. That's crazy. I'm guessing. But But it's probably more than that. It's probably a thousand different things. We are such awesome organisms. Actually, all organisms, all life is absolutely awesome. And so, trying to simplify it, which we often oversimplify to try and discuss benefits and things. But anyway, that was a uh a very overwhelming way to start. [laughter] [laughter] Not at all. But you've often said the sauna is misunderstood in in medicine. What do you think are the biggest myths about sauna that frustrate you as a researcher on sauna? Well, first of all, there's a lot of researchers and also, I'd say practitioners, too, who might dismiss sauna as, "Oh, it's just a relaxation activity."or" That's just an indulgence." Or there's attributing sauna to be only a detox device. And I think all All those are missing the just these wide range of health benefits that you can get from exposing yourself to heat and sweating. Yeah. And And why is it important from a longevity perspective for us to expose

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longevity perspective for us to expose ourselves to heat and sweating? Well, it's using this thermoregulatory system. Like everything in the body, if you don't use it, you'll lose it. So, that's why if we're not exercising, our muscle tone decreases and our bones don't don't develop and maintain as well. it's the same way with thermoregulation. If you don't challenge yourself, whether that be getting cold or getting hot, those neurons and those mechanisms don't get activated. They become rusty and they don't work as well. And in fact, how we can think of it is when you think about women in particular going through perimenopause, menopause, what's the number one symptom that a lot of women discuss or are these hot flashes? Well, what is that? That is actually your thermoregulatory system acting up. It's not running smoothly. And we know now that estrogen plays a huge role in that. So, it's the withdrawal of estrogen or when estrogen levels are decreasing that we get that kind of. And so, that tells you right there that that's a system that where it needs to be where if it's not getting exercised properly, it doesn't function well. And I think we're in a bit of a comfort crisis in a lot of places where the minute we get cold, we turn on the heater. The minute we get hot, we turn on the air conditioner. So, that's more, you know, that's years of not using your thermoregulatory system and then having a big change, so it doesn't work as well. I must admit I do not like the cold at all and this cold spell that just moved through overnight. I would stepped outside this morning to go feed my horses and I'm like, "Oh, it's a little bit cold this morning. Where's my Parker straight away?" So I know, me too. I'm I'm I hear you on that one.

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I hear you on that one. [laughter] But you're alluding to the that's the state of hormesis where we we should be exposing ourselves to what we refer to as as good stress, right? Uh elements of good stress. Yes, exactly. Because not all stress is good for us. Right. And what is stress? I mean, you have to define what do you mean by stress? Cuz there's physiological stress, internal stress, there's mind psychological stress, and they have different pathways that get activated with each of those. So, a lot of it is terminology. You know, we get lost in a lot of the terminology when talking about sauna. So, that's another problem I have with the research around sauna is we're it's being done in different silos. So, sports doctors are doing a lot of the research versus um cardiologists are doing a lot of the research and they get silo vision. They get tunnel vision on what they want to study and if you don't think about the whole body as an elaborate connection of all different types of systems, then you miss I think you you run the risk of missing what are some of the the wealth of benefits you can get with sauna. Like with exercise. You know, exercise we accept that as oh yeah, and exercise is good for us. You know, that's really just been in the last 7, 500 years. Before that, there was not this this idea that you needed to exercise to be healthy. And even now we're still working out the mechanisms to why is it that exercise helps us? And it doesn't help everyone. That's the other thing we're trying to tease out, and it's the same thing with sauna. Sauna isn't for everyone. That's why you hear some people who say, "Ah, doesn't do it for me." But, you know, it we're all wired a little differently. For sure, and I think that's an important consideration when we're looking at doing any biohacks that, you

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looking at doing any biohacks that, you know, people might be considering to implement within their daily protocol because we are different, and we need to take that into consideration. And I always speak about listening to your body and making sure that you tune into that because your body will tell you what it needs, I believe, intuitively. Your thoughts? Yes, I I agree, and I think when we go to optimize, that's where it's nice to have guidance of different things to try. And that can include I you know, that can include a look, I'm trained as a, you know, allopathic physician, so I use medicines, too. But, I'm also, I find the longer I'm in practice, I keep veering more towards lifestyle medicine because I'm realizing that when we have turned to the list of medications and looking at the pharmaceutical model, we're often ignoring the basics, like good food, you know, making sure we food, good elimination, making sure our digestion is running smoothly, and activity, and connectedness, and all the things that curiously we hear that are help prevent cardiovascular disease and help prevent dementia, all the same things that we talk about sauna being helpful for. Well, they're all connected. Yeah, completely agree. In your systematic review, what were the strongest health outcomes supported by evidence, and which benefits are still overhyped? Well, the trouble with my systematic review is that I could only review what's been done. And there's a bias, like I said, in these different silos and where you get funding to do research. So, what's been studied the most? Cardiovascular disease, and especially heart failure of all things. So, where's the best evidenced benefits? Well, it's with cardiovascular disease and with heart failure. And some of these and a lot of the studies are out of Japan and Europe, and that's just because that's where the most studies

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because that's where the most studies have been done. I think with sauna, it hasn't been studied in the wide range of all its benefits. In fact, just I'd say maybe the last 5 years we're starting to see more studies that are looking at the mental health benefits, which there was some suggestion in my systematic review of that. And that systematic review is is over 10 years old already now. So, there's a lot that's happened in the sauna research realm since then. But, I would have to say, mental health, there were only a handful of studies that had looked at depression using sauna and depression and and using it with pain, so pain sensations. But, I think we're going to find as more and more studies are being done, we're going to see more evidence of benefit for that. So, yes, in answer to your question, cardiovascular disease was the number one thing that that saunas had been proven to have evidence of benefit for. And dementia is tacked on to that because we're still working out, well, what causes dementia? I'm suspecting it has similar threads as cardiovascular disease, and we refer to that as inflammation, but that's a big word. That That word covers a lot of different things. When we say inflammation, we're usually talking about immune system activations, but the immune system is a huge system that I think we're going to divide into several different systems in the future, is my feeling in medicine, as we get to know more and more about it. Yeah, it's evolving so rapidly, isn't it? And as is the research. I mean, there's been thousands of studies done on benefits of saunas. And I wonder whether they are you highlighted that, you know, they're in different countries and and they focus on different elements of the body, but I wonder whether there are cultural influences as well, too, that research. That Yeah. Of course, you are right. And and, you

