How Long to Cold Plunge: Dose, Timing, Safety | Vitruvian

Video·Best of Danny Jones·10 min read·October 31, 2025

Thomas Seager argues that the order of cold exposure matters: cold before movement may prime performance and hormones, while cold after training may blunt adaptation. The conversation also widens into safety, social media backlash, and how cold plunging moved from elite recovery rooms into everyday ritual.

The Protocol Question

The question is no longer whether cold exposure belongs in a recovery ritual. The sharper question is when it belongs. In this conversation, Thomas Seager makes a precise distinction: cold before movement can prime the body, while cold after hard training can change the adaptation you are trying to earn.

He calls the first approach precooling. Instead of ending a workout in an ice bath, he starts with cold, then follows it with light movement. That movement can be simple: a walk, an exercise bike, lunges, or steel mace work. The purpose is not punishment. The purpose is to rewarm deliberately and let the body organize itself around the stress.

Seager places this idea beside Craig Heller’s cooling research. Heller studied cooling between sets during strenuous work, showing that heat extraction could help the body maintain higher peak power and resist fatigue. Seager is not describing the same protocol, but he uses it as context. If cooling can change performance inside a workout, timing deserves attention before the workout begins.

The claim becomes more consequential when he turns to hormones. In his account, men who cool first and then move lightly show a stronger testosterone and luteinizing hormone response than those who use cold after training. Luteinizing hormone signals the body to produce testosterone; in plain terms, the order may influence energy, mood, and readiness.

That is the center of the protocol question. Cold is not a generic act of resilience. It is a dose, placed in time, with a specific intention. When you treat the plunge as a tool rather than a spectacle, order becomes part of the ritual. Restraint is the practice.

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we're doing is called precooling. Yeah. And you've probably been listening to And you've probably been listening to Craig Heler explain this to Herman. He's Craig Heler explain this to Herman. He's like he was doing per cooling, like he was doing per cooling, extracting heat between sets during a extracting heat between sets during a strenuous workout. strenuous workout. >> And Heler showed that if you cool the >> And Heler showed that if you cool the body, the mitochondria will increase body, the mitochondria will increase their peak power output and they will their peak power output and they will not get fatigued. So cooling will help not get fatigued. So cooling will help you reach a higher level of athletic you reach a higher level of athletic performance. Now, we're not per cooling performance. Now, we're not per cooling between sets. We're precooling the between sets. We're precooling the exercise. And here's what Heler didn't exercise. And here's what Heler didn't talk about. You get a big testosterone talk about. You get a big testosterone boost when men cool off first. And they boost when men cool off first. And they don't have to do a strenuous exercise don't have to do a strenuous exercise afterwards. Then they do 20 minutes. It afterwards. Then they do 20 minutes. It could be exercise bike. You go for a could be exercise bike. You go for a walk for half an hour. Uh I like doing walk for half an hour. Uh I like doing lunges. I like my steel mace. So, a lunges. I like my steel mace. So, a little bit of light exercise to rewarm little bit of light exercise to rewarm the limbs. They get a big boost in the limbs. They get a big boost in testosterone. And this explains my lab testosterone. And this explains my lab reports because I've been putting them reports because I've been putting them online now for five years. I'm a fat

online now for five years. I'm a fat 59year-old sedentary college professor 59year-old sedentary college professor and my testosterone is over a,000 nanogs and my testosterone is over a,000 nanogs per deciliter. So how do you think that per deciliter. So how do you think that happens? The testosterone is a happens? The testosterone is a reflection of your metabolism. reflection of your metabolism. Testosterone is made in the Testosterone is made in the mitochondria. And this is what people mitochondria. And this is what people don't realize that all sex hormones don't realize that all sex hormones originate in the mitochondria. So, if originate in the mitochondria. So, if your mitochondria aren't right, you your mitochondria aren't right, you can't possibly be synthesizing enough can't possibly be synthesizing enough sex hormones to have a higher level of sex hormones to have a higher level of testosterone. Turns out there's a study testosterone. Turns out there's a study goes way back to 1991 in which they goes way back to 1991 in which they tried ice well cold stimulation for tried ice well cold stimulation for recovery from exercise. Just like, you recovery from exercise. Just like, you know, your high school track coach says know, your high school track coach says you're supposed to do after practice, you're supposed to do after practice, >> right? >> right? >> That lowers testosterone. It lowers >> That lowers testosterone. It lowers luteinizing hormone. Luteinizing hormone luteinizing hormone. Luteinizing hormone is what signals the gonads to make the is what signals the gonads to make the testosterone. But if you reverse the testosterone. But if you reverse the order, which is what they did in 1991, order, which is what they did in 1991, if you do the cooling before you do the if you do the cooling before you do the exercise, luteinizing hormone goes up

exercise, luteinizing hormone goes up through the roof, testosterone goes up through the roof, testosterone goes up through the roof. So by reversing the through the roof. So by reversing the order, you get the hypertrophy, you get order, you get the hypertrophy, you get the muscle building hormone, plus you the muscle building hormone, plus you speed recovery. Everybody, and this is a speed recovery. Everybody, and this is a slight exaggeration, but everybody who slight exaggeration, but everybody who hasn't been listening to Joe Rogan on hasn't been listening to Joe Rogan on this is still doing it wrong. And then, this is still doing it wrong. And then, you know, whether it's Thomas Dauer or you know, whether it's Thomas Dauer or Peter Ailla or Biolain or somebody and Peter Ailla or Biolain or somebody and they'll do a video, ice baths don't work they'll do a video, ice baths don't work and they'll get a 100,000 clicks because and they'll get a 100,000 clicks because they're still doing the ice baths after they're still doing the ice baths after the exercise. When you reverse the the exercise. When you reverse the order, readers all over the world are order, readers all over the world are sending me their labs and they're sending me their labs and they're getting this huge boost in testosterone, getting this huge boost in testosterone, huge boost in mood, huge boost in energy huge boost in mood, huge boost in energy because they're precooling instead of because they're precooling instead of cooling afterwards. cooling afterwards. I didn't I haven't I've heard about I didn't I haven't I've heard about this, but I have not witnessed this this, but I have not witnessed this phenomena of people online saying ice phenomena of people online saying ice baths don't work. baths don't work. >> Um, >> Um, >> is the main reason they're saying it >> is the main reason they're saying it because it crushes testosterone and because it crushes testosterone and muscle hypertrophy?

muscle hypertrophy? >> You are on the right track. Uh there's a >> You are on the right track. Uh there's a lot online now that is bashing ice lot online now that is bashing ice baths. We went for two years where Joe baths. We went for two years where Joe Rogan was saying, "Oh, Morasco is the Rogan was saying, "Oh, Morasco is the best thing ever. You know, I get so much best thing ever. You know, I get so much out of it." And he's right. out of it." And he's right. >> But the pendulum has swung. There are >> But the pendulum has swung. There are some people who never want to get into some people who never want to get into an ice bath. And so, especially when an ice bath. And so, especially when Stacy Sims went on the Hubman podcast, Stacy Sims went on the Hubman podcast, she went on Steven Bartlett's podcast, she went on Steven Bartlett's podcast, then she went on Mel Robbins podcast. then she went on Mel Robbins podcast. Now Mel Robbins has Morasco. She's a Now Mel Robbins has Morasco. She's a customer. She loves it. She's posted customer. She loves it. She's posted about it. But when Stacy Sims with her about it. But when Stacy Sims with her PhD went on Mel's podcast and said, PhD went on Mel's podcast and said, "Well, you know, I don't really like ice "Well, you know, I don't really like ice baths for women." Mel was like, "Thank baths for women." Mel was like, "Thank you for telling me that. I feel like you for telling me that. I feel like people have been pushing the ice baths people have been pushing the ice baths maybe too hard." So, there's this social maybe too hard." So, there's this social media backlash against ice baths now. media backlash against ice baths now. But look at the comments under the But look at the comments under the clips. And the clips have all clips. And the clips have all exaggerated Stacy Sims position. She's exaggerated Stacy Sims position. She's like, "Ice has a role." She even talks like, "Ice has a role." She even talks about how ice baths will help women

about how ice baths will help women overcome endometriosis. Like there's a overcome endometriosis. Like there's a lot of benefits for women with ice baths lot of benefits for women with ice baths that Sims acknowledges. She's just that Sims acknowledges. She's just saying the women should start a little saying the women should start a little warmer and it's fine. Start wherever warmer and it's fine. Start wherever you're ready. When you look at the you're ready. When you look at the comments under the headlines on comments under the headlines on Instagram or Twitter, they run about Instagram or Twitter, they run about 50/50. Half of the comments are saying, 50/50. Half of the comments are saying, "I don't understand how ice baths could "I don't understand how ice baths could be bad for women. You know, ice baths be bad for women. You know, ice baths saved my life. Ice baths like rescued me saved my life. Ice baths like rescued me from depression. Ice baths help me lose from depression. Ice baths help me lose 20 pounds. You know, ice baths have g me 20 pounds. You know, ice baths have g me so much energy. I started doing ice so much energy. I started doing ice baths and then I conceived a child. How baths and then I conceived a child. How could they possibly be bad for me? Then could they possibly be bad for me? Then the other half of the comments are like the other half of the comments are like this. I knew it. That's why I'll never this. I knew it. That's why I'll never do an ice bath. And you know, and I'm do an ice bath. And you know, and I'm I'm glad I've never done one ever in my I'm glad I've never done one ever in my life. There are people who don't want to life. There are people who don't want to do the really tough things and they want do the really tough things and they want to hear from social media that science to hear from social media that science or whatever is telling them, "Ah, they or whatever is telling them, "Ah, they don't have to do that. There's some don't have to do that. There's some other reason that they're unhappy or other reason that they're unhappy or they're lethargic or they have some

they're lethargic or they have some thyroid disorder or something else." And thyroid disorder or something else." And I don't buy into that. I don't buy into that. >> If a cucumber facial in a day at the spa >> If a cucumber facial in a day at the spa was going to cure cancer, I would be was going to cure cancer, I would be writing articles about that. It just writing articles about that. It just doesn't work that way, doesn't work that way, >> right? >> right? Now, um, you said that this stuff when Now, um, you said that this stuff when you when you specifically do workouts you when you specifically do workouts after you do like a cold plunge or do a after you do like a cold plunge or do a cold bath, uh, it it boosts LH and cold bath, uh, it it boosts LH and follicle and FSH and, uh, increases follicle and FSH and, uh, increases overall testosterone like dramatically overall testosterone like dramatically no matter how old you are. no matter how old you are. >> I have not measured the FSH and the LH >> I have not measured the FSH and the LH and the FSH have two different roles. If and the FSH have two different roles. If I'm remembering this correctly, the LH I'm remembering this correctly, the LH will stimulate testosterone production will stimulate testosterone production in the gonads, whereas the FSH is more in the gonads, whereas the FSH is more responsible for sperm production. And responsible for sperm production. And those things are related, but they're those things are related, but they're also a little bit different. also a little bit different. >> And I haven't tested FSH. I haven't >> And I haven't tested FSH. I haven't examined sperm production. Um, for me, examined sperm production. Um, for me, it was really an accidental discovery. I

it was really an accidental discovery. I had a blood test come back with an had a blood test come back with an elevated PSA. So, I'm 59, but at this elevated PSA. So, I'm 59, but at this time, I was 52. And a lot of guys will time, I was 52. And a lot of guys will get their blood test, find that their get their blood test, find that their PSA is elevated, and then there's a PSA is elevated, and then there's a whole sequence of things that happens. whole sequence of things that happens. First thing that happens is you go First thing that happens is you go online and you say, "What the hell is a online and you say, "What the hell is a PSA?" You know, and why is mine seven or PSA?" You know, and why is mine seven or whatever? Takes about 20 minutes online whatever? Takes about 20 minutes online and WebMD is going to convince you that and WebMD is going to convince you that you're going to die of cancer. Like, you're going to die of cancer. Like, this is what happened to me because I'm this is what happened to me because I'm prone to these catastrophic thoughts. prone to these catastrophic thoughts. Then you're supposed to go to urologist Then you're supposed to go to urologist who will tell you your prostate is who will tell you your prostate is inflamed. then recommend a biopsy. In a inflamed. then recommend a biopsy. In a biopsy, they will remove like 16 tissue biopsy, they will remove like 16 tissue samples out of your prostate. I'm not samples out of your prostate. I'm not recommending this. I'm not a medical recommending this. I'm not a medical doctor. I'm a PhD. And those are two doctor. I'm a PhD. And those are two different degrees. But it sounds like an different degrees. But it sounds like an awful experience. And the men that I've awful experience. And the men that I've talked to who have been through it told talked to who have been through it told me horror stories about how painful it me horror stories about how painful it was and the false positives that can was and the false positives that can result. result. >> So then they examine these tissue >> So then they examine these tissue samples and they say, "Well, is it

samples and they say, "Well, is it cancer?" The false positive rate is very cancer?" The false positive rate is very high. And so you might have nine come high. And so you might have nine come back cancerous and maybe the rest no back cancerous and maybe the rest no cancer. And you say, "Well, I don't cancer. And you say, "Well, I don't know." And then your urologist will say, know." And then your urologist will say, "As a precautionary measure, we should "As a precautionary measure, we should remove your prostate because it it could remove your prostate because it it could be cancer." After you have your prostate be cancer." After you have your prostate removed, you will be incontinent almost removed, you will be incontinent almost certainly at least for some time, and certainly at least for some time, and you'll never get an erection again. So you'll never get an erection again. So this is what happens in my head at the this is what happens in my head at the age of 52 when I have a lab test showing age of 52 when I have a lab test showing my PSA is too high. I'm headed for these my PSA is too high. I'm headed for these painful surgical procedures and a painful surgical procedures and a lifetime of erectile dysfunction. And I lifetime of erectile dysfunction. And I wasn't signing up for that. I was wasn't signing up for that. I was recently separated from my wife. And I recently separated from my wife. And I was thinking, what woman is ever going was thinking, what woman is ever going to love me? How am I ever going to have to love me? How am I ever going to have like a romantic life again if I go like a romantic life again if I go through with this prostate ectomy and I through with this prostate ectomy and I can't ever get it up? So, I said, I'm can't ever get it up? So, I said, I'm going to find some other way to do it. going to find some other way to do it. I'm going to use ketogenic diet and ice I'm going to use ketogenic diet and ice baths because both of those are good for baths because both of those are good for inflammation. And I got into at that

