Sauna vs infrared sauna, sleep, and recovery: how heat, timing, cold immersion, and personal fit shape a protocol you can repeat with care.
Video·Peter Attia MD·10 min read·December 5, 2022
A grounded look at Peter Attia's current sleep protocol, from alcohol and meal timing to sauna, trackers, and the mindset needed to experiment without becoming rigid.
The Sleep Protocol Starts Before Bed
Sleep quality is shaped long before the lights go out. The final hours of the day leave a clear imprint on the night, from what you drink to when you eat to how much attention you bring to the transition into rest. A strong sleep protocol begins with that recognition. Bedtime is not an isolated event; it is the outcome of the evening.
Attia frames his current routine as the result of years of tinkering, made more consistent by a change in travel. Before COVID, he spent roughly 150 to 180 nights a year in his own bed. Now, that number is closer to 340. More time at home has allowed him to refine the inputs that support sleep with greater precision.
Consistency matters because the body responds to patterns. When your environment, meals, and evening pace repeat often enough, you can see what helps and what disrupts. The sanctuary of home makes those signals easier to read. A stable rhythm gives the night less to negotiate.
Alcohol is one of the clearest disruptors in his routine. When it sits close to bedtime, or even several hours before bed in a meaningful amount, sleep quality declines. Attia describes a familiar tradeoff: less deep and REM sleep, more light sleep, and more frequent wake-ups. The night may contain enough hours, yet still fail to restore.
That distinction is essential. Sleep is not only time in bed; it is the depth and continuity of the recovery inside that time. Alcohol can make the evening feel relaxed while quietly fragmenting the night that follows. The body pays attention to inputs, even when the mind has moved on.
The practical conclusion is deliberate, not severe. If you are truly optimizing sleep, evening alcohol moves to the edge of the protocol or leaves it entirely. For many people, that means drinking less overall, because most drinking happens later in the day. The point is not moral restraint. The point is clarity.
Still, a protocol is not a cage. Attia is careful to describe these choices as guidelines that hold most of the time, not rules that dominate every dinner or social night. That distinction protects the ritual from becoming brittle. Recovery improves when discipline and flexibility can coexist.
hey everyone welcome to the drive podcast I'm your host Peter attia Peter welcome to another AMA how you doing doing well how are you I'm not too doing doing well how are you I'm not too bad not too bad how's the week going bad not too bad how's the week going um it's good we're we're still uh um it's good we're we're still uh struggling with this decision about to struggling with this decision about to read or not to read the book so that's read or not to read the book so that's that's the uh that's the uh I guess that's the thing that's on my I guess that's the thing that's on my mind today at least mind today at least that's so anyone listening if they have that's so anyone listening if they have a strong preference either way if Peter a strong preference either way if Peter should read it or not let us know and should read it or not let us know and we'll tally up the votes well but that's we'll tally up the votes well but that's not a that's that's an uninformed vote not a that's that's an uninformed vote because I think people would naturally because I think people would naturally tend to vote for uh the author to read tend to vote for uh the author to read the book but I have I have information the book but I have I have information that they don't have which is I've that they don't have which is I've already heard myself read a sample of it already heard myself read a sample of it and it's absolutely horrible so and it's absolutely horrible so um if can I be coached into reading it better or do you just is it just you
better or do you just is it just you know flogging a dead horse and is it know flogging a dead horse and is it better off to just have a professional better off to just have a professional do it do it yeah no I think there's anything about yeah no I think there's anything about you it's that you're coachable you it's that you're coachable so so I think uh I think you could get there I think uh I think you could get there but I thought it would still be but I thought it would still be interesting to see what people think interesting to see what people think yeah yeah all right so Peter today's AMA not going all right so Peter today's AMA not going to be about the book but what it is to be about the book but what it is going to be about is sleep so sleep's a going to be about is sleep so sleep's a subject that I mean we've had a lot of subject that I mean we've had a lot of podcasts on podcasts on um especially with guests Matt Walker um especially with guests Matt Walker but it's been about two years since but it's been about two years since we've had any type of content on it and we've had any type of content on it and it's a topic that we get so many it's a topic that we get so many questions on and we continue to get so questions on and we continue to get so many questions on so what we did is we many questions on so what we did is we kind of compiled all those questions for kind of compiled all those questions for today and we're going to kind of discuss today and we're going to kind of discuss all of that so that will include all of that so that will include questions around your pre-bedtime questions around your pre-bedtime routine your behaviors as it relates to routine your behaviors as it relates to how you're currently improving your how you're currently improving your sleep we'll talk about the molecules