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Of course, you are right. And and, you know, it makes a difference whether you sauna alone or whether you sauna as part of a group. I mean, so and it's the same way with exercise. There are different and I keep coming back to that comparison because in my PhD, that's what I really was getting to is that there are a lot of common threads between exercise and sauna. And there are some important differences, too, but that's we have to think about it with that type of mindset. Mhm. So, why why should we be saunaring with people rather than alone? I'm curious. Explain. not I'm not saying that you that I'm not saying that the evidence points that we should always be doing with people. I'm just saying the different benefits, the psychological benefits might be different whether you're doing it alone or with a group of people. So, uh I'd say like in the European traditions, there's much more of doing it together with your family or doing it together with friends. Whereas I'd say in the US and in Australia, it's changing, but it tends to be marketed more as a solo activity. You know, we might go to the local sauna and book a session for ourselves or maybe a couple, but really it tends to be more individual focused. But, that's changing and I can see that changing. But I'm wondering if you know that social isolation and that type of socializing that can come with doing an activity might give us different I'm suspecting it will give us different benefits and and risks and things like that. Interesting. So if we're hypothesizing that we might see different or better benefits by doing a sauna in a social environment, do you think that's related to the nervous system regulation perhaps as a result of sitting there and connecting with people and discussing

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connecting with people and discussing your problems in life and and we know that that's one of the contributing factors to the blue zones in terms of longevity that connection and having people in your life that you love and want to have a chat to that that significantly contributes to someone's longevity, right? Of course and we know again getting back to those we talked about nervous system but in particular the autonomic nervous system. The nervous system you don't have to think about and there are changes going on with that when we're socializing. I mean there are studies that demonstrate our heart rate variability and and that's a often misunderstood term. So heart rate variability is what a lot of the algorithms that are in our wearables like I have an aura ring and all our wearables are based on these algorithms around heart rate variability. So not just your heart rate but the amount of time in between the beats. So that's what we call heart rate variability which are these microseconds and it's a little counterintuitive but the longer the more variability the more difference between the heartbeats that's associated with better health. Whereas and that tends to happen you have more time to have different amounts between beats when your heart rate is slower. As opposed to when your heart rate is fast, there's less ability to vary that time. So, it took me a while. It It was doing these studies that I really had to get my head around heart rate variability. But, that is definitely a really powerful sign of our overall health. Is if we can have heart rate variability be high and our heart rate on the other side be on the low side. Mhm. And heart rate variability, does that vary depending on your age type and stage in life, particularly for women? So, as I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, that once you're through menopause, HRV can sometimes be on the

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menopause, HRV can sometimes be on the lower side. Is that right? Or Or is that a mean No, it depends. I think if someone's gone through menopause well and nourishes themselves and maybe saunas a lot or exercises regularly, I think it's also a very individualized marker. So, all of us are trying to compare ourselves to each other and say, "Oh, my heart rate variability score is better than yours." Guess what? That's not how heart rate variability works in terms of interpreting it within It's a comparison to within yourself. So, when your heart rate variability is higher it within yourself, that's in a time when you're tend to be in recovery or tend to be resting and or are feeling less stressed. Whereas, when you're under the pump or or while you're exercising, your heart rate variability is going to be lower in that time cuz your heart rate's going to be higher. So, it's using that marker. That's what's so wonderful about wearables. It's It's about trying to get the best version of you, not necessarily the best version to compare to someone else if that makes sense. It It does make sense and I'm just reflecting on my own personal HRV and I know that my HRV tends to be low when I'm in work mode, when I've got too much on my plate, or if I'm exercising a lot. And then as soon as I go into rest mode and take some time out for myself and and do some things like have a sauna or go and have a massage or whatever it might be that my HRV starts to increase then. And particularly with breath work as well, I find that that really helps to increase my HRV. I now you have just stumbled on something that I really would like to study because you're highlighting one of the findings I did in my clinical trial. So I haven't really talked about there were kind of three different stages in my PhD. You referred to the first one where I did a systematic review where I was looking at well what has everyone found out about sauna and health to

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found out about sauna and health to start with. And then the second thing I did was what's called a cross-sectional survey. I did a global sauna survey where I looked at I asked 72 questions about sauna bathing of as many people around the world as I could. And I have got nearly 792 responses and over 500 completed the whole 72 questions which was really good and I got lots of interesting data about that. But it was the third thing I did that I want to go back to that I I looked at women cuz one of the things that came out of those first two steps is that I realized we weren't looking at women in the sauna. We were only we were always excluding women because of what I mentioned before because our thermoregulation, our temperature regulation is so intertwined with our female hormones. And these female hormones don't stay real static. Either premenopausal, you know, they're they're all always they're cycling with our menstrual cycles, but even in postmenopause our female hormones are changing more than they say more than the male hormones of men. So, we're difficult to study when it comes to thermoregulation. And so, scientists will often take the easiest the path of least resistance. Well just exclude women so we don't have to worry about that being a confounder. So, when I came to that third step of my PhD, I said, "I want to focus on women. They've been ignored." So, I did a a what's called a crossover randomized clinical trial where I looked at just women and I put them through three different arms. Uh one was a control arm where I just measured a variety of different physiological parameters with them just resting. And I looked at things like heart rate. I looked at breathing rate. I looked at temperature regulation. I looked at skin temperature, blood pressure, and then I looked at heart rate variability which

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looked at heart rate variability which we just talked about. And then what I did is check those things and then put them through an exercise. Because I I was wanting to compare sauna directly with exercise in women. So, I had them uh bicycle indoor bicycle and collected those same parameters. And then the third arm was going into an infrared sauna set at 60 ° and they went in for three 15-minute cycles for a total of 45 minutes of activity and they had 5-minute breaks in between those three. And then I test I was measuring those same things. And what I found, getting back to breath work, is that one of the major differences between sauna and exercise is that in the sauna you don't have to breathe fast. You know, in fact, you can breathe slow. Yeah. Whereas in exercise, you are increasing your oxygen demands, you have to breathe faster to get those same cardiovascular changes. So, coming out of that, a lot of when I was submitting the research for review, a lot of researchers said, "Well, duh, that's that's obvious. That's just physiology." And I said, "No, that's not. We're not thinking about this you know, the same way. No, it's not just And that when we exercise and we use more oxygen, we actually produce more metabolic toxins, things we call like reactive oxygenated species. We Our bodies have to work harder to get rid of those things in addition to getting the benefits from exercise. So, that's where I think sauna has this lever of potential that we haven't studied yet. What about doing breath work in the sauna? I think there could be layers of benefit there that are unexplored. Well, I feel if you ever decide to do that particular study in a lot more detail, I'll sign up for it because I do do breath work in my sauna.