inflammation. And I got into at that time it was a chest freezer that I got time it was a chest freezer that I got you know from Kenmore and it was this you know from Kenmore and it was this big ugly dirty thing but every day I got big ugly dirty thing but every day I got into that because I was afraid I was into that because I was afraid I was going to die. going to die. >> Took me four months later and in the >> Took me four months later and in the interim we had invented Morasco you know interim we had invented Morasco you know so there's a cleaner solution that makes so there's a cleaner solution that makes its own ice. I go back in to get my labs its own ice. I go back in to get my labs because I finally got the courage to because I finally got the courage to check again and my PSA had dropped from check again and my PSA had dropped from seven down to 1.8 1.8 8. No elevated seven down to 1.8 1.8 8. No elevated risk of prostate cancer. So, I'm like, risk of prostate cancer. So, I'm like, I've done it. I waited a few more weeks. I've done it. I waited a few more weeks. I got another blood test. I got the I got another blood test. I got the whole male panel this time. 1.1 on the whole male panel this time. 1.1 on the PSA. So, I'm in the clear. Now, I'm PSA. So, I'm in the clear. Now, I'm going to go to a urologist. I think I'm going to go to a urologist. I think I'm going to get a big pat on the back. He's going to get a big pat on the back. He's going to be like, "This is a miracle. going to be like, "This is a miracle. You know, I should How did you do this? You know, I should How did you do this? I need to know." He wasn't interested in I need to know." He wasn't interested in my PSA. He didn't care. He's like, my PSA. He didn't care. He's like, "Yeah, that's fine. What I'm really "Yeah, that's fine. What I'm really worried about is your testosterone worried about is your testosterone reading because my testosterone was 1180

reading because my testosterone was 1180 nanogs per deciliter. And the lab report nanogs per deciliter. And the lab report flagged it. They put it in red. They flagged it. They put it in red. They said it's too high. It's out of range. said it's too high. It's out of range. My urologist was about my age. And he's My urologist was about my age. And he's looking at me and he's like, there's no looking at me and he's like, there's no way. He's like, I just want one more way. He's like, I just want one more test. He thinks test. He thinks >> you're on the roids. >> you're on the roids. >> Exactly. Right. He goes, there's no way. >> Exactly. Right. He goes, there's no way. And at that time, most medical doctors And at that time, most medical doctors still believed that increased still believed that increased testosterone levels would increase the testosterone levels would increase the risk of prostate cancer. I even had a risk of prostate cancer. I even had a friend who had a prostatectomy and he friend who had a prostatectomy and he was on testosterone suppressing drugs was on testosterone suppressing drugs because his urologist was saying, "We because his urologist was saying, "We really need to kick the crap out of this really need to kick the crap out of this prostate cancer. We're going to suppress prostate cancer. We're going to suppress your testosterone." Testosterone is your testosterone." Testosterone is anabolic. It promotes the growth of anabolic. It promotes the growth of cells. And according to this theory, we cells. And according to this theory, we should get your testosterone down until should get your testosterone down until we're sure you're in the clear. Right? we're sure you're in the clear. Right? >> My friend gained like 30 pounds, of >> My friend gained like 30 pounds, of course, because he was he was feminized. course, because he was he was feminized. He was chemically castrated essentially. He was chemically castrated essentially. He felt miserable. He had no energy, but

He felt miserable. He had no energy, but it's what his doctor told him to do. So, it's what his doctor told him to do. So, at that time, I'm at the urologist at that time, I'm at the urologist office and he's like, "This guy, this office and he's like, "This guy, this college professor, he's on the sauce. I college professor, he's on the sauce. I want to get his luteinizing hormone want to get his luteinizing hormone checked." I didn't know what luteinizing checked." I didn't know what luteinizing hormone was. I got to go back to the hormone was. I got to go back to the lab. I got to go back to Google. I got lab. I got to go back to Google. I got to get another test. Comes back 8.9. I to get another test. Comes back 8.9. I am off the charts too high. I'm in like am off the charts too high. I'm in like over sex 19year-old territory with these over sex 19year-old territory with these sex hormones. So I send the report to my sex hormones. So I send the report to my urologist. I never heard from him again. urologist. I never heard from him again. Like he doesn't care about my PSA. He Like he doesn't care about my PSA. He doesn't care about my testosterone. This doesn't care about my testosterone. This is how little I know about, you know, is how little I know about, you know, practicing medicine. What is he going to practicing medicine. What is he going to do? Change the way that he treats his do? Change the way that he treats his patients? It makes no sense. Is some guy patients? It makes no sense. Is some guy going to show up with an elevated PSA going to show up with an elevated PSA and now this urologist in Scottsdale, and now this urologist in Scottsdale, Arizona is going to say, "Hang on a Arizona is going to say, "Hang on a second. You know, before I do any second. You know, before I do any surgery with you, you should try the ice surgery with you, you should try the ice bath protocol cuz that worked for a bath protocol cuz that worked for a patient that patient that >> I'll put him out of business. It doesn't >> I'll put him out of business. It doesn't make any sense." make any sense." >> So instead, I wrote an article, you >> So instead, I wrote an article, you know, like this is what happened to my

know, like this is what happened to my testosterone when I was doing ice baths testosterone when I was doing ice baths to treat my prostate. Danny, nobody to treat my prostate. Danny, nobody reads my articles. Like I put it up on reads my articles. Like I put it up on moroscoforge.com. moroscoforge.com. Nobody cared. But then I'm going to Nobody cared. But then I'm going to Iceland. I was going with a girlfriend I Iceland. I was going with a girlfriend I had at the time in December. It's going had at the time in December. It's going to be dark. We're going to see the to be dark. We're going to see the northern lights. So we're on this plane. northern lights. So we're on this plane. I land in Rechevc and I got to find this I land in Rechevc and I got to find this rental car under like 3 ft of snow. I rental car under like 3 ft of snow. I have no, you know, the worst part of the have no, you know, the worst part of the rental car is always trying to find the rental car is always trying to find the car and I have to brush off all this and car and I have to brush off all this and my phone now that it's back on it's my phone now that it's back on it's going going all these signals. I get into the car all these signals. I get into the car and I open up my phone in the cold and and I open up my phone in the cold and all these people are saying, "I saw you all these people are saying, "I saw you on the Joe Rogan show." I'm like, "No, on the Joe Rogan show." I'm like, "No, no, no, no. I think I would know if I no, no, no. I think I would know if I was on Joe Rogan's podcast." Yeah. was on Joe Rogan's podcast." Yeah. >> He read my article. He put my picture up >> He read my article. He put my picture up there and he said to David Gogggins, there and he said to David Gogggins, "I've been doing something different." "I've been doing something different." This was December 2022. I have been This was December 2022. I have been doing the ice bath before I do the

doing the ice bath before I do the exercise. I've been doing this three exercise. I've been doing this three days. And Gogggins is like, "Well, how's days. And Gogggins is like, "Well, how's that working?" And Joe's like, "It's that working?" And Joe's like, "It's hard, but it's working." Now, guys all hard, but it's working." Now, guys all over, they pause the video and they zoom over, they pause the video and they zoom in and they found my picture and they in and they found my picture and they found my article. They're reading the found my article. They're reading the stuff. They're trying this protocol and stuff. They're trying this protocol and they send me their labs from all over they send me their labs from all over the world. the world. So, I think Joe is going cold and short So, I think Joe is going cold and short for the psychological for the psychological >> What do you mean short? How long is >> What do you mean short? How long is that? that? >> Two to four minutes. Okay. >> Two to four minutes. Okay. >> 20 minutes. >> 20 minutes. Joe did a 20-minute ice bath and it was Joe did a 20-minute ice bath and it was probably the most boring 20 minutes that probably the most boring 20 minutes that Joe Rogan has ever posted to Instagram Joe Rogan has ever posted to Instagram because it's just him. because it's just him. >> He filmed the whole thing. >> He filmed the whole thing. >> He filmed the whole thing. Well, he had >> He filmed the whole thing. Well, he had to because the way I understand it, Jaco to because the way I understand it, Jaco saw saw >> at what temp >> at what temp >> that was 32 degrees. They're 32 and a >> that was 32 degrees. They're 32 and a half. You know, that's the freezing half. You know, that's the freezing point of water. He did his first ice point of water. He did his first ice bath ever. It was in a Morasco and I bath ever. It was in a Morasco and I guess according to him Joo called him up guess according to him Joo called him up and shamed him a little bit and saying

and shamed him a little bit and saying minute and a half. What are you doing minute and a half. What are you doing man? My teenage son does 20 minutes. So man? My teenage son does 20 minutes. So Joe had to set up his camera and prove Joe had to set up his camera and prove to the world that he was tough enough to to the world that he was tough enough to do 20 minutes. This is not the way to do do 20 minutes. This is not the way to do it. Like we all know you're tough, but it. Like we all know you're tough, but if you're going to make it 20 minutes, if you're going to make it 20 minutes, I've never seen you know a bodybuilder I've never seen you know a bodybuilder or a football player really tough it or a football player really tough it out. The only way to do it is to out. The only way to do it is to surrender and be like, "That's it. I'm surrender and be like, "That's it. I'm going to die right here. I'm at peace going to die right here. I'm at peace with the world. It's okay." I I don't with the world. It's okay." I I don't know really what Joe's meditation was know really what Joe's meditation was like to get through that 20. like to get through that 20. >> But there was one of the kids who saw >> But there was one of the kids who saw him and um she has cerebral palsy. She him and um she has cerebral palsy. She was 13. She did her first ice bath when was 13. She did her first ice bath when she was nine, she was nine, >> and it felt really good on her legs >> and it felt really good on her legs because she doesn't have the same because she doesn't have the same sensations that you and I were having. sensations that you and I were having. Her mother let her do the ice bath Her mother let her do the ice bath because she was reporting how good this because she was reporting how good this felt on her feet. She saw that Joe Rogan felt on her feet. She saw that Joe Rogan did the 20 and she said, "Mom, I want to

did the 20 and she said, "Mom, I want to beat him." So, you know, she got into my beat him." So, you know, she got into my ice bath and her mom was texting me and ice bath and her mom was texting me and she's like, "Is this okay?" And I'm she's like, "Is this okay?" And I'm like, "It's fine." You know, I don't like, "It's fine." You know, I don't recommend 20 minutes, but it's not recommend 20 minutes, but it's not harmful. you'd have to go for like an harmful. you'd have to go for like an hour for hypothermia to really set in. hour for hypothermia to really set in. >> She goes, "Well, it's been 20 minutes. >> She goes, "Well, it's been 20 minutes. She just beat Joe. Should I get her She just beat Joe. Should I get her out?" And I'm like, you know, kids know. out?" And I'm like, you know, kids know. Kids know when to get out. Kids know when to get out. >> Turns out this child super competitive. >> Turns out this child super competitive. Like even though she knows that she has, Like even though she knows that she has, you know, she's one of the special needs you know, she's one of the special needs kids at school. She doesn't want anybody kids at school. She doesn't want anybody to notice. Like she has overcome. The to notice. Like she has overcome. The doctor said she might never walk. No, doctor said she might never walk. No, she's running around because she has a she's running around because she has a very strong will. 25 minutes. She looks very strong will. 25 minutes. She looks okay, but I don't know. I'm really okay, but I don't know. I'm really worried. She's fine. She'll know when to worried. She's fine. She'll know when to come out. 28 minutes. I feel like maybe come out. 28 minutes. I feel like maybe I should take her out. I'm like, I don't I should take her out. I'm like, I don't know. I don't want to be the one to know. I don't want to be the one to You're the mom. You know, she's the kid. You're the mom. You know, she's the kid. I'm not there. 30 minutes. Get her the I'm not there. 30 minutes. Get her the hell out of there. Like, what is she hell out of there. Like, what is she thinking? You know, she could barely

thinking? You know, she could barely walk. Because one of the things that walk. Because one of the things that will happen if you stay in too long, you will happen if you stay in too long, you lose dexterity. You lose motor control. lose dexterity. You lose motor control. Now, that's not dangerous. You just Now, that's not dangerous. You just shouldn't be driving a car or a forklift shouldn't be driving a car or a forklift or anything, you know. Now, you need or anything, you know. Now, you need rewarming. Well, fortunately, I live in rewarming. Well, fortunately, I live in Phoenix, Arizona. So, I have overdone it Phoenix, Arizona. So, I have overdone it a couple of times. If I'm trying to a couple of times. If I'm trying to impress a girl or if I'm shooting an impress a girl or if I'm shooting an Instagram video or something like that, Instagram video or something like that, I've done as much as 22 minutes and then I've done as much as 22 minutes and then I have no, you know, my brain fog sets I have no, you know, my brain fog sets in. I have no motor control. I can't. in. I have no motor control. I can't. The answer is rewarming. If you find The answer is rewarming. If you find yourself in a situation where you've yourself in a situation where you've overdosed the cold, get some red light, overdosed the cold, get some red light, get a sauna, uh wrap yourself up in a get a sauna, uh wrap yourself up in a blanket, rewarm. In her case, I said, blanket, rewarm. In her case, I said, "Put her in the car." In Phoenix, "Put her in the car." In Phoenix, Arizona, you park a car in the sun in Arizona, you park a car in the sun in the parking lot. It's going to be up to the parking lot. It's going to be up to 180° before you know it, right? Just do 180° before you know it, right? Just do a car sauna. You can crank up the heat. a car sauna. You can crank up the heat. You can go for a little drive if you You can go for a little drive if you want. She rewarmed. Good rule of thumb

want. She rewarmed. Good rule of thumb is two minutes of rewarming for every is two minutes of rewarming for every minute that you were in there. So that minute that you were in there. So that would be an hour and that's fine. And would be an hour and that's fine. And now she has an experience she can tell now she has an experience she can tell her schoolmates about how you know she her schoolmates about how you know she beat Joe Rogan. I hope she never does beat Joe Rogan. I hope she never does that again. that again. >> Good lord. >> Good lord. >> Right. >> Right. >> That's crazy. >> That's crazy. >> So when I say cold and short, two to >> So when I say cold and short, two to four minutes. I mean that's all I'm in four minutes. I mean that's all I'm in there like two, three minutes a day. there like two, three minutes a day. Sometimes I'll do twice a day, Sometimes I'll do twice a day, >> but I don't. Every once in a while, I'll >> but I don't. Every once in a while, I'll be shooting a video and people on be shooting a video and people on Instagram will say, "How does he do Instagram will say, "How does he do that?" You know, I I can barely put two that?" You know, I I can barely put two words together. And the fact is, I'm not words together. And the fact is, I'm not that great at it. Sometimes I need like that great at it. Sometimes I need like three takes. You're not seeing when I three takes. You're not seeing when I screwed up. Yeah. screwed up. Yeah. >> And I'll be in there for eight or nine >> And I'll be in there for eight or nine minutes so we can get the take right. minutes so we can get the take right. Then I'll have to go out in the parking Then I'll have to go out in the parking lot with the kettle bells. I'll have to lot with the kettle bells. I'll have to get some exercise. I'll have to rewarm. get some exercise. I'll have to rewarm. It'll take me a half an hour. There's no It'll take me a half an hour. There's no long-term ill effects, but one of the