sleep we'll talk about the molecules that you currently use Pharma that you currently use Pharma over-the-counter supplements and how you over-the-counter supplements and how you think about that with not only you and think about that with not only you and your patients and then we'll also talk your patients and then we'll also talk about wearables you know what are some about wearables you know what are some of the pros of them how can they be of the pros of them how can they be helpful at the same time What are some helpful at the same time What are some of the potential dangers of them in of the potential dangers of them in terms of what people think about so terms of what people think about so with that said I think we'll just start with that said I think we'll just start jumping into it with question number one jumping into it with question number one yep that sounds great yep that sounds great perfect so you shared a bit ago on perfect so you shared a bit ago on Instagram kind of your thoughts not only Instagram kind of your thoughts not only around sleep trackers but also some around sleep trackers but also some changes you made to your pre-sleep changes you made to your pre-sleep routine which have been really effective routine which have been really effective and we received a lot of follow-up and we received a lot of follow-up questions from the audience where they questions from the audience where they just wanted to dive deeper into that and just wanted to dive deeper into that and so I think what maybe be helpful is just so I think what maybe be helpful is just start with what is your current pre-bed start with what is your current pre-bed time routine look like especially if time routine look like especially if you're really trying to optimize your you're really trying to optimize your sleep for that night sleep for that night yeah so you know this is kind of the yeah so you know this is kind of the result of result of I don't know many years uh certainly of I don't know many years uh certainly of tinkering uh and also uh kind of a
tinkering uh and also uh kind of a a luxury that I have today that I didn't a luxury that I have today that I didn't have pre-covet which is the luxury of have pre-covet which is the luxury of not traveling at least not with any not traveling at least not with any regularity I mean I used to regularity I mean I used to spend spend you know you know 150 to 180 days a year or a night a year 150 to 180 days a year or a night a year in my own bed prior to covet and that's in my own bed prior to covet and that's completely changed now it might be 300 completely changed now it might be 300 and 40. I mean so I'm really able to and 40. I mean so I'm really able to kind of dial in what I do at home so and it's also something I just it's something I kind of gravitate towards something I kind of gravitate towards paying a lot of attention to so so a lot paying a lot of attention to so so a lot of these insights are not necessarily of these insights are not necessarily new but it's just a question of being new but it's just a question of being diligent around putting them in place so diligent around putting them in place so so one of those of course is alcohol so one of those of course is alcohol um um very difficult to have a good night's very difficult to have a good night's sleep if you have alcohol in the sleep if you have alcohol in the proximity of bedtime or even if you have proximity of bedtime or even if you have two or three drinks several hours two or three drinks several hours removed from Bedtime it still will
removed from Bedtime it still will linger and linger and um that'll manifest itself in a number um that'll manifest itself in a number of ways but but probably most notably is of ways but but probably most notably is is kind of a reduction in the quality of is kind of a reduction in the quality of sleep so you'll see you'll trade more sleep so you'll see you'll trade more deep sleep and REM sleep for light sleep deep sleep and REM sleep for light sleep and then the other thing you'll see is and then the other thing you'll see is much more frequent wake-ups much more frequent wake-ups um so um so if you're really trying to dial in your if you're really trying to dial in your sleep you're you're gonna have to sleep you're you're gonna have to basically say I'm not gonna drink in the basically say I'm not gonna drink in the evening and for many people that just evening and for many people that just means not drinking period because most means not drinking period because most people are not drinking too much in the people are not drinking too much in the daytime and then cutting it out in the daytime and then cutting it out in the evening evening the other thing that the other thing that um I think I learned a lot when I was um I think I learned a lot when I was fasting like crazy is how much the sort fasting like crazy is how much the sort of low glucose empty stomach of low glucose empty stomach um um impacted sleep and it was it was impacted sleep and it was it was profound I mean one of the things that profound I mean one of the things that amazed me when I was fasting was how my amazed me when I was fasting was how my My Sleep Quality improved in in ways My Sleep Quality improved in in ways that that you know I'd never seen before frankly
you know I'd never seen before frankly um um and so I generally eat dinner early-ish and so I generally eat dinner early-ish and in large part that's because we have and in large part that's because we have kids so it's sort of you know they're kids so it's sort of you know they're going to bed early so we're eating all going to bed early so we're eating all kind of early kind of early but I noticed that if I pay attention to but I noticed that if I pay attention to it when I go to bed I'm a little bit it when I go to bed I'm a little bit hungry and I think in the past there are hungry and I think in the past there are times when I would have just had a times when I would have just had a little snack uh and now I don't you know little snack uh and now I don't you know now I just say I'm gonna go to bed with now I just say I'm gonna go to bed with a little bit of a hunger Pang and that's a little bit of a hunger Pang and that's also a very positive effect on sleep um we've talked a lot about Sana and you know not to get too far into this rabbit know not to get too far into this rabbit hole but as you know I've kind of taken hole but as you know I've kind of taken a 180 on sauna so I would say a 180 on sauna so I would say six years ago seven years ago when we six years ago seven years ago when we first really did our deep dives into first really did our deep dives into this I I came to the conclusion that this I I came to the conclusion that there was really no benefit to Sana that there was really no benefit to Sana that wasn't captured in a healthy user bias wasn't captured in a healthy user bias meaning all of the epidemiologic meaning all of the epidemiologic benefits associated with sauna which are benefits associated with sauna which are numerous I mean let's be clear there are