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do breath work in my sauna. Good. Me too. I do think it makes a I think it is adding like frosting on a cake of benefits. [clears throat] Yeah, So, don't worry. I'll take you up on that. [laughter] Good. Well, I mean like anecdotal as I said, it's it's I've been measuring my HRV because it's something that I've been focusing on it and it I have noticed a difference. So, maybe there is something in it. So, we we shall say. I definitely think there's something in it, but proving it is a different yeah, different kettle of fish. Yeah, of course. Look, this the Finnish study on saunas has been widely cited, right? And and in particular in terms of the perceived benefits of towards longevity. And so, and again, you mentioned cardiovascular disease as well and that was highlighted in that particular study. Do we know if it's causative or are we overestimating the data, do you think? Well, I can definitely say we we haven't proven it's causative yet. What we have done is we've uh suggested some very strong correlations. So, yes, this population and and here we are talking about a very particular population in Finland, Eastern Finland. And this population of Initially, it was mostly men. They only allowed women at the you know, after it was going for about 10 or 20 years and they're like, "Oh, yeah, I guess we need to add women in there, too." Um but No, no question of it. There these cardiovascular events but these let's get it straight. This population, they're frequent sauna bathers. Yeah. You know, they were In fact, they had troubles when they were studying. So, they they did something called observational studies. So, they took a cohort of people, signed them up, you know, characterized them up and down and then followed them. So, this was they did over 2, 000 men to start with and then now it's I think it's over 4, 000

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then now it's I think it's over 4, 000 now and it's still ongoing. And they followed them over 20 years. And now it's probably getting closer to 30 years that they're going to have data on. And what they noticed is those that sauna bathed three to four times a week compared to those that sauna bathed just once a week, they couldn't get enough people um men especially in the beginning who didn't sauna bathe at all. So, we have to keep that That gets missed in a lot of coverage about sauna bathing is it's a frequent thing. It's not a one-off thing. These are people that have been doing it, you know, year in, year out for over 20 years and that frequently. So, that's where the sweet spot is with sauna that we know of with the cardiovascular. It wasn't just cardiovascular, they looked at respiratory benefits, less pneumonia, they looked at dementia, less onset of dementia to those that are frequently sauna bathing. It's and less uh hospitalizations, less uh markers of inflammation, something called CRP in the blood. So, they it's just keeps piling and they it's been a great pile up of benefits that we see with sauna, but it's frequent sauna bathing. But now, revisiting it from my own practice, I'm not sure that you need to do it that frequently. And especially with women around preventing hot flashes, which is one of my um interests, everyone gets caught up into thinking they've got to do three or four times a week. I don't know about that. We Again, we haven't studied. We don't have enough data to know. Maybe it's just once a week. Maybe it's just twice a week. Again, it's exercising that thermoregulatory system is what it's all about. And does that mean exposure to heat? Does it mean exposure to cold? We haven't even talked about it. Does it mean heavy sweating? I don't know. I'm not sure. I don't think we have enough data to answer that question definitively yet.

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definitively yet. Yeah. For for women in particular or for men and women? Well, men and women, I think there's Again, there's so much more data on men than there are women. Women are tricky and they're challenging, but I also think that might be where there's more benefit. Maybe we've been focusing on the you know, maybe we're showing all this pilot, but maybe the benefits are even more with women because thermoregulation and our female hormones are so intertwined. And one of the things I'm finding when I'm working with perimenopausal women, which is kind of a focus of my clinic is is women's health, female health. I am finding that a sauna is useful for preventing the vasomotor symptoms or hot flashes is what we'll commonly say. When it's done before the onset. Once the onset's there, it's a lot trickier. It's harder to use sauna to get to you you can, but I'd have to say what I've noticed and it was mostly in my global sauna survey is that a number of women just happened to mention in in the all the questions I was asking them, they would say one of the health benefits they noticed is that they did not suffer from hot flashes as much as some of their other family members or family friends uh because and they felt it would had to do with the sauna that was helping them. Yeah. Well, that's interesting because I had Dr. Anna Cabeca on the podcast some time ago and she also advocates saunas for women going through perimenopause and menopause for trying to mitigate the hot flashes as well. So, she's an advocate for it. I do wonder whether you know, how do you predict you're going to have a hot flash before you get into the sauna before you're actually experiencing it? Yeah, I I'm not convinced that its value is is as much in therapy as it is in prevention. And that's why I think uh sauna bathing more [clears throat] frequently as you know that you're

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frequently as you know that you're entering that zone, which can be 10 years before you actually lose your period. So, we know perimenopause and menopause are a much longer phenomenon than was ever acknowledged before. Yeah, well, it starts in in mid-30s as early as 35 as I understand it, right? So, for some women. And we are seeing it younger and again not understanding all the factors that might be contributing to that. But yes, I am see Yeah. So, I was just going to say, Troy, that is do you think that's because and know we're going a little bit off topic of the sauna, but do you think it's because we are starting to see epigenetic influences that maybe contributing to women starting earlier in in perimenopause or is it that we just weren't studied enough and we're starting to better understand how perimenopause works? I think I have to take both of those options. I can't just choose one. I think you're right. I think and there's probably options we're not even talking about that we don't even know about yet that might be going on there. You know, is it that women are starting their cycles earlier? I mean, that's another phenomenon that you know, and what are the influences the epigenetic influences that might be uh leading to that. So, there's all kinds and and look, electromagnetic energy all around us. We're huge social experiment right now. What's going on in life on Earth? I mean, it's weird. Yeah. It's hard to know. We don't have a lot of controls anymore [laughter] that are left to compare to. And just along for the ride, right? Yes. [laughter] [laughter] Just just a little bit more on that that Finnish study because it did highlight the impact on all cause mortality and they were some fairly significant figures that the study stated. Did you just want to run us through those if you wouldn't mind? Yes. Well, they definitely showed 66% which is a big

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which is a big reduction in in those that sauna bathed more frequently in all cause Well, it was 40% all cause mortality. So, 40% decrease and 60 I believe it was 64. 5% decrease in cardiovascular events, sudden cardiac deaths basically. And for right now, that is Well, that may be changing soon, but that is our leading cause of at least in the first world countries, of death. So, that's where it has its biggest longevity punch, is that it's reducing that cardiovascular morbidity and mortality. But, you know, yes, but that's again, that's looking at one population. So, the genetics were we're not looking we still need to conduct these studies in other gene pools, basically. Because we know now we are all products of genes as well as epigenetics. And there's different combinations that can have, you know, so who knows? Maybe there is a population where sauna and thermoregulation don't work as well in certain genetic pools. Like, for example, there was a fascinating study out of Saudi Arabia. And I believe it was a Danish researcher who presented these results, I don't know, about 8 years ago. But, they did something called transcriptomics. So, they were looking at the activations of genes in white blood cells that they were getting from what transcriptomics is? Is that what that is? is the science of measuring changes in gene activity. So, it's this whole omics revolution that is again our our understanding about biology, and especially public health understanding, has gotten lower. And that's a whole set I'm getting off topic, but I I'm so disappointed that people aren't embracing biology more because that's the study of us. But, there's a