long-term ill effects, but one of the safety protocols that we publish at safety protocols that we publish at Morasco is give yourself time to rewarm Morasco is give yourself time to rewarm before you do anything that requires before you do anything that requires dexterity. dexterity. >> So, when did this stuff become popular? >> So, when did this stuff become popular? Like when did it hit the mainstream? Like when did it hit the mainstream? Because Because >> I want to say the first time I ever >> I want to say the first time I ever heard about um doing this was maybe like 10, 2009. you were years ahead of me. >> But like it wasn't on podcasts. I would >> But like it wasn't on podcasts. I would see it like, you know, in sports see it like, you know, in sports documentaries, documentaries, >> things like this. >> things like this. >> And I had never even thought about, you >> And I had never even thought about, you know, trying to do it for my own know, trying to do it for my own benefit. Obviously, benefit. Obviously, >> you're not the quarterback for the >> you're not the quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers. Why would you be Pittsburgh Steelers. Why would you be doing it? doing it? >> Right. And then, you know, eventually, >> Right. And then, you know, eventually, you know, sometimes you see like you know, sometimes you see like Instagram videos of NFL players like in Instagram videos of NFL players like in the locker room going in the cold the the locker room going in the cold the cold water after a game or something cold water after a game or something like that. The hockey guys are the most like that. The hockey guys are the most ridiculous. They'll like jump right in ridiculous. They'll like jump right in there in their uniform and stuff, but

there in their uniform and stuff, but they're all Canadian, so I suppose they're all Canadian, so I suppose they're used to the cold. they're used to the cold. >> Yes. Well, we have some of the best >> Yes. Well, we have some of the best hockey teams in Florida, too. hockey teams in Florida, too. >> I know. I know. >> I know. I know. >> Ironically. >> Ironically. >> Um, but so like what at what year and >> Um, but so like what at what year and why did it really start to take off in why did it really start to take off in like the mainstream? So I think Vim like the mainstream? So I think Vim Hoff, you know, swimming under the ice Hoff, you know, swimming under the ice and running marathons through Finland and running marathons through Finland and stuff, he did a lot to popularize and stuff, he did a lot to popularize it. And then Scott Carney wrote a book it. And then Scott Carney wrote a book called What Doesn't Kill Us? And it was called What Doesn't Kill Us? And it was the first real popular journalistic the first real popular journalistic account of what Vim Hoff was doing. account of what Vim Hoff was doing. Scott prides himself on debunking Scott prides himself on debunking grifters and charlatans. And so Scott grifters and charlatans. And so Scott went to Poland with Vim Hoff and he's went to Poland with Vim Hoff and he's like, you know, I'm going to tell the like, you know, I'm going to tell the whole world what a criminal this guy is. whole world what a criminal this guy is. You know, Scott goes through the whole You know, Scott goes through the whole program. He winds up climbing Mount program. He winds up climbing Mount Kilimanjaro shirtless and in shorts and Kilimanjaro shirtless and in shorts and they don't have to stop for elevation they don't have to stop for elevation sickness or anything like this. sickness or anything like this. >> So Scott and Vim become friends and

>> So Scott and Vim become friends and Scott becomes a true believer. He's Scott becomes a true believer. He's like, "What Vimhof is doing is medically like, "What Vimhof is doing is medically verified. He's been in the labs in the verified. He's been in the labs in the Netherlands. They've drawn his blood and Netherlands. They've drawn his blood and they've measured all his like body. He's they've measured all his like body. He's got a twin brother. He's been compared got a twin brother. He's been compared to his twin brother. So, we're talking to his twin brother. So, we're talking genetically identical and they're things genetically identical and they're things Vimhof can do that his twin brother Vimhof can do that his twin brother can't do. can't do. >> That's trash. >> That's trash. >> Great. The book becomes a bestseller and >> Great. The book becomes a bestseller and I think that put Vim on a lot of uh sort I think that put Vim on a lot of uh sort of the podcast sort of circuit. of the podcast sort of circuit. >> Huberman starts his podcast and he grows >> Huberman starts his podcast and he grows explosively. He's a big fan of Cold explosively. He's a big fan of Cold Plunge. So, I don't think it was like Plunge. So, I don't think it was like one moment unless it was Joe Rogan's one moment unless it was Joe Rogan's first post or he'd had Michaela first post or he'd had Michaela Peterson, he'd had Kevin Hart, he'd had Peterson, he'd had Kevin Hart, he'd had Vim Hoff, he'd had Ben Greenfield on his Vim Hoff, he'd had Ben Greenfield on his podcast and he's asking all these podcast and he's asking all these people, you know, I've been hearing people, you know, I've been hearing about this cold. He told Vim, I've been about this cold. He told Vim, I've been dodging the cold my whole life. I don't dodging the cold my whole life. I don't want to get in there. want to get in there. >> But we heard through Brigham Beller, uh,

>> But we heard through Brigham Beller, uh, who's a customer. He runs way is who's a customer. He runs way is fantastic. the world needs more people fantastic. the world needs more people like Bringham as far as I'm concerned. like Bringham as far as I'm concerned. And he heard um or we heard that Joe was And he heard um or we heard that Joe was probably ready for an ice bath. He probably ready for an ice bath. He wanted to give this a shot. So I called wanted to give this a shot. So I called Brum up and I said, "Look, if Joe's Brum up and I said, "Look, if Joe's going to do it, I want him to do it in a going to do it, I want him to do it in a moras coat. Bring him up's like, "All moras coat. Bring him up's like, "All right, maybe we can set this up." We right, maybe we can set this up." We sent Joe one. It's in his backyard and sent Joe one. It's in his backyard and he said, "All right, this is the day." he said, "All right, this is the day." He live streams it on Instagram. He gets He live streams it on Instagram. He gets in and he's like, "Dang, there's a lot in and he's like, "Dang, there's a lot of ice in this ice bath." you know, he of ice in this ice bath." you know, he has this sort of epiphany experience has this sort of epiphany experience >> and everything changed in like the whole >> and everything changed in like the whole industry. There were maybe three one ice industry. There were maybe three one ice bath company and two cold plunge bath company and two cold plunge companies in the United States at the companies in the United States at the time. Now, you can't like Google cold time. Now, you can't like Google cold for anything without getting ads from 36 for anything without getting ads from 36 different Chinese-made cold plunge different Chinese-made cold plunge companies inundating this market. It is companies inundating this market. It is full of deceptive marketing practices

full of deceptive marketing practices and charlatans who all wanted to kind of and charlatans who all wanted to kind of climb onto the social media trend that climb onto the social media trend that Rogan and Huberman were really pushing. Rogan and Huberman were really pushing. Even Carney has flipped now. He's a Even Carney has flipped now. He's a terrible critic of Vimhof. He's gone terrible critic of Vimhof. He's gone after Huberman. He's gone after Sobberg. after Huberman. He's gone after Sobberg. He's gone after a lot of people who are He's gone after a lot of people who are talking about the health benefits which talking about the health benefits which he wrote books about and is saying, he wrote books about and is saying, "Well, nope, that's not good science. "Well, nope, that's not good science. Uh, that's all exaggerated." And there's Uh, that's all exaggerated." And there's a lot more. This is the guy I think I a lot more. This is the guy I think I it's clicking for me now. This is the it's clicking for me now. This is the guy who basically he has the YouTube guy who basically he has the YouTube channel and he basically like exposes channel and he basically like exposes stuff or like stuff or like >> he loves that. Okay. >> he loves that. Okay. >> Yeah. It's his thing. And um I mean I >> Yeah. It's his thing. And um I mean I don't want to say he's bad at it. He's don't want to say he's bad at it. He's got a number of books. got a number of books. >> Uh but he's getting more clicks on >> Uh but he's getting more clicks on YouTube now for bashing cold plunge, YouTube now for bashing cold plunge, bashing brown fat, bashing the bashing brown fat, bashing the scientists than he was when he was scientists than he was when he was promoting it. Now, if you're a promoting it. Now, if you're a journalist, you got to live on book journalist, you got to live on book sales and clicks, as you know. And so, sales and clicks, as you know. And so, he's doing what's popular, and he's left

he's doing what's popular, and he's left the science behind because the audience the science behind because the audience doesn't really want to hear it. There's doesn't really want to hear it. There's even Joe and Andrew Huberman won't talk even Joe and Andrew Huberman won't talk so much about cold plunge anymore. so much about cold plunge anymore. However, I wrote the freaking book. I've However, I wrote the freaking book. I've got 600 scientific citations in that got 600 scientific citations in that uncommon cold book. So, if you're uncommon cold book. So, if you're curious about how to use ice baths, curious about how to use ice baths, about the mechanisms by which ice baths about the mechanisms by which ice baths or cold plunge therapy are going to or cold plunge therapy are going to benefit your health, now you don't have benefit your health, now you don't have to follow Instagram accounts or to follow Instagram accounts or something. You can read it for yourself. something. You can read it for yourself. >> That Susanna Soberg study um they were >> That Susanna Soberg study um they were that was involving sauna and cold, that was involving sauna and cold, right? They were they were combining the right? They were they were combining the both and they and the the outcome of it both and they and the the outcome of it was they recommended like an 11 minutes was they recommended like an 11 minutes per week or something like this. per week or something like this. >> Yeah. And um it it was it was able to >> Yeah. And um it it was it was able to boost metabolism. boost metabolism. There's a lot of um oversimplification There's a lot of um oversimplification what she did for her dissertation and what she did for her dissertation and she's published in Cell and other she's published in Cell and other journals. It's very good. Um but it's

journals. It's very good. Um but it's also damn hard to make a living with as also damn hard to make a living with as a PhD faculty member in the European a PhD faculty member in the European Union. The jobs are just not plentiful. Union. The jobs are just not plentiful. Typically you have to do a long Typically you have to do a long posttock, wait for somebody to die, then posttock, wait for somebody to die, then a faculty job will open up and the a faculty job will open up and the funding sources aren't quite as good as funding sources aren't quite as good as they are in the United States. The they are in the United States. The university system isn't growing. Uh it's university system isn't growing. Uh it's a bleak career to slog it out as a a bleak career to slog it out as a faculty member in the EU. So what she faculty member in the EU. So what she has done, as far as I can tell, uh is has done, as far as I can tell, uh is make a career for herself as what she make a career for herself as what she calls a thermalist. So advising people calls a thermalist. So advising people on how to use thermal contrast therapy on how to use thermal contrast therapy to improve the quality of their lives. to improve the quality of their lives. and she probably has a lot of case and she probably has a lot of case studies. studies. >> I don't know for a fact. >> I don't know for a fact. >> She blocked me years ago on Twitter >> She blocked me years ago on Twitter because of something about I'm not because of something about I'm not kidding you, Danny. Um, you can look kidding you, Danny. Um, you can look this up. Something some disagreement this up. Something some disagreement that we had about cortisol. She goes, I that we had about cortisol. She goes, I measure cortisol and then she blocked measure cortisol and then she blocked me. So, I'm not counting on her to read me. So, I'm not counting on her to read the book or anything, but I see that her

the book or anything, but I see that her work in Cell is quite good, but it's work in Cell is quite good, but it's also been oversimplified and exaggerated also been oversimplified and exaggerated because that's what you need to do if because that's what you need to do if you're going to make a living through you're going to make a living through social media or coaching people. I don't social media or coaching people. I don't think that there's you really have a think that there's you really have a choice in the matter. And I'm not choice in the matter. And I'm not calling it dumb it down. I mean simplify calling it dumb it down. I mean simplify it and exaggerate it. So, let's talk it and exaggerate it. So, let's talk about that study in cell. about that study in cell. >> Her dissertation is essentially in using >> Her dissertation is essentially in using PET scanning to identify brown fat. PET scanning to identify brown fat. Okay, you go back 15, 20 years, medical Okay, you go back 15, 20 years, medical doctors were convinced there was no such doctors were convinced there was no such thing as brown fat in the adult human thing as brown fat in the adult human body. Infants have it, but they thought body. Infants have it, but they thought that human beings all grow out of it. that human beings all grow out of it. And I said earlier, you know, 95% of the And I said earlier, you know, 95% of the people tested don't have it. But the people tested don't have it. But the Swedes discovered brown fat in people Swedes discovered brown fat in people who were continuously exposed to cold. who were continuously exposed to cold. These were typically cancer patients These were typically cancer patients that would come in to have their tumor that would come in to have their tumor scanned and they say, "Hey, where's scanned and they say, "Hey, where's this? It's showing up on the scan." It this? It's showing up on the scan." It was brown fat. Now you can do all was brown fat. Now you can do all >> why cancer patients >> why cancer patients >> because the way PET scanning works you