numerous I mean let's be clear there are immeasurable benefits that come from immeasurable benefits that come from sauna if you buy the epidemiology in sauna if you buy the epidemiology in particular uh an enormous reduction in particular uh an enormous reduction in cardiovascular mortality and mortality cardiovascular mortality and mortality associated with dementia um but I really felt that that was that was mostly a healthy user bias and I was mostly a healthy user bias and I think over the years think over the years with and we we do this every two or with and we we do this every two or three years we go back and internally three years we go back and internally revise our white papers on this revise our white papers on this and and I think it was the 2019 late 2019 early revisit this literature when I kind of changed my mind a little bit and I changed my mind a little bit and I started to say maybe the magnitudes of started to say maybe the magnitudes of the benefits associated with sauna are the benefits associated with sauna are being Amplified by these biases that being Amplified by these biases that can't be controlled for can't be controlled for but the direction of them the but the direction of them the consistency of them across studies led consistency of them across studies led me to believe there's probably something me to believe there's probably something there in addition to the plausibility of
there in addition to the plausibility of the mechanisms the mechanisms it's a long-winded way of saying uh you it's a long-winded way of saying uh you know I've I've become a pretty die-hard know I've I've become a pretty die-hard Sonic convert over the last couple of Sonic convert over the last couple of years and years and um you know we we have one at home now um you know we we have one at home now which uh you know I always get asked which uh you know I always get asked questions about sauna so I guess I'll questions about sauna so I guess I'll give a big a bit of a digression on what give a big a bit of a digression on what kind of sauna we have and it does kind of sauna we have and it does infrared does it have to be dry all infrared does it have to be dry all those things so let's let's park that those things so let's let's park that and we'll come back to it in a second and we'll come back to it in a second but I do try to get into that sauna at but I do try to get into that sauna at least four nights a week uh if not five least four nights a week uh if not five or six I'm really only limited by or six I'm really only limited by um you know how much work I need to get um you know how much work I need to get done but it's it's become a great Tool done but it's it's become a great Tool uh and I like it before bed so I know uh and I like it before bed so I know there are a lot of people who like to do there are a lot of people who like to do their sauna in the daytime they like to their sauna in the daytime they like to do it right after the exercise I think do it right after the exercise I think that's great but I've been using it that's great but I've been using it basically for two purposes one I do buy basically for two purposes one I do buy that there is some mortality benefit that there is some mortality benefit that comes from it uh but but that comes from it uh but but empirically the the impact this has had
empirically the the impact this has had on my sleep is insane on my sleep is insane it's so much so that I I've often it's so much so that I I've often wondered is the mortality benefit of wondered is the mortality benefit of sauna largely attributed to the Sleep sauna largely attributed to the Sleep benefits that come uh from its use I benefits that come uh from its use I don't know the answer to that question don't know the answer to that question of course it would be these would all be of course it would be these would all be very easy experiments to do if you lived very easy experiments to do if you lived in a resource in a resource um unconstrained world um unconstrained world uh so I'll pause there just so sort of uh so I'll pause there just so sort of see where you want to double down on see where you want to double down on which of those topics which of those topics well I think yeah so I wrote down some well I think yeah so I wrote down some follow-up questions and I think the follow-up questions and I think the first one is is there an ideal amount of first one is is there an ideal amount of time that you try and have between when time that you try and have between when you last eight and when you go to sleep you last eight and when you go to sleep I know it's it's gonna change for person I know it's it's gonna change for person to person but just a relative rough to person but just a relative rough number I think would be helpful for number I think would be helpful for people people I strive for about three hours I strive for about three hours between okay when I finish dinner and between okay when I finish dinner and when my head hits the pillow when my head hits the pillow and again I just I just want to be clear and again I just I just want to be clear on all this stuff