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the study of us. But, there's a revolution that's been going on for these last 10 to 20 years, and it's in our laboratory values of measurement. And it has to do with genomics, which is means not just looking at one or two genes, it's looking at every single gene of the body. So, we now have this ability, and it was just in 2001 that we did the first whole genome sequencing, meaning getting the DNA code for every single DNA, you know, all the DNA in in every cell of our body. So, that's genomics. Then, after genomics came this idea of transcriptomics. So, we use our code to make proteins. And we call that transcription. So, transcriptomics is looking at gene activity, not just what your genetic code is. If you think of like building a house, you've got a blueprint, but then it's the building materials you use, it's how the techniques you use. So, that's where we look at transcriptomics, how these genes are activated. Right. And then, something that I that was near and dear to my heart with my PhD is something called metabolomics. So, that's actually looking at, well, what are all the substances in a biofluid, like blood or like sweat, which is what I focused on. Not just looking for It's not like just fishing. You know how when you fish, you're putting there and you're probing for a certain thing. This is taking a handful of water of seawater looking at everything in that seawater, every single molecule, everything. It's a whole different way of looking at finding knowledge about something. And that mirrors what's happening with precision medicine. We are now having the tools to not just look at one thing at a time and just look at that, target that, but look at the whole thing. So, when transcriptomics, so what they did, and even that, they were looking at a

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and even that, they were looking at a array of genes. So, they weren't looking at every single gene activation in this particular white blood cell. This is going back to the Saudi Arabia study of sauna. They were looking at a stress involved genes, genes that we know produce stress-related metabolites. And what they found when they did this, and there's another Well, let me talk about findings and I'll talk about another little caveat with it. And what they found is that they couldn't tell the difference between the stress that was involved in the blood draw, cuz you know, having your blood taken is a stress is stressful for a lot of people, and what the sauna was doing. They There was too much noise. They couldn't decipher what the differences were. Right. And now we know that most of us feel better after doing a sauna than we do getting our blood drawn. So, that's telling you something. The other interesting thing is that these Saudi Arabians who live in dry heat, you know, 50 ° heat all the time, they did not view the sauna as something nice to have to do. They were like, "Okay, we'll do it for these researchers. This is not pleasant." So, it was a nocebo effect as opposed to a placebo Mhm. effect. Right. And that might have influenced the results, too. And so, there's so much going on, and that goes back to the mind. And that's again where I think the power of sauna has not even been touched yet. I mean, it's starting to, but I think that's where a lot of benefits are happening. And that's what came out of my Global Sauna Survey is people said the major findings were, "I sleep better after I'm in the sauna. I feel better after I'm in sauna." But, it's hard. We don't have biomarkers for all of those things yet. So, that's where I think we're Watch the sauna space. Watch it with mental health. I think that's where we're going to find even better benefits than maybe just cardiovascular.

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cardiovascular. That would be amazing, because I know that with women in particular, I mean, cardiovascular disease, heart attacks are a major killer of women, particularly in Australia, but it's been jumped now by, you know, dementia and Alzheimer's, right? So I am so glad you're mentioning that, but like I said, I think these are opposite sides of the same coin. I think they're going hand-in - hand. Um and yes, and we're timing our chat so well because the Australian government just did an awareness campaign around menopause and perimenopause this week. So Okay, good. And that that fact has been highlighted highlighted repeatedly this week which which I'm so glad to see because we don't completely understand dementia. We're studying and in fact, I'm involved in some studies and some groups that are trying to we're applying for grants to study it especially in women, especially around heat, using heat and sauna, but the biomarkers we're using, we're not sure is that the chicken or the egg? I mean, is this just showing the aftermath of what's happened or is this really involved in the mechanisms? We don't know yet. I mean, we're doing a lot of work on it, but I can't say anything with such conviction that I sometimes hear a lot of podcasters and stuff saying I just go, "I'm not sure that we know that enough [laughter] yet to say that." So A true scientific answer, Mona, I just say. [laughter] And the other thing Yeah, and the other thing I wonder about is plastics. I mean Oh, yeah. You're right. Are we just I mean, why is dementia increasing so much? Is it just that our awareness is increasing and that we're we have a name for it? Has it We know there's evidence that people have been dying of dementia. Are we just living longer? We we don't know about all of this. And so I wonder, you know, plastics really only became widespread introduced into first world countries in

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introduced into first world countries in the' 60s. They really haven't touched every corner of the world till probably more than 90s. I'm what And now that we're finding microplastics, especially, are get concentrated in our brain tissue as opposed to other tissues of our body, I can't help but wonder, maybe that's the epigenetic factor that we're up against. And And that's where we get to that whole sauna detox, you know? Is Is some of the benefit of sauna detox? Well, that's where is a lot of controversy, and it's a problem of lexicology, too, because when scientists refer to detox, we're talking about usually detox from harmful substances like alcohol or detox from carcinogens. Whereas, when people, especially sauna goers, are talking about detox, they're talking about that deep purification feeling, that that kind of renewal feeling, that That's so our terminology gets really mixed up a lot. And then there's the whole scientists knowing and practitioners knowing that look, our our major detox human detox organs are our liver and kidney, by far. I mean, that's where 90% of what's going on. But that's not to say that nothing is going on in the skin and sweat. And it really you asked me before, what bothers me about scientists talking about saunas? Well, I just hate when someone says, "Oh, look, the only thing in sweat is water and salt." I'm like, "No. That's 50-year - old thinking. We know now, in using these new laboratory techniques like I explained with metabolomics, there is so much more in sweat than we ever imagined. And yes, it is 99% water, and yes, there's a lot of sodium chloride, but that's not all. And we find evidence