>> because the way PET scanning works you inject a a radioactive form of glucose. inject a a radioactive form of glucose. This travels through the body. Now This travels through the body. Now cancer cells will preferentially cancer cells will preferentially metabolize glucose. So this radioactive metabolize glucose. So this radioactive tracer gets sucked up into the tumor tracer gets sucked up into the tumor cells. They will then bypassing the cells. They will then bypassing the mitochondria use that glucose to produce mitochondria use that glucose to produce ATP and proliferate. So if they want to ATP and proliferate. So if they want to image your tumor, they give you this image your tumor, they give you this radioactive tracer glucose and shows up radioactive tracer glucose and shows up on the posetron emission tomography scan on the posetron emission tomography scan >> because the tumors suck it up. >> because the tumors suck it up. >> You got it right. So that's a >> You got it right. So that's a concentration on glucose. concentration on glucose. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Now here's the thing. These instruments >> Now here's the thing. These instruments are very large. Uh they can run hot. are very large. Uh they can run hot. Sometimes you have to keep the Sometimes you have to keep the instrument room cool just for the instrument room cool just for the instrument. And in some cases, it's cold instrument. And in some cases, it's cold enough for the patient, you know, who's enough for the patient, you know, who's wearing one of those stupid gowns to get wearing one of those stupid gowns to get active brown fat going. And so in a few active brown fat going. And so in a few scans, these Swedish researchers saw scans, these Swedish researchers saw symmetrical depots that would show up

symmetrical depots that would show up and they said, "That must be brown fat." and they said, "That must be brown fat." Nobody believed them until someone at Nobody believed them until someone at the Sloan Ketering Institute in New York the Sloan Ketering Institute in New York said, "I'll show those guys. I've got said, "I'll show those guys. I've got 10,000 PET scans. I'm going to look at 10,000 PET scans. I'm going to look at them at all." them at all." >> Yeah. 95% of them no detectable brown >> Yeah. 95% of them no detectable brown fat but 5% of them showed exactly those fat but 5% of them showed exactly those symmetrical depots and those Swedish symmetrical depots and those Swedish researchers were proven right there is researchers were proven right there is brown fat in adult human beings who brown fat in adult human beings who practice regular cold exposure so by the practice regular cold exposure so by the time Susanna and I don't know her I time Susanna and I don't know her I haven't talked to her but by the time haven't talked to her but by the time that she's in her graduate program you that she's in her graduate program you can do a whole PhD on this thing there's can do a whole PhD on this thing there's been an explosion of brown fat research been an explosion of brown fat research because it's such a fascinating topic because it's such a fascinating topic and so critical for human health. She's and so critical for human health. She's doing PET scans and she says, "I'm going doing PET scans and she says, "I'm going to get these Danish winter swimmers." to get these Danish winter swimmers." So, these are people who like jump in So, these are people who like jump in the fjord and they swim around for fun the fjord and they swim around for fun in Denmark. And she scans them and she in Denmark. And she scans them and she says, "Lo behold, they have active brown

says, "Lo behold, they have active brown fat. I've shown it in, and this is fat. I've shown it in, and this is wonderful." She does a survey and she wonderful." She does a survey and she says, "Okay, um, how often do you go? says, "Okay, um, how often do you go? How long do you stay in there? Do you How long do you stay in there? Do you also sauna?" And blah blah blah. And also sauna?" And blah blah blah. And there's a whole variety of responses as there's a whole variety of responses as you might imagine. So she averages them you might imagine. So she averages them out and she says of the Danish winter out and she says of the Danish winter swimmers surveyed, they do an average of swimmers surveyed, they do an average of 11 minutes a week. Now if you're going 11 minutes a week. Now if you're going to oversimplify and exaggerate this, to oversimplify and exaggerate this, then you'll go on the Huberman podcast, then you'll go on the Huberman podcast, you'll say, "Oh, 11 minutes a week, you'll say, "Oh, 11 minutes a week, that's all you need. That's the the dose that's all you need. That's the the dose that you should have." But we don't know that you should have." But we don't know that. It could be that there's a minimum that. It could be that there's a minimum effective dose that is less than effective dose that is less than Nobody's ever really done like the Nobody's ever really done like the comprehensive study. What we do know is comprehensive study. What we do know is that these people did on average 11 that these people did on average 11 minutes and they all had brown fat. minutes and they all had brown fat. Maybe you could do five. You know, Maybe you could do five. You know, >> a PET scan is not something you want to >> a PET scan is not something you want to sign up for. sign up for. >> And where did Huberman get this? And you >> And where did Huberman get this? And you might have already told I don't remember might have already told I don't remember if you told me this on the podcast or if you told me this on the podcast or before we started, but where did before we started, but where did Huberman get this idea of ending on Huberman get this idea of ending on cold? cold? >> That's a metabolic recommendation.

>> That's a metabolic recommendation. When you're somebody studying brown fat, When you're somebody studying brown fat, you're all about the metabolism. You're you're all about the metabolism. You're saying what would cause the brown fat saying what would cause the brown fat to, you know, suck up glucose or to, you know, suck up glucose or triglycerides or fatty acids from the triglycerides or fatty acids from the bloodstream? How would it be active? bloodstream? How would it be active? What kind of calories are burned in the What kind of calories are burned in the brown fat? What's the effect of brown brown fat? What's the effect of brown fat on the metabolism? If what you're fat on the metabolism? If what you're doing is going to the cold plunge doing is going to the cold plunge because you want to maximize the because you want to maximize the function of your brown fat, finish on function of your brown fat, finish on cold and have your body rewarm itself cold and have your body rewarm itself using its own thermogenic mechanisms. M. using its own thermogenic mechanisms. M. So from the perspective of a brown fat So from the perspective of a brown fat scientist, finishing on cold makes all scientist, finishing on cold makes all kinds of sense. You're going to get the kinds of sense. You're going to get the most brown fat activity. If you go most brown fat activity. If you go straight into the sauna after you do the straight into the sauna after you do the cold, then it's kind of like you're cold, then it's kind of like you're giving your brown fat a break. There giving your brown fat a break. There could be great reasons for it. The ice could be great reasons for it. The ice bath is vaso constriction. So this is bath is vaso constriction. So this is smooth muscle tissue closing off the smooth muscle tissue closing off the blood vessels that supply blood to your blood vessels that supply blood to your extremities. This is to protect your extremities. This is to protect your core body temperature against the cold.

core body temperature against the cold. Your limbs will get cold, but your core Your limbs will get cold, but your core stays warm. stays warm. >> Your organs, your deep, your internal >> Your organs, your deep, your internal organs suck up all the blood to stay organs suck up all the blood to stay alive. alive. >> You got it. It'll go into your head >> You got it. It'll go into your head because usually your head is not, you because usually your head is not, you know, submerged in the ice bath. This is know, submerged in the ice bath. This is good for profusion in the brain. Vasil good for profusion in the brain. Vasil constriction is like a workout for your constriction is like a workout for your smooth muscle tissue. Then you might smooth muscle tissue. Then you might say, and then I want to go into the say, and then I want to go into the sauna. I want to get that vaso dilation sauna. I want to get that vaso dilation when I'm sweating and this will be good when I'm sweating and this will be good for my vascule, which it is. The end on for my vascule, which it is. The end on cold when you're doing thermal contrast cold when you're doing thermal contrast therapy is a metabolic recommendation. therapy is a metabolic recommendation. Maybe metabolism isn't what you're in Maybe metabolism isn't what you're in there for. Maybe you're getting in there there for. Maybe you're getting in there for psychological reasons. Maybe you're for psychological reasons. Maybe you're using the cold not so much to recruit using the cold not so much to recruit brown fat. You're not worried about brown fat. You're not worried about losing weight. Maybe you're doing it for losing weight. Maybe you're doing it for other reasons. And in that case, there's other reasons. And in that case, there's no reason to end on cold. What you and I no reason to end on cold. What you and I did this morning was kind of flip your did this morning was kind of flip your usual routine. We did cold. We did usual routine. We did cold. We did exercise, we did sauna, and then we just exercise, we did sauna, and then we just did like a little micro dose of cold for

did like a little micro dose of cold for the energy boost, right? the energy boost, right? >> I do it for only the energy boost. It's >> I do it for only the energy boost. It's the only reason I do it for the only reason I do it for >> That's cool. Um, and it seems like it's >> That's cool. Um, and it seems like it's working. working. >> So, would that would that hinder the >> So, would that would that hinder the energy boost if you go in the sauna energy boost if you go in the sauna after? after? >> You tell me. Uh, give it a shot and see >> You tell me. Uh, give it a shot and see whether you feel that that dopamine rush whether you feel that that dopamine rush that you get is wearing off. that you get is wearing off. >> Well, I feel great right now. I feel >> Well, I feel great right now. I feel >> today's my first day trying it with with >> today's my first day trying it with with the sauna at the end. the sauna at the end. >> The reason you do it at the end is >> The reason you do it at the end is because there's really good research on because there's really good research on using sauna for recovery from strenuous using sauna for recovery from strenuous exercise. So if you do a hard workout, exercise. So if you do a hard workout, >> you know, Huberman has told us this and >> you know, Huberman has told us this and he's right. he's right. >> Do not do an ice bath after a hard >> Do not do an ice bath after a hard workout. You will blunt the workout. You will blunt the inflammation. You will reduce the inflammation. You will reduce the hypertrophy. If you're going for muscle hypertrophy. If you're going for muscle growth, then wait at least four hours, growth, then wait at least four hours, he says. Right. he says. Right. Well, and that's fine. If you do the Well, and that's fine. If you do the cold before your workout, you will speed cold before your workout, you will speed your recovery, boost your testosterone your recovery, boost your testosterone without um delaying or blunting that

without um delaying or blunting that hypertrophy. And this is a remarkable hypertrophy. And this is a remarkable finding that is partly coming out of finding that is partly coming out of Craig Heler and is substantiated by Craig Heler and is substantiated by other sources. Do your cold first, then other sources. Do your cold first, then do your exercise, and you'll get a do your exercise, and you'll get a testosterone testosterone >> and you can lift way more and you have >> and you can lift way more and you have way more endurance. way more endurance. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Do you ever get headaches when you dip Do you ever get headaches when you dip your head under at like 33 degrees? your head under at like 33 degrees? People report to me that they People report to me that they >> That's happened to me once. I I had a >> That's happened to me once. I I had a headache for like a week. headache for like a week. >> So, there's um two things about >> So, there's um two things about headaches in the cold. headaches in the cold. >> Headaches can be associated with >> Headaches can be associated with metabolic dysfunction. So, somebody metabolic dysfunction. So, somebody getting migraines might start a cold getting migraines might start a cold plunge practice, improve perfusion in plunge practice, improve perfusion in the brain, improve their metabolism, and the brain, improve their metabolism, and find that it helps their headaches. But find that it helps their headaches. But somebody else getting into the cold somebody else getting into the cold might force blood up into the brain, might force blood up into the brain, increase the pressure up there, and make increase the pressure up there, and make their headaches worse. There's a trend their headaches worse. There's a trend of people just dipping their face in the of people just dipping their face in the water cuz you know, somebody says, "Oh, water cuz you know, somebody says, "Oh, you get all the benefits of cold you get all the benefits of cold plunge." And that's a bunch of nonsense. plunge." And that's a bunch of nonsense. You will get the dive reflex, which is

You will get the dive reflex, which is one of the benefits of cold plunge. one of the benefits of cold plunge. Yeah. Yeah. >> But you also might get the headache. I >> But you also might get the headache. I don't recommend ice baths for headaches. don't recommend ice baths for headaches. I have a different recommendation for I have a different recommendation for that. I brought it down. I'm glad you that. I brought it down. I'm glad you asked cuz uh want to show you what's asked cuz uh want to show you what's called the migraine lamp. called the migraine lamp. >> My green. >> My green. >> It's green light therapy for headaches. >> It's green light therapy for headaches. So, I'm going to shine this self So, I'm going to shine this self >> on I'm going to shine this on my eyes >> on I'm going to shine this on my eyes >> cuz you use it like this. >> cuz you use it like this. >> If you're in a therapeutic setting, >> If you're in a therapeutic setting, >> you would set it on like a little cell >> you would set it on like a little cell phone stand. You'd put it in front of phone stand. You'd put it in front of you. You'd close your eyes and you let you. You'd close your eyes and you let the green light come through your closed the green light come through your closed eyelids. Nobody knows why this works, eyelids. Nobody knows why this works, but it works. I was on Mark Bell's but it works. I was on Mark Bell's podcast and his producer Andrew, he's podcast and his producer Andrew, he's had migraines ever since he was a kid. had migraines ever since he was a kid. And so he asked me about it. The And so he asked me about it. The invention was kind of accidental because invention was kind of accidental because I had a girlfriend with migraine

I had a girlfriend with migraine headaches and I was looking at red light headaches and I was looking at red light and UV and phototherapy and I think and UV and phototherapy and I think Google must have known that I was doing Google must have known that I was doing this library search and you know it's this library search and you know it's hey maybe you're going to like this one hey maybe you're going to like this one or something cuz they watch my every or something cuz they watch my every move, you know. That's odd. Yeah. Right. move, you know. That's odd. Yeah. Right. >> Um and it was about green light and >> Um and it was about green light and phototoobia for people who suffer from phototoobia for people who suffer from migraines. When you have a migraine, migraines. When you have a migraine, most migrainers want total darkness most migrainers want total darkness because the light will make their because the light will make their headache worse. headache worse. >> So, they shut themselves in a closet or >> So, they shut themselves in a closet or in a dark bedroom or something. It's in a dark bedroom or something. It's terrible. But at Harvard, they tested terrible. But at Harvard, they tested all the wavelengths of light and they all the wavelengths of light and they found that green had a pain relieving or found that green had a pain relieving or analesic effect. University of Arizona analesic effect. University of Arizona picks this up and they start making picks this up and they start making devices with just green LEDs in them for devices with just green LEDs in them for migrainers to use and they get a s migrainers to use and they get a s significant reduction in the frequency significant reduction in the frequency and severity of migraine headaches among and severity of migraine headaches among those people who used green light those people who used green light phototherapy. the mechanisms remain a phototherapy. the mechanisms remain a mystery. But I'm reading about this and

mystery. But I'm reading about this and I'm like, oh. I go to a friend of mine, I'm like, oh. I go to a friend of mine, you know, this is just a red light box. you know, this is just a red light box. And I say, could you make this, you And I say, could you make this, you know, with green LEDs in it instead? And know, with green LEDs in it instead? And I gave him the wavelengths that I I gave him the wavelengths that I wanted. And sure enough, the prototype wanted. And sure enough, the prototype came from his manufacturer. Wow. came from his manufacturer. Wow. >> And he turned it on and he was like, >> And he turned it on and he was like, >> "This is terrible. You know, it's going >> "This is terrible. You know, it's going to give me a headache." And he calls me to give me a headache." And he calls me up and he says, "Tom, we can't market up and he says, "Tom, we can't market this." I said, "Well, I have to see it. this." I said, "Well, I have to see it. I gotta, you know, maybe I'll figure I gotta, you know, maybe I'll figure something out. Um, I drive out there something out. Um, I drive out there with this woman that I'm dating at the with this woman that I'm dating at the time. She gets headaches all the time time. She gets headaches all the time and I'm turning this on and I'm agreeing and I'm turning this on and I'm agreeing with my buddy and I'm like, "Ah, it's with my buddy and I'm like, "Ah, it's awful." She says, "Let me see that." And awful." She says, "Let me see that." And she takes it out of my hand. She puts it she takes it out of my hand. She puts it right up against her face. She closes right up against her face. She closes her eyes and she says, "This feels her eyes and she says, "This feels really good." really good." So, I'm like, I think we just invented So, I'm like, I think we just invented the world's most powerful green thapy the world's most powerful green thapy device for pain relief. Brian,