on all this stuff it's super important not to go psycho on it's super important not to go psycho on this and and I know that when I talk this and and I know that when I talk about it this way it sounds like I'm about it this way it sounds like I'm going psycho I'm not I want to be really going psycho I'm not I want to be really clear like last night clear like last night you know my wife and I went out to uh you know my wife and I went out to uh you know one of her friends was having a you know one of her friends was having a birthday party and we went out and birthday party and we went out and truthfully I probably ate an hour before truthfully I probably ate an hour before going to bed it didn't phase me right going to bed it didn't phase me right it's not like I was sitting there at the it's not like I was sitting there at the restaurant looking at my watch going oh restaurant looking at my watch going oh my God where is the food no no no no so my God where is the food no no no no so so you can do this most of the time and so you can do this most of the time and not be a psycho and I think that's the not be a psycho and I think that's the broader you know kind of lens you want broader you know kind of lens you want to look at through this which is these to look at through this which is these are general principles that are going to are general principles that are going to get violated quite often but you want to get violated quite often but you want to kind of revert back to them whenever you kind of revert back to them whenever you can can so you know this weekend you know you're so you know this weekend you know you're going to be in town late season I mean going to be in town late season I mean we've got tons of friends in town this we've got tons of friends in town this is going to be a bananas weekend I is going to be a bananas weekend I promise you there will not be a night promise you there will not be a night I'm going to bed this week where I will
I'm going to bed this week where I will have you know had three hours of rest have you know had three hours of rest between my last meal uh and there between my last meal uh and there probably won't be a night that I'm going probably won't be a night that I'm going to bed where I won't have had a drink to bed where I won't have had a drink but guess what like we have a bunch of but guess what like we have a bunch of friends in town and that's the way it's friends in town and that's the way it's going to be going to be um but that's not the norm and and I so um but that's not the norm and and I so I just think I just think um with sleep in particular there's such um with sleep in particular there's such a psychological component to this that a psychological component to this that you you just don't want to get too you you just don't want to get too wrapped up in your head about this sort wrapped up in your head about this sort of stuff because I think that can cause of stuff because I think that can cause more harm than good so you need to be more harm than good so you need to be flexible in this regard as an individual flexible in this regard as an individual and I think and not terribly rigid so I and I think and not terribly rigid so I just hope people can interpret what I'm just hope people can interpret what I'm saying as saying as guidelines that we try to stick to uh guidelines that we try to stick to uh but but we have the flexibility to but but we have the flexibility to deviate deviate yeah no I think that's really good and yeah no I think that's really good and it kind of fits back to what I believe it kind of fits back to what I believe is the last AMA we did where we kind of is the last AMA we did where we kind of talked about talked about um how you kind of think about doing um how you kind of think about doing everything together and how sometimes everything together and how sometimes you have to make concessions to live you have to make concessions to live your life right and so you don't have to your life right and so you don't have to be so robotic all the time and
be so robotic all the time and um we on that note we have a question um we on that note we have a question coming a little later on which is coming a little later on which is um maybe some of the dangers of sleep um maybe some of the dangers of sleep trackers not dangers in the city yeah trackers not dangers in the city yeah yeah it causes physical harm but kind of yeah it causes physical harm but kind of more so like the psychological piece so more so like the psychological piece so I'll save that for then but the other I'll save that for then but the other question that I had is question that I had is I know you like to think about things in I know you like to think about things in like a risk Matrix a lot in kind of like like a risk Matrix a lot in kind of like a two by two like are you picking up a a two by two like are you picking up a gold coin are you picking up a penny are gold coin are you picking up a penny are you picking it up in front of a tricycle you picking it up in front of a tricycle or a freight train right and it kind of or a freight train right and it kind of creates that two by two Matrix that you creates that two by two Matrix that you like to put in the boxes what's your like to put in the boxes what's your current view on sauna use in terms of current view on sauna use in terms of risk reward have you thought about how risk reward have you thought about how you would kind of quantify that based on you would kind of quantify that based on that risk Matrix that risk Matrix yeah and it's going to depend on the yeah and it's going to depend on the individual I do think that there are individual I do think that there are probably some people who you know probably some people who you know would need to sort of consult with their would need to sort of consult with their doctors before getting into Asana doctors before getting into Asana because to be clear you know when I get because to be clear you know when I get into Asana it's hot I mean we are saunas into Asana it's hot I mean we are saunas uh we run it at about 198 degrees