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but that's not all. And we find evidence of heavy metals. And in my study I found evidence of organophosphates, even some that were banned 10 years before it forever chemicals. They Some of those are in us and they're in our sweat. So, as well as um synthetic uh pyrethroids, so what we use to repel mosquitoes. Well, that's in our sweat, too. Luckily, there's evidence that that metabolizes fairly quickly, but things like the organophos phates and some of these forever chemicals don't metabolize as quickly. Yeah, which is a real concern, isn't it, for your health overall and and your longevity because you're not wanting those forever chemicals to be sitting in your body for forever. No. And another interesting thing about sweat is there's a lot more fat in sweat than we ever imagined. So, we we always talk about, oh yeah, it's 99% water. But, that's not to say that there isn't lipid particles in there. And it's the lipid particles that are fascinating and understudied. So, I'm suggesting some of those lipid particles might be hormones, that whole idea of pheromones. You know, the And no question we've we've got lots of interesting oddball studies out there. So, women when they live in the same household, uh they can often start to sync their menstruation. Yep. Look, it's probably something coming out in our sweat. Now, there was a recent study, maybe about 3 years ago published saying, "Oh, we've debunked that. There's nothing to that." But, when I actually read the bones of the study, they included women that were on the pill, which is not the best way to study that because those women are having controlled levels of hormones. Yeah, so when they said they debunked it, I said, "Oh, that study wasn't done very well." I'm convinced and you talk to almost any woman who's lived with another woman and there is something that happens around periods.

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something that happens around periods. There's no question. I I've experienced it myself so many times. Yeah. anything those on those who are taking the pill or or on some sort of hormonal control, they're the ones we sync to because they're the ones that can't change as much as as others can. So, there's so much we don't know. We're at a tip of an iceberg of a lot of this. Well, I think your research into sweat as a biofluid is really fascinating because I mean who would think that sweat could tell us so much about our health and you've just outlined a little bit there, but it seems like it it could go on forever in terms of some of the things you findings. Right now, what's going on the last 5-10 years since I finished my PhD, there are so many startups. So, it's more in the startup area. They're creating these devices that are powered by your sweat because there are all all these electrolytes in sweat as as some heavy metals and things. Think about batteries. They're creating chemical batteries from our own sweat. So, I watch this space. I think it's we're going to find out a more and more that's in sweat. No question of it. Do you think it's one of the most underrated biomarkers in medicine? Well, until we know more, yes. I mean it's it's definitely So, what are the pro there's pros and cons of sweat. Let's let's go through it. So, the pro of of sweat is obviously that it's easy to collect. You don't have to stress anyone. You don't have to stick a needle in and or or get underneath the skin, you know, so it's easy to collect. But that's also it's So, its superpower is also what makes its kryptonite because it's easily contaminated with all kinds of things. So, when we like I worked with a a group that was trying to use it to look at glucose metabolism Because there is glucose levels that fluctuate in sweat. However, it was so difficult because of all the contamination. So, that's why most of the continuous

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that's why most of the continuous glucose monitors you see now involve looking at the interstitial fluid. So, you have to get underneath. Sweat alone can't tell you enough about what's going on metabolically. But yes, it's definitely ignored. It's it's definitely under researched. Let's put it that way. Whether it's going to have the same potential to tell us as much, I'm not sure. I mean, there's layers to that, too. For example, going to something as basic as water. The properties of water are different when it's in a confined environment versus when it's in an open environment. So, sweat is in an open environment. In fact, sweat is designed to evaporate. So, already when we collect sweat, we're already missing something. Something's already gone in the air. And And in fact, there are groups working on research groups trying to capture not only sweat, but the air right around as you sweat. Because we're missing those molecules. They're airborne. And those are things like volatile organic chemicals. And again, that's where there's a rich totally understudied. We don't know. In fact, this is where animals dogs. In fact, we've used dogs around COVID. I don't know if you remember, we were installing COVID dogs in Finnish airports. And what they they were basing it off sweat samples. So, they would swab someone and then present it to these dogs to know who was infected with COVID or not. So, they're already telling you there is content immune content going on that And it was amazingly accurate. It's not right. And that was before we had the antigen testing. So, and and dog we know that animals, dogs, cats, many different mammals have a much higher defined sense of smell than you or I. So, we're missing There's already a layer to sweat

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missing There's already a layer to sweat we we don't know about. And that's that volatile content of sweat. It it really is quite amazing. And and you mentioned plastics in sweat. And I wonder whether you can shed any light on on the theory that if you're doing a sauna and you're sweating out the toxins, are you sweating out plastics as well, microplastics? And and Or is that just a myth? Well, there is evidence. Again, it's we're arguing about scale. Now, most of these plastics are cleared through our urine to a much greater degree than to our sweat. But no, there's evidence of many different BPA, phthalates. There is definitely evidence of these in our human sweat. But the amounts that are getting clearing in sweat, especially, you know, sweat just taken on a casual day or just one sauna session, that's minuscule compared to the amount that's cleared through your liver and kidneys. And each type of plastic is cleared differently. So, it's not like we can generalize like this. So, that's why I think the health benefits of sauna and sweating are when you do it day in, day out, you know, week in, week out. It's the cumulative effects. Like exercise. You know, someone just just runs a marathon, it doesn't mean that they're healthy and they're going to live for their longevity is increased by that one episode. And that's how we have to start to think about with sauna and with sweating, like we were just talking about. So, I I the detox potential of sweating is when you're sweating frequently, not just what we're able to collect and capture with one single episode. So, the cumulative effect. I did hear also recently came to hear your thoughts on this one that if we're sitting in a sauna and we're sweating as we all do that you should not allow the sweat to just sit on the skin and then dry off when you walk out of the sauna that you

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when you walk out of the sauna that you should be wiping it off because otherwise the toxins that have been sweated out are being reabsorbed into the skin. Is there any fact in that? Look, there's fact in both. [laughter] I mean so there's pros and cons. Okay, so yes, there is evidence that we reabsorb a lot from our sweat. No question. Our bodies are designed so frugally. We conserve everything. So, no, it makes sense that we would reabsorb things from sweat. But we absorb good stuff, not just bad stuff. So, yes, there is evidence that we reabsorb. But remember I just talked about that lipid content of sweat? Well, anyone who sauna baths and sweats enough to realize that you get this kind of cream your sweat becomes creamy. The longer you're It's you get an exfoliation. There's always different stages that go on, but you don't realize until you sauna frequently. And like I know with the group that I sauna with, we talk about first pass, second pass, third pass and it sometimes my the exfoliation you feel, the crunchies you start to feel in your sweat. That doesn't start from the first pass, from the first 15 minutes. That usually doesn't start until we've been in there for 45 minutes or an hour. And then it's what I notice is the creaminess is afterwards. So, I've changed thoughts on that and look, there isn't evidence about this. There is evidence that it improves our skin, that saunas improve the lipid layer, the water barrier functions of our skin. There's some really good German studies around that. But you only get that if you let the lipid portion of your sweat remain on. If you go underneath the water with soap and water and remove that, yeah, you might be removing some of the toxins, but you're removing that lipid benefit as well. That creaminess that is adding