device for pain relief. Brian, >> do you have any speculation to why it >> do you have any speculation to why it could help headaches? Can I see it? could help headaches? Can I see it? >> I'm going to get there. Yeah. Um, I sent >> I'm going to get there. Yeah. Um, I sent one to Andrew from Mark Bell's podcast one to Andrew from Mark Bell's podcast just to try it out. He said it works just to try it out. He said it works great. Reduces his need for medication. great. Reduces his need for medication. He tried it with his wife and his wife He tried it with his wife and his wife is not the same kind of chronic migriner is not the same kind of chronic migriner that he is. Sorry, I hit the wrong that he is. Sorry, I hit the wrong button on you. button on you. >> How do I turn it on? Uh there's a power >> How do I turn it on? Uh there's a power button and then there's controls for all button and then there's controls for all the different wavelengths that go with the different wavelengths that go with it and a timer. And I I might have um it and a timer. And I I might have um >> Did we break it? >> Did we break it? >> Yeah, probably. Uh I put it on like no I >> Yeah, probably. Uh I put it on like no I put it on the the zero dimness setting. put it on the the zero dimness setting. So now you're back up to max. So now you're back up to max. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Andrew says it's fantastic. Um >> Yeah. Andrew says it's fantastic. Um other people tell me the same thing. other people tell me the same thing. >> Is it okay to look at it or no? There's >> Is it okay to look at it or no? There's no harms that I've noticed from looking no harms that I've noticed from looking at it. Um, but the way that it has at it. Um, but the way that it has worked best is through closed eyelids. worked best is through closed eyelids. >> You can just charge it with like a >> You can just charge it with like a normal iPhone charger,

normal iPhone charger, >> USB charger. Yep. >> USB charger. Yep. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So, I have a clinician in Utah uses this >> So, I have a clinician in Utah uses this with his patients. He sends me case with his patients. He sends me case studies. Postconussion headaches, sinus studies. Postconussion headaches, sinus headaches, stress headaches, migraine headaches, stress headaches, migraine headaches, all of these relieved by headaches, all of these relieved by green phototherapy. And you were saying, green phototherapy. And you were saying, "Well, could we make a guess at how it "Well, could we make a guess at how it works?" Um, works?" Um, the the PhDs doing this research, the the PhDs doing this research, they're like neurologists. I'm an they're like neurologists. I'm an engineer. I make machines. engineer. I make machines. >> I don't understand how the optic nerve >> I don't understand how the optic nerve or the brain works, or the brain works, >> but I understand how forest bathing >> but I understand how forest bathing works. In Japan, they have what? works. In Japan, they have what? >> Forest bathing. >> Forest bathing. >> Okay. So, it it's an expression that >> Okay. So, it it's an expression that translates this Japanese word that I translates this Japanese word that I forget what it is, but the the English forget what it is, but the the English interpretation of this Japanese practice interpretation of this Japanese practice is you go into the forest maybe four or is you go into the forest maybe four or five hours a week and you bathe in the five hours a week and you bathe in the forest metaphorically. You don't get forest metaphorically. You don't get wet, but you're you're allowing the air

wet, but you're you're allowing the air and the light environment of the forest and the light environment of the forest to be your environment. taking in the to be your environment. taking in the forest atmosphere of forest bathing forest atmosphere of forest bathing describes the mindful practice of describes the mindful practice of immersing one's senses in a natural immersing one's senses in a natural environment to that makes so much sense. environment to that makes so much sense. >> Shin yoku I guess is the term that uh >> Shin yoku I guess is the term that uh Google is telling us now you probably Google is telling us now you probably like get the point. Yeah. You go out in like get the point. Yeah. You go out in nature, you're going to feel better. nature, you're going to feel better. Everyone's had this experience. Everyone's had this experience. >> Yeah. Clinical trials show that you >> Yeah. Clinical trials show that you don't just feel better, you heal faster, don't just feel better, you heal faster, your mood improves, your health improves your mood improves, your health improves in every dimension when you go out into in every dimension when you go out into the forest. Not only that, but if you the forest. Not only that, but if you just paint a mural of a forest on the just paint a mural of a forest on the wall of a dentist office, the patients wall of a dentist office, the patients will report lower pain readings. Really? will report lower pain readings. Really? Exactly. If you give a hospital patient Exactly. If you give a hospital patient a window and outside their window is a window and outside their window is like a cityscape, it's a little bit of

like a cityscape, it's a little bit of benefit. But if you have trees outside benefit. But if you have trees outside their window, it will reduce their their window, it will reduce their hospital stays because they will heal hospital stays because they will heal faster. So there's something about the faster. So there's something about the green. Well, in the forest, you know, green. Well, in the forest, you know, there's all kinds of clean air and there's all kinds of clean air and wonderful things, but the light wonderful things, but the light environment is unique. every for every environment is unique. every for every shady forest throughout the world and shady forest throughout the world and people have brought spectrophotometers people have brought spectrophotometers and measured this dominated by two and measured this dominated by two wavelengths of light green that makes wavelengths of light green that makes sense you know the leaves are all green sense you know the leaves are all green >> and near infrared and that part doesn't >> and near infrared and that part doesn't really make a lot of sense but it turns really make a lot of sense but it turns out that the trees are emitting two out that the trees are emitting two wavelengths of light that they can't wavelengths of light that they can't really use green and near infrared one really use green and near infrared one of them is visible to us and one of them of them is visible to us and one of them is invisible now if you live in Phoenix is invisible now if you live in Phoenix Arizona like I Arizona like I You don't get green. There's no green. A You don't get green. There's no green. A palm tree is not a shady forest. So, you palm tree is not a shady forest. So, you are removed from that forest bathing are removed from that forest bathing environment. You got to drive two hours

environment. You got to drive two hours up to PAC or Flagstaff or something like up to PAC or Flagstaff or something like that if you want to find the forest in that if you want to find the forest in Arizona. It's beautiful up there, but I Arizona. It's beautiful up there, but I don't have all day for this. The theory don't have all day for this. The theory is that we can bring the green light of is that we can bring the green light of the forest, which I am in deficit of the forest, which I am in deficit of because I live in Phoenix. can bring it because I live in Phoenix. can bring it into my home. We can bring it into my into my home. We can bring it into my eyes and then we can give me one of the eyes and then we can give me one of the benefits of forest bathing. That is the benefits of forest bathing. That is the light environment of the forest in my light environment of the forest in my apartment, you know, in a high-rise in apartment, you know, in a high-rise in Phoenix. Phoenix. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> That doesn't say how or why it works, >> That doesn't say how or why it works, but that is kind of a naturalistic but that is kind of a naturalistic explanation for us to investigate. explanation for us to investigate. >> That's fascinating, right? >> That's fascinating, right? >> It sure is. >> It sure is. All of the the baby formulas in the US, All of the the baby formulas in the US, it's impossible to find them that don't it's impossible to find them that don't have seed oils in them. So like my we have seed oils in them. So like my we were looking to buy baby formula and my were looking to buy baby formula and my wife had to order the baby formula from

wife had to order the baby formula from Germany because there's they the same Germany because there's they the same company, same exact logo, everything company, same exact logo, everything just you cannot buy it in the US without just you cannot buy it in the US without the seed oils in it. When my children the seed oils in it. When my children were little, um, you know, we wanted were little, um, you know, we wanted formula. I wanted to be able to feed my formula. I wanted to be able to feed my kids. Uh, for me, breastfeeding was kids. Uh, for me, breastfeeding was their principal source of nutrition. Um, their principal source of nutrition. Um, but we had the formula as a backup and but we had the formula as a backup and for whenever I was watching the kids. for whenever I was watching the kids. When it came time for they were starting When it came time for they were starting to grow teeth and we're going to give to grow teeth and we're going to give them some solid foods, I feel terrible them some solid foods, I feel terrible about this to this day. I did what my about this to this day. I did what my mother told me, which was to start them mother told me, which was to start them on Cheerios. I should have started them on Cheerios. I should have started them on salmon. I should have started them on on salmon. I should have started them on scrambled eggs. I should have started scrambled eggs. I should have started them on steak or high quality protein. I them on steak or high quality protein. I didn't know at that time. didn't know at that time. >> I believed the nutritional lies that my >> I believed the nutritional lies that my mother had taught me from childhood. So, mother had taught me from childhood. So, there are some people out there that are there are some people out there that are sort of formula purists. I don't care sort of formula purists. I don't care what's in the formula. You shouldn't be what's in the formula. You shouldn't be feeding your kid formula anyway. I'm not

feeding your kid formula anyway. I'm not one of those people. Um, one of those people. Um, >> yeah. Some people can't produce milk >> yeah. Some people can't produce milk naturally. They have trouble. They can't naturally. They have trouble. They can't >> some babies with no mom. Like, we need >> some babies with no mom. Like, we need formula in this country. for emotional, formula in this country. for emotional, economic, and practical reasons. And it economic, and practical reasons. And it should be good goddamn formula. And then should be good goddamn formula. And then the babies are going to be on it for the babies are going to be on it for several months, which is a very short several months, which is a very short period of their whole life, but a period of their whole life, but a critical period for neurological critical period for neurological development and immunological development and immunological development. So this is the brain and development. So this is the brain and the immune system. During those periods the immune system. During those periods of rapid development of the uh immune of rapid development of the uh immune system and the brain system, if you system and the brain system, if you don't get things right, you will either, don't get things right, you will either, like with my son, result in some like with my son, result in some atypical immunological atypical immunological trajectory of development that leaves trajectory of development that leaves him vulnerable to autoimmune disorder, him vulnerable to autoimmune disorder, in his case, type 1 diabetes. That's the in his case, type 1 diabetes. That's the immune system, which relies on vitamin immune system, which relies on vitamin D. or in the neurological system, you D. or in the neurological system, you will orient that child's development in

will orient that child's development in some atypical function that lives lives some atypical function that lives lives them vulnerable to autism. them vulnerable to autism. >> Now, this is something that Kennedy and >> Now, this is something that Kennedy and Barachara have been talking about. It's Barachara have been talking about. It's September. We're supposed to get September. We're supposed to get Kennedy's announcement about the causes Kennedy's announcement about the causes of autism. And there's a lot on there of autism. And there's a lot on there about genes cause autism. If I put about genes cause autism. If I put something on autism and mitochondria on something on autism and mitochondria on Twitter, I'm going to have people push Twitter, I'm going to have people push back on me and say, "You're an idiot. We back on me and say, "You're an idiot. We know it's the MMR vaccine and that's the know it's the MMR vaccine and that's the only or whatever it is." I'm not a only or whatever it is." I'm not a advocate. I'm not a aluminum or mercury advocate. I'm not a aluminum or mercury advocate. These things are toxic. advocate. These things are toxic. They're neurotoxins. They would They're neurotoxins. They would certainly result in neurological damage certainly result in neurological damage to especially to a child that's on the to especially to a child that's on the edge. edge. >> But they are not the origin of autism. >> But they are not the origin of autism. It is that latest stage pregnancy and It is that latest stage pregnancy and the first several months to two years of the first several months to two years of life in which the brain and the nervous life in which the brain and the nervous system is developing more rapidly than system is developing more rapidly than at any other stage in which the at any other stage in which the metabolic state of the mother and the

metabolic state of the mother and the child is critically important. child is critically important. Metabolism, it has two components. Metabolism, it has two components. There's what's happening in the gut. The There's what's happening in the gut. The gut produces everything that goes into gut produces everything that goes into the bloodstream that feeds the the bloodstream that feeds the mitochondria. That includes glucose, it mitochondria. That includes glucose, it includes free fatty acids. So the includes free fatty acids. So the mitochondria are downstream of the gut mitochondria are downstream of the gut and if the mitochondria aren't in a and if the mitochondria aren't in a healthy state because it is the healthy state because it is the mitochondria that guide the development mitochondria that guide the development of the brain, impaired mitochondrial of the brain, impaired mitochondrial function will lead to atypical function will lead to atypical neurological development. Just like my neurological development. Just like my son was vulnerable to the onset of type son was vulnerable to the onset of type 1 diabetes because he didn't get enough 1 diabetes because he didn't get enough vitamin D. If the mitochondria of the vitamin D. If the mitochondria of the mother or the child are impaired during mother or the child are impaired during those critical stages of development, those critical stages of development, they become vulnerable to neurological they become vulnerable to neurological regression. So this is uh the child regression. So this is uh the child speaking words, making good eye contact, speaking words, making good eye contact, they're social, but then they experience they're social, but then they experience a fever. The fever causes inflammation a fever. The fever causes inflammation in the brain and this tips them into

in the brain and this tips them into neurological regression. In other words, neurological regression. In other words, they have a fragile neurological system they have a fragile neurological system because their mitochondria were impaired because their mitochondria were impaired during its development. Even if you fix during its development. Even if you fix the mitochondria later in life, the the mitochondria later in life, the development of the brain can still be development of the brain can still be vulnerable to the onset of autism. You vulnerable to the onset of autism. You give a now the vaccine increases the give a now the vaccine increases the toxic load on the mitochondria. It's toxic load on the mitochondria. It's absolutely true. Get the aluminum for absolutely true. Get the aluminum for example the hell out of the example the hell out of the >> well they say that it can't the >> well they say that it can't the thyarisol the can't even be stored thyarisol the can't even be stored without the thyosol right like without the thyosol right like >> oops yeah >> oops yeah >> oh well maybe we'll come up with some >> oh well maybe we'll come up with some other way for the children to get other way for the children to get chickenpox like it it makes me a little chickenpox like it it makes me a little angry but I'm not the I'm not making a angry but I'm not the I'm not making a scene specialist argument scene specialist argument >> um >> um >> what I'm saying is that children will >> what I'm saying is that children will often have fevers in response to a this often have fevers in response to a this is a normal is a normal response. It's not even counted as response. It's not even counted as injury. It's a injury. It's a activation that creates a fever in the