uh we run it at about 198 degrees Fahrenheit Fahrenheit um um and my typical routine is and my typical routine is uh 15 minutes and then a cold plunge and uh 15 minutes and then a cold plunge and then 20 to 25 minutes uh so you know by then 20 to 25 minutes uh so you know by that by the end of that second stint that by the end of that second stint you're really you're really um um you know you're really sort of taxed you know you're really sort of taxed um so there there's clearly a subset of um so there there's clearly a subset of the population for whom that might be a the population for whom that might be a little too taxing little too taxing uh outside of that I think look the uh outside of that I think look the biggest risk of sauna is uh and and I biggest risk of sauna is uh and and I there are other risks I mean I've heard there are other risks I mean I've heard horror stories of people that have had horror stories of people that have had accidents in saunas and things like that accidents in saunas and things like that so so we'll sort of bracket that all of so so we'll sort of bracket that all of those things are possible those things are possible but like anything else it comes at an but like anything else it comes at an opportunity cost because if I if I think opportunity cost because if I if I think about how much time about how much time I actually spend from the moment I I actually spend from the moment I decide to get in the sauna until I'm decide to get in the sauna until I'm ready to go to bed it's about an hour ready to go to bed it's about an hour so then the question is what else could so then the question is what else could I be doing with that hour I be doing with that hour that would be potentially better for me
that would be potentially better for me and in my case and in my case I don't think there's much because I don't think there's much because because you know my wife and I do it because you know my wife and I do it together every night it's actually a a together every night it's actually a a way to spend time together and talk and way to spend time together and talk and so you know we get all we get that so you know we get all we get that basically that hour to kind of talk when basically that hour to kind of talk when we probably wouldn't have otherwise I we probably wouldn't have otherwise I probably would have been glued to my probably would have been glued to my computer working computer working um and she would have been reading or um and she would have been reading or something like that but I think for some something like that but I think for some people that might not be the case for people that might not be the case for some people that opportunity cost might some people that opportunity cost might be too high maybe it's taking them away be too high maybe it's taking them away from an hour of sleep that they from an hour of sleep that they otherwise need whereas I'm still able to otherwise need whereas I'm still able to structure it in a way that I'm still structure it in a way that I'm still going to get eight hours in bed going to get eight hours in bed so I think that that's where I think so I think that that's where I think each person needs to kind of each person needs to kind of you know figure out what they're giving you know figure out what they're giving up for you know that amount of time now up for you know that amount of time now of course it could be less you could of course it could be less you could spend half an hour in Asana all told you spend half an hour in Asana all told you know if you want to spend 20 minutes in know if you want to spend 20 minutes in um you know it's call it a half an hour um you know it's call it a half an hour but you know in my at least in my world but you know in my at least in my world I think every minute counts I think I think every minute counts I think that's probably true for most people so that's probably true for most people so um I I would say time is a big
um I I would say time is a big opportunity cost of course there's a opportunity cost of course there's a financial cost you know financial cost you know um I think to um I think to easily utilize sauna in one form or easily utilize sauna in one form or another whether it's dry or infrared or another whether it's dry or infrared or whatever you know there's a financial whatever you know there's a financial investment in putting one of these investment in putting one of these things in your in your home or your things in your in your home or your apartment so that also needs to be apartment so that also needs to be weighed into it um and again I don't weighed into it um and again I don't know that that's so much a risk in the know that that's so much a risk in the way that we think of you know a drug or way that we think of you know a drug or something like that but it's certainly a something like that but it's certainly a cost cost and then as far as the benefits go and then as far as the benefits go um I I think there are benefits um some of them I think are not some of um some of them I think are not some of them are kind of soft benefits so again them are kind of soft benefits so again not to harp on this idea but you know I not to harp on this idea but you know I spending more time with your spouse if spending more time with your spouse if that's something that you guys can do that's something that you guys can do together you know there's no biomarker together you know there's no biomarker that's going to tell you that that's a that's going to tell you that that's a good thing uh but that's a good thing good thing uh but that's a good thing um Improvement of sleep I think is a um Improvement of sleep I think is a tangible uh way to assess benefit if if tangible uh way to assess benefit if if you fall in the camp of people who sleep