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as well. That creaminess that is adding that moisture barrier to your skin. You you've mentioned exercise a lot in comparison to to sauna and I think it's fascinating that sauna often behaves like exercise for people who can't exercise. Is sauna an exercise mimetic? Well, it is in the ways that I told you. So you're getting that increased cardiovascular, increased blood circulation movement, which is part of that benefit to the the linings of the blood vessel. But I mentioned before that exercise makes you breathe faster. And exercise actually creates metabolic toxins that you have to get rid of. And that's where I think sauna could maybe have an edge over those that have difficulty breathing, you know, that get into trouble when they breathe fast. So people in heart failure, people with uh COPD, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, emphysema. Those are the populations that have difficulty exercising because they can't breathe fast. That's where I think sauna might prove to be beneficial for them because it allows them to get those cardiovascular uh increased blood flow, help with the the health of exercising their blood vessels and their heart, but without having to produce and have to handle all these reactive oxygenated species. Another one for you. Okay. Infrared sauna or Finnish sauna? Because there's different views out there, which is better in your view? Look, I think they're both have their benefits. They're They are slightly different, but it's more almost a marketing thing and has to do with cultural overlay, too. So, let's talk about the pros and cons of each. So, infrared tends to be marketed as we discussed the nature of the energy is

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discussed the nature of the energy is you have to have panels, either ceramic or carbon fiber emitters, that need to be fairly close. It's like microwave cooking versus traditional oven cooking. People don't like me using this. microwaving ourselves? Are we microwaving ourselves? are using energy waves. And that's what you're cooking your food in. And look, that argument could go on, but some people, I will say working with people, some people swear by it. They really enjoy You can run it lower temperatures because you're heating your skin more so than just the air that's leading to the skin, which is what happens more in a Finnish style sauna. So, yes, some of the benefits, but some of the drawbacks about infrared sauna is you can't introduce water into that. You know, like if you introduce moisture water, that doesn't work well with the infrared emitters. So, you really can't be using contrast therapy within the sauna the way that you can in the Finnish style sauna or traditional sauna, where you can pour water and create little steam baths. I mean, we haven't talked about the difference between infrared and traditional and steam sauna or wet saunas were sometimes called them in the literature. So, those are different. So, they are all a little different, but there's benefits and drawbacks. And And infrared saunas are cheaper. They're more affordable. They're more portable. But, that's a marketing thing. Could we make Finnish style saunas that are more individual based and smaller, more portable? Yes, but that's not how the marketing and the cultural overlay has worked. So, it's kind of a trick question, but I have both. I have one of each. I have a Finnish style sauna that's larger that my husband and I we had to build. So, it was more expensive, but that's the one we use when we want to have a a social

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we use when we want to have a a social sauna, when we want to have our neighbors over for a sauna, or or when we both want to get in. Whereas my infrared sauna, it's really I mean, it's marketed as a two or three person sauna, but who are we fooling? It's really for one person. It's really only comfortable for one person. I have squeezed a few friends in there before, but it's not the preference. But, I can have Bluetooth. Uh you know, a lot of them are Bluetooth, so I can get work done in the sauna. Yeah. So, to me, that's a benefit that I can't do with my infrared sauna. It's harder to do work in the traditional sauna. So, I actually think it's a trick question because we're all different in our preferences and our needs and what time in life we're at. I mean, that's the other thing is sauna our sauna protocols and things need to be not only individualized to the person, but where they are in their life. You know, a 20-year - old, I'm going to devise a different sauna protocol after running a battery test on him, it's going to be a different sauna protocol than that same person if they present to me at 60. It's going to have a whole different parameter, different set of aims. So, and the more we find out about sauna and how it can be this tool that can be used in many different ways, that's going to change. In fact, my prediction is we are going to come up with a whole separate therapies. We're going to call them sauna therapists or thermo therapists. There's going to be a whole like exercise physiologist. I think we're going to have sauna physiologist in the future because there are so many different parameters to control and to adjust in using it as therapy. But, the other thing is that we have to be careful that we don't get tunnel vision. And that's what I work hard at. I mean, I'm a I love saunas and I love using them as therapy, but that is not the only thing I do in my clinic. You know, it we got to cover the basics. You have to look at your food. You have to look at your movement. You have to look at

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at your movement. You have to look at at your purpose in life. You have to look at your habits. Oh, that's the other thing that happens a lot is I'll have someone come in. They've heard that I I do so I help them come up with sauna protocols and they're smoker. And I look at them and I go, "What are you doing here?" You know, "No. Yes, I can give you a sauna protocol, but nothing that is going to counteract enough what you're doing with smoking." And that can be vaping. That's the other one that is right now the headache that I'm dealing with is people come in and think their vaping is better than the smoking they were doing and I'm like, "No, if anything, those volatile organic chemicals that are coming from vaping, oh my gosh, they are so toxic." They are So, so there's So, sauna is a tool. It is not the cure to everything [laughter] on earth. Certainly not. And I completely agree with you. It is a tool and it is a hack that we incorporate as part of our daily protocol to be able to try to ensure better wellness. So, you mentioned that you have different types of sauna protocols for different ages. And let's just quickly whip through that because I know there a lot of our listeners, our ladies will be wanting to do a bit of a deeper dive into that. So, if you're 20 to 30, what should you be doing in terms of your sauna protocol? There is not a one-size - fits-all. That's like going to an exercise physiologist and saying, "What kind of exercise should we do in our 20s and 30s?" Well, it depends on your resources. You know, if you're a 20 - or 30-year - old and you're going to a gym regularly, I'd say your protocol is going to be based on what sauna is accessible to you. What's easy for you to do. So, if your gym has an infrared sauna, it's going to be an infrared sauna-based protocol. If your gym has, you know, So, there's so many different That's why it takes a whole consultation. That's why I think it's