activation that creates a fever in the child. child. >> That fever will is associated with >> That fever will is associated with swelling in the brain. That fever can be swelling in the brain. That fever can be the onset of neurological regression. the onset of neurological regression. Now, the experience of the parent is I Now, the experience of the parent is I had a perfectly healthy child. I went in had a perfectly healthy child. I went in for one of those bogus wellchild visits. for one of those bogus wellchild visits. They loaded up my kid with vaccines. 24 They loaded up my kid with vaccines. 24 hours later, he's banging his head, he's hours later, he's banging his head, he's spinning, and he can't speak. spinning, and he can't speak. >> How you cannot tell that parent anything >> How you cannot tell that parent anything but the vacine caused the child's but the vacine caused the child's autism. That is their experience. And autism. That is their experience. And I'm not I'm not contradicting it, but I'm not I'm not contradicting it, but their child was made vulnerable to that their child was made vulnerable to that injury by impaired mitochondrial injury by impaired mitochondrial function earlier in the child's life. function earlier in the child's life. >> So what am I saying? We must take care >> So what am I saying? We must take care of the metabolism of pregnant women. of the metabolism of pregnant women. Mhm. Mhm. >> The most important factor that will >> The most important factor that will modify or increase the risk of autism in modify or increase the risk of autism in later in the child is the metab later in the child is the metab metabolic state of the mother during

metabolic state of the mother during pregnancy. If her metabolism is pregnancy. If her metabolism is impaired, the child's neurological impaired, the child's neurological system, it will not develop in a typical system, it will not develop in a typical and healthy way. It will become more and healthy way. It will become more vulnerable to other toxins. So, one of vulnerable to other toxins. So, one of the things that Kennedy put was um the things that Kennedy put was um there's an association between Tylenol there's an association between Tylenol use and autism. And there absolutely is. use and autism. And there absolutely is. The evidence is very strong. The evidence is very strong. >> There's also an association between >> There's also an association between ibuprofen and autism. ibuprofen and autism. What do you give a child when they have What do you give a child when they have a fever in response to a injury or a fever in response to a injury or anything else? You give them Tylenol. anything else? You give them Tylenol. >> It's not the Tylenol and Tylenol is not >> It's not the Tylenol and Tylenol is not good for young kids. It's toxic to the good for young kids. It's toxic to the liver. It's not good at all. And you liver. It's not good at all. And you especially not give it to infants or especially not give it to infants or young children. But the reason the young children. But the reason the parent is giving the Tylenol is because parent is giving the Tylenol is because they have the fever and the brain they have the fever and the brain inflammation. So we need to look deeper inflammation. So we need to look deeper than just the superficial causes. Autism than just the superficial causes. Autism originates originates >> highenol specifically or is any other >> highenol specifically or is any other medication similar to that? So the data, medication similar to that? So the data, Tylenol, Motrin,

Tylenol, Motrin, >> uh all of them are associated with an >> uh all of them are associated with an increased risk or frequency of autism increased risk or frequency of autism diagnosis. Now Tylenol popped up and I diagnosis. Now Tylenol popped up and I forget this is Dr. Walker's research, if forget this is Dr. Walker's research, if I'm remembering the name correctly, I'm remembering the name correctly, Tylenol popped up as higher than Tylenol popped up as higher than ibuprofen, but both of them were ibuprofen, but both of them were associated with elevated risk. That's associated with elevated risk. That's not a mechanism. And again, Tylenol has not a mechanism. And again, Tylenol has side effects that make it uh dangerous, side effects that make it uh dangerous, especially for young children, but it's especially for young children, but it's the reason that you're giving the the reason that you're giving the Tylenol that you really have to look at Tylenol that you really have to look at for the origins of autism. It is in, and for the origins of autism. It is in, and I have a good interview with Dr. Richard I have a good interview with Dr. Richard Fry on this, it is in mitochondrial Fry on this, it is in mitochondrial dysfunction. The mitochondria are dysfunction. The mitochondria are responsible for forming and pruning the responsible for forming and pruning the neural connections in the brain. If the neural connections in the brain. If the mitochondria are impaired, the brain mitochondria are impaired, the brain doesn't go right. And so, we'll see what doesn't go right. And so, we'll see what Kennedy and Bachara say later this Kennedy and Bachara say later this month. I think I mean, I know they're month. I think I mean, I know they're aware of the mitochondrial uh theory of aware of the mitochondrial uh theory of autism and we'll see how much that plays

autism and we'll see how much that plays in. What is one of the best things that in. What is one of the best things that a pregnant woman can do to heal her a pregnant woman can do to heal her mitochondria, to boost her metabolism? mitochondria, to boost her metabolism? get in the cold plunge. get in the cold plunge. >> There are a number of women who have >> There are a number of women who have written to me and practiced this, had written to me and practiced this, had excellent birth outcomes. There's good excellent birth outcomes. There's good epidemiological data on cold exposure epidemiological data on cold exposure during pregnancy and improve birth during pregnancy and improve birth outcomes. So, it's a wonderful thing, outcomes. So, it's a wonderful thing, especially late stage in pregnancy. If especially late stage in pregnancy. If you can't exercise, you can't fix your you can't exercise, you can't fix your diet, your sleep is disrupted by your diet, your sleep is disrupted by your pregnancy, you can at least get into the pregnancy, you can at least get into the ice bath for 2 minutes. Inflammation ice bath for 2 minutes. Inflammation will go down, mobility will go up, sleep will go down, mobility will go up, sleep quality will improve, and mitochondrial quality will improve, and mitochondrial function will improve. function will improve. The insurance company should legally not The insurance company should legally not be allowed to incentivize their doctors be allowed to incentivize their doctors to inject these experimental drugs into to inject these experimental drugs into children for for thousands of dollars. children for for thousands of dollars. That's That's >> Here's a big problem in the United >> Here's a big problem in the United States. Um, this dates back to like 1922 States. Um, this dates back to like 1922 or something. And don't quote me on the or something. And don't quote me on the year, but it is when the Dodge brothers year, but it is when the Dodge brothers decided to sue Henry Ford. The Dodge

decided to sue Henry Ford. The Dodge brothers were invested in Henry Ford's brothers were invested in Henry Ford's automobile company. And I'm going to automobile company. And I'm going to bring this back to pharmaceuticals. So, bring this back to pharmaceuticals. So, but bear with me. This case went all the but bear with me. This case went all the way up to the Supreme Court because way up to the Supreme Court because Henry Ford did not want to pay the Dodge Henry Ford did not want to pay the Dodge brothers or any of his shareholders a brothers or any of his shareholders a dividend. He said, "I'm going to take dividend. He said, "I'm going to take the money that we're making. I'm going the money that we're making. I'm going to reinvest it in making the product to reinvest it in making the product better, the working conditions better, better, the working conditions better, the, you know, vehicles safer, and the the, you know, vehicles safer, and the factory more productive." And the Dodge factory more productive." And the Dodge brothers said, "Screw you. We want a brothers said, "Screw you. We want a dividend." All the way up to the Supreme dividend." All the way up to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court says that Court. And the Supreme Court says that whomever is running the publicly traded whomever is running the publicly traded company has a legal obligation to company has a legal obligation to maximize shareholder value. maximize shareholder value. >> This is not a moral principle anymore. >> This is not a moral principle anymore. This is a legal principle. So now you This is a legal principle. So now you take the chief executives at Fizer. take the chief executives at Fizer. >> What was the name of that case again? >> What was the name of that case again? >> It was Dodge brothers versus Ford. Um >> It was Dodge brothers versus Ford. Um you can look it up. a Supreme Court you can look it up. a Supreme Court decision maximize shareholder value and decision maximize shareholder value and you will get the right case so you don't you will get the right case so you don't have to take my word for it have to take my word for it since the early 20s every executive of

since the early 20s every executive of every US publicly traded company is every US publicly traded company is legally obliged to operate the company legally obliged to operate the company as if he was maximizing shareholder as if he was maximizing shareholder value. Now a guy like Steve Jobs didn't value. Now a guy like Steve Jobs didn't give a damn about shareholder value. He give a damn about shareholder value. He never paid a dividend. didn't have a never paid a dividend. didn't have a stock buyback or anything cuz he was so stock buyback or anything cuz he was so I guess obstreporous or something, you I guess obstreporous or something, you know. But as soon as Jobs died, what did know. But as soon as Jobs died, what did Tim Cook do? He started paying a Tim Cook do? He started paying a dividend and he started shareholder dividend and he started shareholder buybacks. Jobs felt like if you're using buybacks. Jobs felt like if you're using your cash your cash >> to to return to investors, it's because >> to to return to investors, it's because you don't have any more good ideas to you don't have any more good ideas to invest in. But he was an iconoclast. The invest in. But he was an iconoclast. The executives of the pharmaceutical executives of the pharmaceutical companies in the United States, they are companies in the United States, they are organized as C corps. They must they are organized as C corps. They must they are legally obliged to maximize shareholder legally obliged to maximize shareholder value. They are not legally obliged to value. They are not legally obliged to maximize shareholder value unless you maximize shareholder value unless you make some people sick. If it comes down make some people sick. If it comes down to whether they would put patient

to whether they would put patient welfare and well-being first or put welfare and well-being first or put shareholder value first. They have a shareholder value first. They have a legit argument to say, "I am obliged by legit argument to say, "I am obliged by the Supreme Court of the United States the Supreme Court of the United States to maximize shareholder value, even if to maximize shareholder value, even if it comes at the expense of patients. As it comes at the expense of patients. As long as it's been approved by the FDA long as it's been approved by the FDA and I'm within the regulatory and I'm within the regulatory requirements, I have no flexibility." requirements, I have no flexibility." That is a [ __ ] reason to to poison That is a [ __ ] reason to to poison people, make them sick, to create people people, make them sick, to create people who are lifetime dependent upon your who are lifetime dependent upon your project. I'm not defending it on a moral project. I'm not defending it on a moral or ethical basis. What I'm saying is we or ethical basis. What I'm saying is we have a systemic problem with for-profit have a systemic problem with for-profit healthcare in the United States and we healthcare in the United States and we cannot rely upon the pharmaceutical cannot rely upon the pharmaceutical companies to fix it. We can't shame the companies to fix it. We can't shame the pharmaceutical companies into behaving pharmaceutical companies into behaving better. What we need to do is yeah, get better. What we need to do is yeah, get them off the airwaves. They're the them off the airwaves. They're the biggest advertisers. So, of course, they biggest advertisers. So, of course, they own the mainstream media channels. So, own the mainstream media channels. So, shut that down. shut that down. >> But we also need to move them to BC >> But we also need to move them to BC corporations instead of Ccorporations. A

corporations instead of Ccorporations. A BC corporation is allowed to be for BC corporation is allowed to be for profit, but it's organized for public profit, but it's organized for public benefit. It's not a nonprofit. It's a benefit. It's not a nonprofit. It's a for-profit corporation organized for for-profit corporation organized for public benefit. We must remove from them public benefit. We must remove from them this crazy ass constraint that says this crazy ass constraint that says for-profit healthcare is more obliged to for-profit healthcare is more obliged to the shareholders than it is to the the shareholders than it is to the patient. So, that's another policy patient. So, that's another policy change that we can make. The idea change that we can make. The idea uh that we could murder or shame our way uh that we could murder or shame our way to better behavior inside these publicly to better behavior inside these publicly traded CC corporations is is a fantasy traded CC corporations is is a fantasy in the extreme. We need to reorganize in the extreme. We need to reorganize the way for-profit healthcare works in the way for-profit healthcare works in the United States to change the the United States to change the incentive constructors and in incentive constructors and in constraints under which they operate. constraints under which they operate. So, uh I'm I'm not defending murder. I'm So, uh I'm I'm not defending murder. I'm like real bad with that. And I'm not like real bad with that. And I'm not disagreeing with the people who are disagreeing with the people who are criticizing the the executives who are

criticizing the the executives who are lying, cheating, stealing moral scum in lying, cheating, stealing moral scum in the way that they have behaved. What I'm the way that they have behaved. What I'm saying is we need to operate at a higher saying is we need to operate at a higher level, a more systemic level to level, a more systemic level to dismantle the mechanisms that is the dismantle the mechanisms that is the infrastructure of healthcare in our infrastructure of healthcare in our country that has gotten us to this country that has gotten us to this miserable state where life expectancy in miserable state where life expectancy in the United States hasn't improved since the United States hasn't improved since like 2012. like 2012. >> Right. >> Right. Well, it is optimistic to see um I just Well, it is optimistic to see um I just saw this I think yesterday that they're saw this I think yesterday that they're and maybe you can find this Steve to and maybe you can find this Steve to confirm it, but um I saw that they or confirm it, but um I saw that they or RFK did something where he made it so RFK did something where he made it so advertisers now pharmaceutical advertisers now pharmaceutical advertisers now have to list every advertisers now have to list every single one of the side effects on all on single one of the side effects on all on all of their ads. And that was a lot. all of their ads. And that was a lot. >> What was your reaction to that? >> What was your reaction to that? >> I thought that was incredible. That's a >> I thought that was incredible. That's a huge step in the right direction. huge step in the right direction. >> When I listen to these ads, I thought >> When I listen to these ads, I thought they already were listening. You know, they already were listening. You know, explosive diarrhea, instant death. explosive diarrhea, instant death. >> They are. They they only have to list a >> They are. They they only have to list a a small percentage of them and they can

a small percentage of them and they can also say go here for more details. But also say go here for more details. But before I guess 1997, I guess they had to before I guess 1997, I guess they had to do all of them and that literally would do all of them and that literally would like triple the length of their like triple the length of their commercial. commercial. >> Okay. So the FDA recently sent out like >> Okay. So the FDA recently sent out like I think it's more than a hundred cease I think it's more than a hundred cease and desist letters to advertisers and desist letters to advertisers because of this policy change. The ads because of this policy change. The ads must change immediately. And I guess the must change immediately. And I guess the FDA has said you need to pull those ads FDA has said you need to pull those ads down now because they no longer down now because they no longer >> So when did this happen, Steve? When >> So when did this happen, Steve? When when did this actually get implemented? when did this actually get implemented? >> This is very recent. Yeah. >> This is very recent. Yeah. >> Like even in the time scale of podcast >> Like even in the time scale of podcast rules. rules. >> This is talking about the what you were >> This is talking about the what you were talking about the new the new thing, talking about the new the new thing, right? I'm still looking for it. right? I'm still looking for it. >> If you search for the FDA cease and >> If you search for the FDA cease and desist letters, you'll probably find it. desist letters, you'll probably find it. >> Yeah. It should be like the top of the >> Yeah. It should be like the top of the news. Like it should be on the top of news. Like it should be on the top of every single news site right now. every single news site right now. I was really happy to see that because I was really happy to see that because >> pharmaceutical ads um target patients >> pharmaceutical ads um target patients because they work. Like they wouldn't be because they work. Like they wouldn't be spending all this freaking money if they

spending all this freaking money if they didn't if bypassing the physician didn't didn't if bypassing the physician didn't work. Ask your doctor if stiffel is work. Ask your doctor if stiffel is right for you or whatever the hell. right for you or whatever the hell. >> So this is FDA launches crackdown on >> So this is FDA launches crackdown on deceptive drug advertising from deceptive drug advertising from September 9th, which was two days ago. September 9th, which was two days ago. >> Two days ago. There we go. US Department >> Two days ago. There we go. US Department of Health and Human Services and the of Health and Human Services and the Food and Drug Administration today Food and Drug Administration today announced sweeping reforms to rein in announced sweeping reforms to rein in misleading direct to consumer misleading direct to consumer pharmaceutical advertising. Today, the pharmaceutical advertising. Today, the FDA is sending thousands of letters uh FDA is sending thousands of letters uh of letters warning pharmaceutical of letters warning pharmaceutical companies to remove misleading ads and companies to remove misleading ads and issuing approximately 100 cease and issuing approximately 100 cease and desist letters to companies with desist letters to companies with deceptive ads. Um, in addition to deceptive ads. Um, in addition to enforcing existing law, the FDA is enforcing existing law, the FDA is insinu or in uh initiating rulem to insinu or in uh initiating rulem to close the adequate provision loophole. close the adequate provision loophole. Okay, that's what it was called. The Okay, that's what it was called. The adequate provision loophole created in adequate provision loophole created in 1997, which drug companies have used to 1997, which drug companies have used to conceal critical safety risks and conceal critical safety risks and broadcasting and digital ads, fueling broadcasting and digital ads, fueling inappropriate drug use and eroding inappropriate drug use and eroding public trust.