you fall in the camp of people who sleep is improved by that is improved by that um as far as the hard numbers that we've um as far as the hard numbers that we've covered before in other podcasts around covered before in other podcasts around the reduction in mortality uh the reduction in mortality uh I I I'd be hard-pressed to believe that I I I'd be hard-pressed to believe that there is that they are as strong as they there is that they are as strong as they are demonstrated in are demonstrated in um in the finished data sets um in the finished data sets but you know if they're half that but you know if they're half that they're still pretty good they're still pretty good um so it's harder for me to kind of um so it's harder for me to kind of quantify those benefits but um quantify those benefits but um yeah that that's sort of where I would yeah that that's sort of where I would sort of put sauna so so let me give you sort of put sauna so so let me give you another example Nick I wouldn't put another example Nick I wouldn't put sauna as valuable as exercise you know sauna as valuable as exercise you know you know when I start to think about you know when I start to think about like what are the levers you know an like what are the levers you know an hour of exercise I think is better for hour of exercise I think is better for you than an hour of sauna if you're you than an hour of sauna if you're really playing the game of really playing the game of of inches of inches yeah yeah definitely and then the other follow-up definitely and then the other follow-up I had written down is you kind of I had written down is you kind of mentioned a little bit but kind of your mentioned a little bit but kind of your view on dry infrared kind of the
view on dry infrared kind of the temperature you like to keep it at that temperature you like to keep it at that kind of stuff where where do you kind of kind of stuff where where do you kind of end up on there end up on there well I get asked this question a lot and well I get asked this question a lot and my answer is I don't think we know if my answer is I don't think we know if infrared and dry have the same benefits infrared and dry have the same benefits they're a very different mechanism they they're a very different mechanism they produce a very different feeling if produce a very different feeling if you're in them and the literature is you're in them and the literature is mostly on dry saunas so you know for mostly on dry saunas so you know for that reason and just for the fact that I that reason and just for the fact that I wanted to have a pretty large sauna and wanted to have a pretty large sauna and I like the experience the cedar this the I like the experience the cedar this the Rocks The Dumping water on it that whole Rocks The Dumping water on it that whole thing you know that that's just why we thing you know that that's just why we went with a dry sauna went with a dry sauna but not everybody has the space for one but not everybody has the space for one and the infrared devices you know they and the infrared devices you know they sell devices that are relatively sell devices that are relatively inexpensive relatively small such that inexpensive relatively small such that like if you you know if you if you live like if you you know if you if you live in a tiny apartment you could still have in a tiny apartment you could still have one and you might only be able to see one and you might only be able to see you know yourself in it and nobody else you know yourself in it and nobody else um um but that's you know there's I still
but that's you know there's I still think there is a benefit there uh though think there is a benefit there uh though it's going to be much more difficult to it's going to be much more difficult to quantify by attribution to the to the quantify by attribution to the to the literature literature and I've also heard you and I've also and I've also heard you and I've also heard Matt Walker talk about this which heard Matt Walker talk about this which is like even though as it relates to is like even though as it relates to sleep you know the benefits of sleep you know the benefits of Asana can be there but for those people Asana can be there but for those people who don't have access can't get access who don't have access can't get access even kind of like a warm bath or even a even kind of like a warm bath or even a hot shower can still have some of those hot shower can still have some of those sleep benefits that it's worth people sleep benefits that it's worth people testing before they go to bed those testing before they go to bed those types of activities correct absolutely types of activities correct absolutely and I think that's just kind of the and I think that's just kind of the broader theme around sleep is broader theme around sleep is you have to kind of try things several you have to kind of try things several times and realize if they work for you times and realize if they work for you or not I I think there are probably some or not I I think there are probably some people who if they do sauna before bed people who if they do sauna before bed it would probably have a negative impact it would probably have a negative impact on their sleep on their sleep um um whereas if they did it earlier in the whereas if they did it earlier in the day it might produce a better outcome so
day it might produce a better outcome so I think you just have to again it comes I think you just have to again it comes back to flexibility and back to flexibility and um and and and you know being being kind um and and and you know being being kind of um experimental in how you think of um experimental in how you think about stuff about stuff yeah and then the last follow-up yeah and then the last follow-up question I had wasn't planning on asking question I had wasn't planning on asking it but it's kind of come up a few times it but it's kind of come up a few times um from various episodes I mean mainly um from various episodes I mean mainly like strong convictions loosely held and like strong convictions loosely held and that's an episode we do every 100 that's an episode we do every 100 episodes where it's kind of like where episodes where it's kind of like where is your opinion changed and you know in is your opinion changed and you know in one of the recent amas you talked a one of the recent amas you talked a little bit about