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consultation. That's why I think it's going to be a whole science. There isn't one-size - fits-all for every age group, and there isn't one-size - fits-all for every gender. It's not like all women need to think about this. Although, I will say in the literature or in the findings so far, women tend to be more sensitive to temperature and to humidity than, say, males of the same age. But again, it's early days in the findings. But in general, I do tend to prescribe gentler protocols, especially in getting started than say, and definitely as we age, so the older age groups are going to be more sensitive to those temperature. And we we know that from data around heat waves and emergency room visits. We know older people, especially older people who have been in that comfort void, where they've had the air conditioner or the heater on for most of the last 20 years of their life. So, they are their thermoregulatory system is just so unexercised and so super sensitive. So, we already know, you know, so it depends and then it depends on what type of health issues they have and what type of genetics they have. There's so many different layers to this. That's where there's going to be the art and science of thermotherapy coming. I can see it in the future. I can't wait. But, that's that's what I want to see get going is that this is a tool that is so underutilized and I think it's getting that mindset, the way we had to do with exercise in the 1960s, 1970s. We need to get that awareness that, "Hey, it's not just an indulgence. It can be a tool, but there needs to be more intention around it and intention and the effects of the mind looked at." And we still need Yeah, we still need more data to be able to come

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still need more data to be able to come up with the safety markers around sauna, too. And that's the other thing. I mean, exercise is not a 100% safe activity, either. There's many people on marathons that pass out, that have a cardiac event, and that's the same with sauna. So, when I did my global sauna survey, I had a few people write in and say, "Look, I did have a heart attack right after that. I do think the sauna was contributory, but does that mean that I will never go in the sauna again? No, but there were other factors involved, too. So, that's where I think a lot of practitioners, especially the more conservative specialists and uh more allopathic doctors, they're right to be a little cautious. They wait a minute, it's not for everyone. So, for example, someone who has aortic stenosis, that's a type of heart valve issue that can lead to very variable blood pressure. Yeah, if someone's coming to me with aortic stenosis that's moderate or severe, I'm not going to be giving them a sauna protocol. Absolutely not. I could drop their blood pressure and kill them in the sauna. So, we're not good at researching the downsides of sauna. That's another problem I have with sauna research is we tend to focus on the rosy side, but there is a dark side to sauna and we we have to embrace that before we can use it safely as a tool for health. I think it's really good advice because I know personally I love a good sauna. I prefer a Finnish sauna even though I have an infrared sauna at home. I do prefer a Finnish sauna because I find they're hotter and I love heat and I find that the infrared sauna doesn't get as hot as a Finnish sauna. But over the years when I do contrast therapy as an example, if I've gone into a steam sauna, I find that way too hot personally. And then if I do cold plunges as well when I was younger, my body coped with cold plunges no problem, but I've noticed recently that if I do a cold plunge particularly after a steam, that my blood pressure drops rapidly and I get wobbly legs and I

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rapidly and I get wobbly legs and I start to feel faint and I'm like, "What is going on?" So, I'm like, "Okay, listen to your body as you need to stop doing this." Well, you've brought up another issue we haven't covered this yet, but I had mentioned I hinted that steam saunas are a different beast. And the reason why is we discussed that our major way of thermoregulation as humans as mammals is by sweating. And sweat, the way that sweat works is by that evaporation. Well, guess what? When you go into a 90 or 100% steam sauna, do you think any evaporation can happen? Absolutely not. So, even though you feel like you're covered in sweat in a steam sauna, you're sweating shut Well, it it doesn't absolutely shut down, but it is vastly reduced because your sweat can't evaporate. Now, when you walk out of that steam sauna, yes, suddenly, especially if it's not as humid outside, yes, then suddenly you're able to sweat. But, with that, that's a bigger So, your your core temperature has gone up. It goes up higher and faster. There's really good Polish studies that have compared dry saunas versus wet saunas. No question about a steam sauna, a wet sauna causes more stress on the physiological system. So, that means your heart rate goes higher quicker. Your blood pressure goes higher quicker in a steam sauna as opposed to a dry sauna. So, no question of that. And then, when you throw contrast therapy, which to me is another way of racking up the intensity of sauna, because a racking up the intensity of stress that you're putting on your thermoregulatory system. Yeah, so it doesn't surprise me at all that if you don't like steam saunas to start with, and then you you add on contrast therapy, it's like you've decided to go from a 5K run to a marathon uh in one weekend, you know? It just doesn't No, your your system is complaining. No question of it. I get

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complaining. No question of it. I get it. You've touched on some medical conditions to consider when implementing a sauna protocol. What medical conditions do you think sauna should be used alongside conventional treatment, but currently isn't? Well, heart failure is the big one that I don't see adopted enough. In Japan, they have some infrared It tends to be infrared, something called waon therapy, that they actually have an available in their hospitals as part of cardiac rehab. Whereas, again, we're we won't touch it. We're in a prison of of ideas here that they has no role. In fact, we tell most people, if you have a cardiac condition, not to get into the sauna. Whereas, really, there is a safe time. Maybe not when you're unstable and just had a cardiac event, but definitely I think 3 to 6 months afterwards and you are recovering. I think sauna can be part of that. So, I'd like to see sauna be more used as adjunct therapy in heart failure and after and in cardiac rehabilitation, late cardiac rehabilitation, not acute. I also think with depression and mood instability, I and then I'm involved right now in setting up studies around perimenopause and menopause. I think we should be starting to at least get the data to look at and test it because I suspect it could be part of our therapy as opposed to just straight going to hormone replacement. Or for those who can't take hormone replacement. So, someone who's had a breast cancer, other female hormone related type cancer, they don't even have that option. So, giving them another option like this, like sauna, would be a really I think a good adjunct therapy. But now you're bringing up something really interesting and this is our directions of study. So, I've been experimenting with there's a new drug out for hot flashes for women who can't take hormone therapy. But there's no

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take hormone therapy. But there's no question of it. Menopausal hormonal therapy works the best for taking care of and and of vasomotor symptoms, hot flashes. But there's this new medicine called Veozah that has been available in Australia for almost 2 years now and I'm starting to see that it it has some benefits. So, one of the studies it is working for some of these women that can't take hormones. And whether that's because they have a blood clotting issue. So, that's another population a lot of people don't realize is someone who has had a pulmonary embolus or a blood clot in their past, yeah, estrogen-containing hormones are not on the list of what it's safe for them to take. So, it is safe if they also take a medicine that anticoagulates them, which is starts to be an issue cuz now you're starting to have to take two medications. So, anyway, this Veozah has actually worked kind of well with some, not all, but some women, and it makes me think it involves these receptors in the hypothalamus. They're called um neurokinin receptors, and I'm thinking that would be an interesting one to compare alongside Sona. Like whether it would be nice to do a crossover study to compare this Veozah, have the same women So, do a crossover, have them take the Veozah for a while, then a washout period, then Sona regularly, and then a washout period, and then maybe do both. And then maybe have them do nothing at the beginning, so we get a sense. Maybe there's synergistic benefits to that. Again, this is all unexplored territory, you know, in terms of funding, which is the hard part, is who funds this. And that's why women haven't been studied as much. Unfortunately, most of our I shouldn't say this, but a lot of philanthropists There's more and more women now, but most of them are men. So, [laughter] that that at least and I'm old, so most