public trust. >> So, this is Marty Macker is um running >> So, this is Marty Macker is um running the FDA. I think he's called the the FDA. I think he's called the commissioner of the FDA. Okay. commissioner of the FDA. Okay. >> Before he was appointed, he was a John's >> Before he was appointed, he was a John's Hopkins professor who was vocal Hopkins professor who was vocal anti-lockdown. He's like, "These anti-lockdown. He's like, "These lockdowns aren't helping anybody. These lockdowns aren't helping anybody. These policies are hurting people." He wrote a policies are hurting people." He wrote a book called Blind Spots. And in this book called Blind Spots. And in this book, he was cataloging important book, he was cataloging important medical misconceptions, things that medical misconceptions, things that medical doctors believe that just medical doctors believe that just weren't true and needed to change. U one weren't true and needed to change. U one of those was hormone replacement therapy of those was hormone replacement therapy for menopausal women. Uh stands out in for menopausal women. Uh stands out in my mind because it's related to ice my mind because it's related to ice baths and cold plunge and sex hormone baths and cold plunge and sex hormone balancing. What he did not include in balancing. What he did not include in there was this relationship between there was this relationship between testosterone and prostate. Doctors used testosterone and prostate. Doctors used to think that elevated prostate or sorry to think that elevated prostate or sorry elevated testosterone would increase the elevated testosterone would increase the risk of prostate cancer. Right. risk of prostate cancer. Right. >> Absolutely false. >> Absolutely false. >> Y >> Y >> Dr. Abraham Morgan Tyler he's down here >> Dr. Abraham Morgan Tyler he's down here in Florida and he has done exhaustive in Florida and he has done exhaustive work revealing that misconception.

work revealing that misconception. So part of what fuels or perpetuates So part of what fuels or perpetuates these misconceptions and we have reams these misconceptions and we have reams of data that you'd think would overturn of data that you'd think would overturn it, but part of what fuels that is two it, but part of what fuels that is two things. One is advertising to the public things. One is advertising to the public these drug ads that lie to the public these drug ads that lie to the public about what the drugs do. And the other about what the drugs do. And the other one is called continuing education one is called continuing education credits. That is advertising essentially credits. That is advertising essentially to doctors, to physicians, to people who to doctors, to physicians, to people who have advanced degrees and are licensed have advanced degrees and are licensed to practice. calling it continuing to practice. calling it continuing education to try and bring them up to education to try and bring them up to speed on the latest drugs or whatever it speed on the latest drugs or whatever it is. These continuing education credits is. These continuing education credits which are often required to maintain which are often required to maintain licenser or status within professional licenser or status within professional societies, they are all funded by societies, they are all funded by pharmaceutical companies when it comes pharmaceutical companies when it comes to medicine. So there's two levels of to medicine. So there's two levels of advertising. This one that we're seeing advertising. This one that we're seeing which it looks like Marty Macker is which it looks like Marty Macker is working with Kennedy to shut down. working with Kennedy to shut down. There's a whole another level that we

There's a whole another level that we don't see which is it is the don't see which is it is the pharmaceutical companies that are pharmaceutical companies that are writing the textbooks. It is the writing the textbooks. It is the pharmaceutical companies that are giving pharmaceutical companies that are giving away the seminars to the medical away the seminars to the medical schools. is pharmaceutical companies schools. is pharmaceutical companies that are running the continuing that are running the continuing education programs for physicians so education programs for physicians so that they can continue to brainwash that they can continue to brainwash otherwise intelligent people into otherwise intelligent people into thinking that something like a thinking that something like a testosterone blocking drug would help testosterone blocking drug would help their patient when in fact the data says their patient when in fact the data says increased testosterone is associated increased testosterone is associated with protection against prostate cancer. with protection against prostate cancer. So incentives are screwing up everything So incentives are screwing up everything in medicine right now. And there's the in medicine right now. And there's the other hidden layer that a lot of people other hidden layer that a lot of people don't see where uh pharmaceutical don't see where uh pharmaceutical companies are responsible for tons of companies are responsible for tons of content on the internet being buried and content on the internet being buried and suppressed. suppressed. >> Uh which is another huge problem >> Uh which is another huge problem depending upon which data source you depending upon which data source you site. iatrogenic injury. So these are site. iatrogenic injury. So these are medical uh errors or these are injuries medical uh errors or these are injuries caused by medical treatment. iatrogenic caused by medical treatment. iatrogenic injury is either the third or the first

injury is either the third or the first leading cause of death in the United leading cause of death in the United States. You don't see it on the States. You don't see it on the leaderboard when they say, "Hey, these leaderboard when they say, "Hey, these are the top top 10, you know, leading are the top top 10, you know, leading causes of death or something like that." causes of death or something like that." They always delete medical errors or They always delete medical errors or iatrogenic injury, but when you include iatrogenic injury, but when you include it, it either shows up number one or it, it either shows up number one or number three depending upon which state number three depending upon which state or which data set you or which data set you >> mean. So, it's one of those fancy words >> mean. So, it's one of those fancy words that I had to learn because we don't that I had to learn because we don't >> we can look up the etmology of >> we can look up the etmology of iatrogenic. iatrogenic. >> iatrogenic. >> iatrogenic. >> Yeah. can hardly pronounce it when I'm >> Yeah. can hardly pronounce it when I'm like recording for my audio books. It's like recording for my audio books. It's very embarrassing. So, we can just say very embarrassing. So, we can just say medical injury and that can result from medical injury and that can result from surgical errors, uh pharmaceutical surgical errors, uh pharmaceutical interactions that people weren't aware interactions that people weren't aware of, accidental overdoses, prescribing of, accidental overdoses, prescribing the wrong drug to the wrong person, the wrong drug to the wrong person, being unaware of um medical allergies. being unaware of um medical allergies. >> That's from Greek >> That's from Greek >> physician word iatros >> physician word iatros >> producing. So, iatrogenic physician or >> producing. So, iatrogenic physician or healer. healer. >> Yeah. Produced by a physician. Wow.

>> Yeah. Produced by a physician. Wow. Yeah. We were just talking about this Yeah. We were just talking about this the other day, how it's like the number the other day, how it's like the number two cause of death in the US. two cause of death in the US. >> Yep. >> Yep. There are hot tubs all over this country There are hot tubs all over this country and they feel great, but they make you and they feel great, but they make you sick. There's three things wrong with sick. There's three things wrong with them. Uh, for the most part, you can't them. Uh, for the most part, you can't put minerals in them. The ocean has put minerals in them. The ocean has minerals. Every natural hot spring in minerals. Every natural hot spring in the world is coming out of some ancient the world is coming out of some ancient volcano and it's got plenty of minerals. volcano and it's got plenty of minerals. It's part of the cubrious effect of the It's part of the cubrious effect of the health of the hotring is the minerals in health of the hotring is the minerals in the water. the water. >> But your hot tub doesn't have minerals. >> But your hot tub doesn't have minerals. It's got chlorinated florinated tap It's got chlorinated florinated tap water. So that's one. water. So that's one. >> The other one is the oxidation reduction >> The other one is the oxidation reduction potential. So this is some sophisticated potential. So this is some sophisticated water chemistry. But for your hot tub to water chemistry. But for your hot tub to stay clean, you got to put a bunch of stay clean, you got to put a bunch of chlorine that gives it an oxidative chlorine that gives it an oxidative potential to kill the microorganisms. potential to kill the microorganisms. every natural hot spring in the world. I every natural hot spring in the world. I I might be exaggerating slightly, but I might be exaggerating slightly, but when the water comes out of the volcanic when the water comes out of the volcanic ground, it is reductive. That is, it's

ground, it is reductive. That is, it's not oxygenated. It is got a negative OP. not oxygenated. It is got a negative OP. That means instead of stealing That means instead of stealing electrons, it's ready to donate electrons, it's ready to donate electrons. And it's typically the sulfur electrons. And it's typically the sulfur sulfate redux chemistry that controls sulfate redux chemistry that controls the oxidation reduction potential or OP the oxidation reduction potential or OP of the water. So, we want to make a of the water. So, we want to make a chlorine-free hot tub. We're using chlorine-free hot tub. We're using ozone. But to get that reduction, that ozone. But to get that reduction, that negative OP, you can switch it to negative OP, you can switch it to hydrogen. So, you turn the ozone off. hydrogen. So, you turn the ozone off. You turn the hydrogen on. 20 minutes You turn the hydrogen on. 20 minutes later, the bath is full of hydrogen. later, the bath is full of hydrogen. There's Epsom salt, which is a sulfate There's Epsom salt, which is a sulfate salt, other minerals in there. So, we salt, other minerals in there. So, we solve the mineral problem. We solve the solve the mineral problem. We solve the reduction problem. And then the third reduction problem. And then the third thing that's wrong with hot tubs is thing that's wrong with hot tubs is they're not grounded. You got your they're not grounded. You got your acrylic, your fiberglass tub. There's no acrylic, your fiberglass tub. There's no grounding anywhere, which means you have grounding anywhere, which means you have no access to the electrons from the no access to the electrons from the earth. But a Morasco, we call it the earth. But a Morasco, we call it the hydrogen mineral bath. I don't even know hydrogen mineral bath. I don't even know what to call it, Danny, but if you if what to call it, Danny, but if you if you look for the Morasco mineral bath, you look for the Morasco mineral bath, you'll find it. It's hot, 104°. It has

you'll find it. It's hot, 104°. It has hydrogen. It's grounded, and you can put hydrogen. It's grounded, and you can put all the sulfate minerals in it that you all the sulfate minerals in it that you want. want. >> Is there a picture of it on there? >> Is there a picture of it on there? >> Uh, you can find it online, Steve. You >> Uh, you can find it online, Steve. You go to Morasco. You go to our shop page. go to Morasco. You go to our shop page. >> Morasco hydrogen mineral bath. something >> Morasco hydrogen mineral bath. something like that. I should probably know, you like that. I should probably know, you know, my own product. But go all the way know, my own product. But go all the way over to the right, you'll see a button over to the right, you'll see a button called shop. called shop. >> You hit that and then uh there it is. >> You hit that and then uh there it is. Morocco hydrogen mineral bath. Morocco hydrogen mineral bath. >> Whoa. >> Whoa. >> The first one ships next week. It's >> The first one ships next week. It's going to Noah Synergard, going to Noah Synergard, >> who used to pitch for the Mets, and now >> who used to pitch for the Mets, and now he's like a big Maha guy. And so you can he's like a big Maha guy. And so you can see it has this barrel stave look and it see it has this barrel stave look and it kind of it looks like a boat in some kind of it looks like a boat in some ways. Um because you got the tub and ways. Um because you got the tub and then you have a trunk and you have a then you have a trunk and you have a hood and that's where the mechanical hood and that's where the mechanical equipment is contained. equipment is contained. >> See, I kind of wish I had a hot tub >> See, I kind of wish I had a hot tub instead of a sauna cuz then you don't instead of a sauna cuz then you don't cook your head. cook your head. >> No, you don't. Uh I'll tell you why for