you know time little bit about you know time restricted feeding and how your opinions restricted feeding and how your opinions change and the importance of protein and change and the importance of protein and even in this episode you know you're even in this episode you know you're talking about your view on sauna has talking about your view on sauna has um kind of changed over time as new um kind of changed over time as new information becomes available and as information becomes available and as truthfully you know what you see with truthfully you know what you see with your patients in practice right like a your patients in practice right like a lot of times you're taking what the lot of times you're taking what the literature says and seeing how it literature says and seeing how it applies to people and there's always applies to people and there's always going to be that small group of people going to be that small group of people who are like who are like you know like why is your opinion change
you know like why is your opinion change how can you change your opinion you know how can you change your opinion you know how can you speak about something now in how can you speak about something now in this way and then change it you know this way and then change it you know what's what's how do you think about that in terms of how do you think about that in terms of like your journey and kind of how you like your journey and kind of how you work with patients you know and I know work with patients you know and I know again to tie back in a previous AMA you again to tie back in a previous AMA you talked a lot about how the biology of talked a lot about how the biology of aging's so confusing and so complex that aging's so confusing and so complex that there's always going to be changes any there's always going to be changes any advice you would have for advice you would have for people who are maybe a little more rigid people who are maybe a little more rigid and not open to that change in their and not open to that change in their opinions or their ideals opinions or their ideals I mean I don't think it's anything I I mean I don't think it's anything I haven't said before I think it just haven't said before I think it just comes down to what you anchor to if you comes down to what you anchor to if you anchor to being right or if you anchor anchor to being right or if you anchor to knowing the truth to knowing the truth I I I I if you can be more in the camp of the if you can be more in the camp of the latter it's easier for you to accept latter it's easier for you to accept change change um um if you if you anchor to being right
if you if you anchor to being right um You can sometimes get the right um You can sometimes get the right answer but if that answer changes it answer but if that answer changes it becomes difficult to change so becomes difficult to change so I think that's part of it I think part I think that's part of it I think part of it is also understanding the nature of it is also understanding the nature of science and the scientific process of science and the scientific process um um which is that you know which is that you know even the best experiments don't produce even the best experiments don't produce certainty they just increase the certainty they just increase the probability of one idea being more probability of one idea being more likely than another likely than another and and in that sense there really isn't much in that sense there really isn't much that's black and white in science most that's black and white in science most things are Shades of Gray now some things are Shades of Gray now some things are really really dark Shades of things are really really dark Shades of Gray I mean it's really clear that Gray I mean it's really clear that um um you know we code from DNA to RNA to you know we code from DNA to RNA to protein protein it's called the central dogma but turns it's called the central dogma but turns out there are a couple of little out there are a couple of little exceptions with you know viruses that go exceptions with you know viruses that go the other way around uh and and you know the other way around uh and and you know so so
so so on the edges there's always going to be on the edges there's always going to be exceptions uh potentially for things exceptions uh potentially for things that are even sort of Ironclad and very that are even sort of Ironclad and very few things are that Ironclad few things are that Ironclad um so I mean again we could go down the um so I mean again we could go down the rabbit hole of the whole debacle of rabbit hole of the whole debacle of covet right how many things were covet right how many things were deemed absolute certainties when they deemed absolute certainties when they had no business being deemed certainties had no business being deemed certainties um so I think if if there was a little um so I think if if there was a little bit just more acceptance of bit just more acceptance of um um how uncertain things are and operating how uncertain things are and operating in a world of probabilities uh I think in a world of probabilities uh I think it would just be a lot easier for people it would just be a lot easier for people to to kind of navigate the changes that to to kind of navigate the changes that are that are coming and I will say this are that are coming and I will say this I I don't find at the level of I I don't find at the level of interacting with my patients that this interacting with my patients that this poses a problem I think that I I have a poses a problem I think that I I have a hard time thinking of an example where a hard time thinking of an example where a patient was you know frustrated or patient was you know frustrated or disappointed that we were changing our disappointed that we were changing our point of view on something in the in the point of view on something in the in the face of new information I I've actually face of new information I I've actually think they they appreciate that think they they appreciate that yeah definitely