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that that at least and I'm old, so most of what I've dealt with in the past, it's always been men. So, it'll be interesting. But, we're coming into great times, great, promising times to see if we can answer some of these questions. But, that's an area of Yeah, that's really near and dear to my heart is looking at how we can help that. How help them. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's some really great opportunities in women's health for investors moving forward and and philanthropists who are wanting to invest in in women's health research because it has been understudied, and I think it was only in 1993 that the FDA approved that women being included in clinical trials. And so that wasn't that long ago, right? No, it wasn't that long ago. [laughter] So when we think about how women have been left out of the equation for so long and everything prior to that was developed based on male biology, then what have we been doing to ourselves, ladies, in terms of Right? In terms of And all of our guidelines are based on data that's mostly male. And that really that has to change. We are not little men, you know. No, absolutely. One final question for you before I let you go because I know you have to go, but what are the biggest sort of mistakes that people make that could blunt the benefits of sauna or even make it unsafe? Okay. Well, in my global sauna study, I I also asked, you know, what what were bad sauna sessions like for a lot of people. And uh the three most common were bad headaches, uh low blood pressure. Those are the main ones that they mentioned, and both are related to dehydration. So we talked about sweat being 99% water. Well, that water has to come from somewhere. [laughter] And and it's got to be in you already. It's not like you can spray yourself with water and that's going to help your sweating. So I'd say people going into the sauna dehydrated.

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the sauna dehydrated. Relative dehydrated. And they might not even realize it. But yeah, making sure that you've had plenty of oral hydration. And when I say that, I don't mean just water. That's a big misconception a lot of people have is, "Oh, but I drank three glasses of water before I went in the sauna." Well, guess what? Plain water, especially if it's not mixed with food that contains electrolytes, it just goes straight through you. It's a great exercise for your kidney and urination, but it actually isn't making you hydrated. Hydrated is when you get the water molecules where they need to be, and that's inside your organs. That's out of the bloodstream. That's in in the case of sweating, that's in the sweat gland. So, to be hydrated, you've got to have enough water in those sweat glands so that they can produce sweat. That's the major one. So, part with me, I'm always before I go in the sauna, I make sure I've got an electrolyte or that I've just I don't like to sauna right after eating. So, that's why usually it's not water with food that agrees best with me, but everyone's individual. I have other friends who have no problems eating a big lunch and getting into the sauna. So, it's just again, this is very personalized, but hydration, That's And both the major adverse effects we hear about drops in blood pressure, those headaches, low blood pressure, that's all having to do with hydration issues. So, who knows? These people, were they hydrated enough when they went in? So, that's number one. The other one that gets overlooked a lot is if you've had a sunburn. Remember, sweat glands are embedded in the largest organ in your body, your skin. And if that skin is compromised, if you do not have enough water barrier to hold that water in where it needs to be, you can lose a lot of water. You can get very dehydrated. And even in my I found this out when I did my clinical trial, one of my participants

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clinical trial, one of my participants had been to the Gold Coast, actually. She'd gotten a mild sunburn, and I didn't see it on her. I mean, the redness was all gone, but she did happen to mention me, "Oh, yeah, I got sunburned on the weekend." And I think this was like a Monday or something. And when I went to collect her sweat, I could not collect her sweat. It's like I'd see it, and then it disappeared. I could not actually pipette it off her skin. I'm like, this is weird. And I was able to collect her sweat easily when she had bicycles and in the control section. So, to me, it was definitely that's when the light bulb moment went off is like, oh, her sunburn is making her sweating not as efficient because she's losing that water. So, skin disorders, someone who's got eczema, like extensive eczema, or anything where the the barrier function of the skin, so like a bad sunburn or a big enough burn, if you've had a significant burn of enough of your body, you should not be getting into the sauna. And most people tell me that it hurts, too. So, it's a common sense kind of thing, too. You get in there, you're like, uh I don't even want to be in there. So, but there are, like I said, I was surprised she didn't have any problems in the infrared sauna, especially lower temperatures, so not as uncomfortable, but when it came to sweat, no question, it was she wasn't sweating properly. And she was probably at risk that day of getting more dehydrated than say a normal session would have been with normal intact skin. Amazing. Well, yeah, it is to me I suppose a no-brainer that if you've got a sunburn or that you got any sort of third-degree burns, you do not go into a sauna. Yeah, but hey, don't don't assume everyone's got that common sense. absolutely not. I've I'm 100% agreeing, not everybody is is aware of that that that's the case. I know I'm like I've gone and had a massage after I've been sunburnt, so that wasn't exactly comfortable either, so. [laughter] And and it's interesting you had talked

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And and it's interesting you had talked about underuse of sauna, but that's where I feel sauna really shines is synergistically. So, a massage combined with sauna, oh, the massage therapist I've gone to just said, oh, if everyone could have a sauna before they get a massage, they would get so much more out of the Yeah. out of the massage because you don't have to warm up the muscles, they're already warm. You You know, you can just dive straight in. So, there it's the synergistic uses of sauna that also are very unexplored. Mhm. Yeah, I love that. I love having a sauna before my massage because I agree with you. It warms up the muscles and you don't feel like if you they're going to do a a deep you know, tissue tissue a deep tissue or remedial massage that you're not going to be jumping off the table as they start to get in there and then [laughter] and get those knots out. At least you warmed up a little bit beforehand. Look, Dr. Joy Hussain, I would talk to you all day, I think, because you just have such a wealth of information and and knowledge about you and it's been an absolute delight to chat with you today and thank you for all the work that you do and uh thank you for coming on the podcast today. Well, it was my pleasure. That was a fun conversation and uh I hope we both have a good sauna soon. I've planned to have one tonight, absolutely. Me, too. With this weather, it's time. It is. It's getting cold, so it's time to get warm. [laughter] [laughter] Yes, exactly. All right. Well, lovely to talk with you and um yeah. Thank you. And good heat. Well, that's a wrap for today's podcast. Thank you for tuning in and if you'd like to learn more about biohacking, go ahead and sign up on my website at www. biohack-her. com to get a free copy of my five top biohacks to get you kickstarted. While you're there, you can also check out my blog page for more tips on biohacking. If you'd like to subscribe

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biohacking. If you'd like to subscribe to this podcast, you can do so on Apple, Spotify, and Google Play. Let us know if there's anyone you'd like us to talk to you in particular and we'll endeavor to get them on the podcast. Until next time, remember to live well longer.