>> No, you don't. Uh I'll tell you why for two reasons. The first one is this thing two reasons. The first one is this thing is incredibly expensive. Um like it's in is incredibly expensive. Um like it's in Noah's budget. He he's he texted me and Noah's budget. He he's he texted me and he's like, "Can't you make a hot tub?" he's like, "Can't you make a hot tub?" And I said, "Well, you know, it's been And I said, "Well, you know, it's been on our road map." Yeah. Right. The on our road map." Yeah. Right. The retail price $50,000 retail price $50,000 only. only. >> Let's see some more pictures. >> Let's see some more pictures. >> People like Noah can do it right now. >> People like Noah can do it right now. >> There's a a video of me in the >> There's a a video of me in the prototype. Um, all right. So, we have prototype. Um, all right. So, we have here's customer and his wife. Uh, they here's customer and his wife. Uh, they came over, they got in the hot tub. You came over, they got in the hot tub. You can see we have the green light in there can see we have the green light in there for calming. And in that video, I start for calming. And in that video, I start trying to explain things, but we will trying to explain things, but we will have better media next week because have better media next week because we're going to uh video record the crap we're going to uh video record the crap out of our hot tub before we ship it to out of our hot tub before we ship it to Noah. Noah. >> And why don't I want a hot tub versus a >> And why don't I want a hot tub versus a sauna, though. I mean, I think I do. sauna, though. I mean, I think I do. >> Uh I'm the worst salesman. Like, >> Uh I'm the worst salesman. Like, whatever. I should be trying to talk you whatever. I should be trying to talk you into this. I should say to my sales into this. I should say to my sales director, Scott, we got a new lead. Um,

director, Scott, we got a new lead. Um, but the sauna and the hot tubing are but the sauna and the hot tubing are different. different. >> When you get into the sauna, you get >> When you get into the sauna, you get vaso dilation. vaso dilation. >> The principal way that you cool your >> The principal way that you cool your body is to sweat. And so your body will body is to sweat. And so your body will open up the blood vessels and bring the open up the blood vessels and bring the blood to the surface of your skin where blood to the surface of your skin where the evaporation of your sweat will cool the evaporation of your sweat will cool the blood. That's vasoddilation via the blood. That's vasoddilation via sweating. When you get into the hot tub, sweating. When you get into the hot tub, your body knows that you can't sweat your body knows that you can't sweat into the water. The only parts of you into the water. The only parts of you are sweating are like your head or if are sweating are like your head or if your arms are out, they will sweat. your arms are out, they will sweat. >> But there's a principle called >> But there's a principle called hydromeiosis which Google thinks is a hydromeiosis which Google thinks is a spelling error. You know, everything spelling error. You know, everything that is saturated with water cannot that is saturated with water cannot sweat. So to defend your body from the sweat. So to defend your body from the heat in the hot tub, you will get vaso heat in the hot tub, you will get vaso constriction. Really in the ice bath, constriction. Really in the ice bath, vasoc constriction. In the hot tub, vaso vasoc constriction. In the hot tub, vaso constriction. So I'll tell you why the constriction. So I'll tell you why the hot tub is good. But for thermal hot tub is good. But for thermal contrast therapy, sauna, dry heat,

contrast therapy, sauna, dry heat, >> wet cold. Got it. >> wet cold. Got it. >> And that will be the smooth muscle >> And that will be the smooth muscle workout. Maximize your cardiovascular workout. Maximize your cardiovascular benefits. Sounds great. benefits. Sounds great. >> Hot tubs. Um, they're relaxing. They're >> Hot tubs. Um, they're relaxing. They're they're good in some other ways. The they're good in some other ways. The whirlpool was invented by an Italian whirlpool was invented by an Italian American. He was an immigrant named American. He was an immigrant named Jacuzzi. You probably It's a very famous Jacuzzi. You probably It's a very famous brand, right? brand, right? >> Sounds familiar. >> Sounds familiar. >> Yeah. So, he had a son with rheumatoid >> Yeah. So, he had a son with rheumatoid arthritis and the kid was young. He was arthritis and the kid was young. He was like 3 years old or something. I forget like 3 years old or something. I forget exactly, but his preschool age. And he exactly, but his preschool age. And he discovered that a hot bath with a discovered that a hot bath with a whirlpool jet would give his son some whirlpool jet would give his son some relief from pain. So instead of driving relief from pain. So instead of driving 45 minutes into this hospital in 45 minutes into this hospital in Berkeley, California to get his son Berkeley, California to get his son regular treatments, he invented the regular treatments, he invented the Whirlpool jets so they could have hot Whirlpool jets so they could have hot water at home. Boom. The whole Jacuzzi water at home. Boom. The whole Jacuzzi brand is built upon what Jacuzzi brand is built upon what Jacuzzi invented to relieve his son's pain. It's invented to relieve his son's pain. It's a wonderful story. Well, the jacuzzi was a wonderful story. Well, the jacuzzi was operating at a different time, you know,

operating at a different time, you know, in the 50s and the 60s. It wasn't seed in the 50s and the 60s. It wasn't seed oils and it wasn't like chronic oils and it wasn't like chronic oxidative stress, oxidative stress, >> right? >> right? >> The ice bath does different things in >> The ice bath does different things in the hot tub. The ice bath revs up your the hot tub. The ice bath revs up your metabolism. The hot tub doesn't do that. metabolism. The hot tub doesn't do that. People who do regular ice baths do not People who do regular ice baths do not suffer from chronic oxidative stress. It suffer from chronic oxidative stress. It relieves the pain of rheumatoid relieves the pain of rheumatoid arthritis. Jacuzzi could have done the arthritis. Jacuzzi could have done the same thing, but refrigeration is a lot same thing, but refrigeration is a lot harder to invent than a whirlpool pump harder to invent than a whirlpool pump that you put into a regular tub. that you put into a regular tub. >> People now do not get the same benefits >> People now do not get the same benefits from the hot tub as Jacuzzi's kid used from the hot tub as Jacuzzi's kid used to because they have suffer from to because they have suffer from different health states. different health states. >> If you ice bath all the time, you don't >> If you ice bath all the time, you don't suffer from those conditions. But not suffer from those conditions. But not everybody's going to get into an ice everybody's going to get into an ice bath. like your wife who hopefully your bath. like your wife who hopefully your son is going to talk her into it, right? son is going to talk her into it, right? But a lot of women out there are like, But a lot of women out there are like, "You'll never catch me in one of those "You'll never catch me in one of those things." Those people can get many of things." Those people can get many of the same benefits that is relief from the same benefits that is relief from chronic oxidative stress, reduction of

chronic oxidative stress, reduction of inflammation in a hot tub, as long as inflammation in a hot tub, as long as the hot tub is grounded, gets the the hot tub is grounded, gets the minerals are great, they feel good, minerals are great, they feel good, they're good for muscle soreness, they're good for muscle soreness, >> and has hydrogen. So, I disagree with >> and has hydrogen. So, I disagree with Gary Brea on uh some things. I think Gary Brea on uh some things. I think he's exaggerating when he says, you he's exaggerating when he says, you know, hydrogen therapy is the single know, hydrogen therapy is the single most underrated biohack that anybody can most underrated biohack that anybody can do. But that doesn't mean he's wrong. do. But that doesn't mean he's wrong. There are benefits to hydrogen therapy. There are benefits to hydrogen therapy. When you get into a hot tub with When you get into a hot tub with hydrogen bubbles in it, that hydrogen hydrogen bubbles in it, that hydrogen will be absorbed through your skin. It will be absorbed through your skin. It will relieve chronic oxidative stress. will relieve chronic oxidative stress. For those people who can't ice bath, For those people who can't ice bath, boom, hydrogen bath is the way to go. boom, hydrogen bath is the way to go. And the best way to do that is in the And the best way to do that is in the heat. heat. >> We might come out with a hydrogen oxygen >> We might come out with a hydrogen oxygen for cold tub just because, you know, if for cold tub just because, you know, if Brea is going to keep talking about it, Brea is going to keep talking about it, people are going to buy it. But I can't people are going to buy it. But I can't get behind like this super health get behind like this super health benefit. benefit. >> Yeah.

Transcript auto-generated by YouTube. Verbatim — duplicates intentionally preserved.

Hormones, Mitochondria, And Adaptation

Seager describes testosterone as a reflection of metabolism, not only a marker of strength or age. He connects sex hormone production to the mitochondria, saying that these cellular engines must function well for the body to synthesize hormones effectively. The felt outcome is practical: better metabolic function can show up as energy, vitality, and steadier performance.

The contrast he draws comes from a 1991 study that tested cold stimulation around exercise. According to Seager, cold after exercise lowered testosterone and luteinizing hormone. That matters because luteinizing hormone is part of the signal that drives testosterone production, and testosterone supports adaptation, recovery, and the sense of readiness many people associate with training well.

Then the order was reversed. When cooling came before exercise, Seager says luteinizing hormone rose strongly, and testosterone rose with it. He presents that reversal as the essential insight. The cold was not removed from the protocol. It was placed before movement, where it could prime the system instead of competing with the adaptation that follows hard work.

The proposed ritual is spare. Enter the cold. Stay brief. Then rewarm through movement that is light enough to restore coordination without becoming another stressor. The rewarming is not decorative; it completes the signal and brings the body back toward equilibrium.

The testosterone is a reflection of your metabolism.

This framing also respects the difference between training and recovery. A hard session asks the body to adapt. Cold immediately after that session can feel clean and decisive, yet Seager argues that it may interrupt part of the hormonal response people want from the work. Cold before movement asks a different question: how can the body be primed before effort begins.

The Backlash Needs Nuance

Cold plunging moved quickly from enthusiasm to skepticism. For several years, the practice gathered momentum through athletes, podcasts, and public figures who described mood, energy, and recovery benefits. Then the pendulum swung. Clips and headlines began to flatten the subject into a simpler claim: ice baths do not work, or they do not work for certain people.

That is not a useful way to practice. Cold exposure becomes weak when it is sold as one-size-fits-all, and it becomes distorted when discomfort becomes the only proof of value. A protocol should serve the body in front of it. The right dose for one person can be too much for another.

Seager points to the way Stacy Sims has been discussed online as an example of lost nuance. He says her position has often been exaggerated, especially in clips about women and ice baths. In his account, Sims acknowledges that ice has a role and that women can receive benefits, while also emphasizing that women should start warmer and adapt gradually.

That distinction matters. Starting warmer is not weakness; it is precision. Adaptation improves when the body has time to learn the stress. You build resilience by listening closely, not by forcing a temperature or duration that belongs to someone else.

The backlash carries a useful warning, even when it overreaches. Cold exposure should not become a performance of toughness. It should remain a deliberate practice with clear timing, measured dose, and respect for individual response. The goal is not to prove you can endure. The goal is to recover with intelligence.

A Personal Lab Story

Seager’s protocol began as a personal experiment, not as a polished wellness thesis. At 52, he says a blood test showed an elevated PSA. The result sent him into the familiar spiral many people experience after seeing a concerning lab number and searching online. Fear became the starting point.

Start wherever you're ready.

He was clear that he is not a medical doctor. He is a PhD, and he separates those roles. Instead of presenting his story as instruction, he describes the path he chose for himself: a ketogenic diet and daily ice baths, selected because he believed both could help with inflammation. The experiment was personal, urgent, and imperfect.

At the time, his cold setup was a chest freezer, not a refined sanctuary. He got in every day because he was afraid of where the medical pathway could lead. Four months later, he says his PSA dropped from seven to 1.8. A later test showed 1.1. Those numbers shaped the story, but they do not turn the story into medical guidance.

The surprise came from the rest of the lab panel. Seager says his testosterone measured 1180 nanograms per deciliter, high enough for the lab to flag it. His urologist questioned the result and asked for luteinizing hormone. When that came back at 8.9, Seager read it as evidence that his body was producing the hormone signal, not simply showing an isolated testosterone number.

This is compelling as a case study because it is specific. It is also limited because it is one person’s account, shaped by his body, his diet, his fear, and his daily practice. We can respect the data he shares without turning it into a prescription. Anecdote can open a door; it cannot replace care.

Dose, Safety, And Rewarming

Seager’s preferred dose is cold and short. He describes two to four minutes as enough for his daily practice, sometimes once a day and sometimes twice. That restraint is important. The cold does not need to become an endurance contest to be meaningful.

He is direct about longer plunges. A 20-minute ice bath may make a dramatic video, but he does not frame it as necessary for most people. The body can tolerate more than the ritual requires. Discipline is not the same as excess.

Overexposure changes how you function. Seager describes losing dexterity, motor control, and mental clarity after staying in too long. Those effects are not abstract. If your hands stop working cleanly or your thinking slows, you should not drive, handle tools, or take on tasks that require coordination.

Rewarming completes the protocol. Seager names movement, red light, sauna, blankets, heat, or a warm environment as ways to return the body toward balance. After a short plunge, light movement can be enough. After a longer exposure, the rewarming window must expand.

He offers a practical rule of thumb from the conversation: two minutes of rewarming for every minute in the cold. The exact method matters less than the intention. You leave the cold, then you restore warmth, clarity, and coordination before asking the body to do anything precise.

Safety is part of the ritual, not a separate warning label. Give yourself time before driving. Give your hands time before lifting, gripping, or working. A good protocol ends when you are fully back in your body.

How Cold Went Mainstream

Cold water entered the public imagination through performance first. Many people saw it in sports documentaries, locker rooms, and recovery footage, where elite athletes stepped into cold tubs after games or training. The practice looked specialized, almost distant. If you were not a professional athlete, it was easy to assume the ritual belonged to someone else.

Then the story widened. Wim Hof brought cold exposure into popular culture through feats under ice and in extreme environments. Scott Carney’s book, What Doesn’t Kill Us, gave the movement a journalistic narrative and helped bring Hof’s methods to a broader audience. Cold began to move from spectacle into practice.

When I say cold and short, two to four minutes.

Podcasts accelerated the shift. Long conversations gave people a way to hear protocols, doubts, and personal experiences in detail. Cold plunging became easier to imagine at home, not only in a training facility. The ritual became part of a larger conversation about recovery, mood, energy, and longevity.

Seager’s own precooling idea reached a wider audience when Joe Rogan discussed doing the ice bath before exercise in December 2022. Seager says people found the article, tried the protocol, and began sending him labs from around the world. A niche timing question became a public experiment.

The mainstreaming of cold exposure brings both access and distortion. More people can discover the benefits of a precise ritual, but more people can also mistake visibility for mastery. The grounded path is quieter. Cold is a tool for resilience, recovery, and deliberate adaptation. Use it with order. Use it with restraint.

Wim's Wise Words

A second take, from someone who's lived it.

If you take one thing from this, take the order seriously. Cold is not just a temperature. It is a signal. Put it in the wrong place and you can turn a precise ritual into noise.

My recommendation is simple: if you train for strength, muscle, or adaptation, stop treating the plunge as the automatic finish. Use cold before easy movement, or keep it away from your hardest lifting by several hours. Let the work have its full conversation with the body.

The best cold practice I have seen is rarely dramatic. Two or three minutes. Clean breath. No bargaining. Then you get out and move until your hands, feet, and thinking return. That last part matters. The protocol is not complete when you leave the water. It is complete when coordination comes back.

Where I Would Start

Start warmer than your pride wants. Use a temperature that asks for attention, not panic. Stay short enough that you can keep your breath steady and your mind present. If you are shaking hard, losing dexterity, or feeling scattered, you have already collected the signal. More time will not make it wiser.

I like cold before a walk, a gentle bike, mobility, or light loaded movement. Nothing heroic. Just enough circulation to restore warmth and remind the nervous system that the stress has passed. That is how cold becomes a primer rather than a punishment.

If you want the broader foundation, read The Honest Case For Cold. If your main question is training timing, pair this with Cold Before or After Training. The detail matters because your goal matters.

A caveat. Cold does not replace sleep, food, sunlight, strength work, or a body that feels safe enough to adapt. It can sharpen focus and build resilience through hormesis, but only when the dose fits the person. If you are new, smaller is cleaner. If you have heart concerns, blood pressure issues, pregnancy, or a history of fainting, get proper guidance before you make cold a ritual.

The mistake is turning discomfort into proof. Discomfort is information. Precision is the practice.

Use cold with intention. Rewarm with patience. Then carry that clarity into the next part of your day.