yeah definitely um anything else you want to touch on um anything else you want to touch on regarding your behavioral pre-sleep regarding your behavioral pre-sleep routine before we move to kind of your routine before we move to kind of your current current sleep molecule regimen yeah I think the sleep molecule regimen yeah I think the last thing I'd say is really last thing I'd say is really um um like trying to be like trying to be as unstimulated as possible before I go as unstimulated as possible before I go into bed so I even like floss and brush into bed so I even like floss and brush my teeth before doing the sauna so that my teeth before doing the sauna so that once I'm done with that sauna like it's once I'm done with that sauna like it's dark I basically just go to bed I'm not dark I basically just go to bed I'm not even going into the bathroom turning the even going into the bathroom turning the lights on I'm certainly not looking at lights on I'm certainly not looking at my computer or my phone or anything like my computer or my phone or anything like that so that that's probably another that so that that's probably another part of why this sauna is beneficial to part of why this sauna is beneficial to sleep you know it could there's so many sleep you know it could there's so many reasons here and one of them could reasons here and one of them could simply be that it's a forced hour of simply be that it's a forced hour of bringing myself down bringing myself down um as opposed to you know working right um as opposed to you know working right up until the last minute brushing teeth
up until the last minute brushing teeth flossing teeth jumping in bed so I I flossing teeth jumping in bed so I I think that's also a big part of this is think that's also a big part of this is just kind of dialing down the rheostat just kind of dialing down the rheostat of of stimulation before bed of of stimulation before bed yeah no I mean that makes a ton of sense yeah no I mean that makes a ton of sense um um so what about the molecules then what is so what about the molecules then what is kind of like your current sleep molecule kind of like your current sleep molecule regimen regimen thank you for listening to today's sneak thank you for listening to today's sneak peek AMA episode of the drive if you're peek AMA episode of the drive if you're interested in hearing the complete interested in hearing the complete version of this AMA you'll want to version of this AMA you'll want to become a member we created a membership become a member we created a membership program to bring you more in-depth program to bring you more in-depth exclusive content without relying on exclusive content without relying on paid ads membership benefits are many paid ads membership benefits are many and Beyond the complete episodes of the and Beyond the complete episodes of the AMA each month they include the AMA each month they include the following following ridiculously comprehensive podcast show ridiculously comprehensive podcast show notes that detail every topic paper notes that detail every topic paper person and thing we discuss on each person and thing we discuss on each episode of the drive access to our episode of the drive access to our private podcast feed the qualities which private podcast feed the qualities which are a super short podcast typically less
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Meal Timing Without Obsession
Meal timing becomes powerful when it supports rest without becoming another source of pressure. Attia aims to finish dinner roughly three hours before his head hits the pillow. That window gives the body time to move away from digestion and toward sleep. The benefit is simple: a quieter night.
His preference for an earlier dinner comes partly from family rhythm. With children going to bed earlier, the household naturally eats earlier as well. Over time, he noticed that this pattern supported better sleep, especially when he went to bed with a slight hunger pang rather than adding a late snack. The absence became part of the ritual.
I'm gonna go to bed with a little bit of a hunger pang.
Fasting sharpened that insight. During periods when he fasted heavily, Attia noticed that low glucose and an empty stomach had a profound effect on sleep quality. He does not turn that observation into a universal command. He uses it as a signal: late food can disturb the night, and an empty stomach can create a cleaner descent into rest.
This is where restraint matters. Going to bed slightly hungry is different from going to bed depleted or rigidly controlled. The protocol asks for awareness, not punishment. You learn the difference by paying attention to how your body sleeps after different evenings.
The three-hour window is a target, not a test of character. Attia describes nights when dinner happens only an hour before bed, and he lets that be part of life. A birthday, a dinner with friends, or a full weekend can break the pattern without breaking the foundation. The body responds to the norm, not the exception.
That mindset keeps the protocol human. If you spend the meal watching the clock, the pursuit of better sleep has already become too tight. The aim is to return to the pattern when you can, with no drama when you cannot. Balance is part of the method.
For most people, the useful experiment is direct. Eat earlier for several nights, avoid late snacks, and notice whether sleep becomes deeper, steadier, or easier to initiate. Then live your life and repeat the pattern often enough for it to matter. Mastery comes from repetition, not perfection.
Sauna As A Recovery Ritual
Attia's view on sauna has changed over time. Years ago, he believed the reported benefits were largely explained by healthy user bias, meaning people who used sauna were already more likely to live in ways that supported health. The epidemiology showed impressive associations, including lower cardiovascular mortality and lower mortality associated with dementia, but he questioned how much sauna itself deserved credit.
Over repeated reviews of the literature, his position softened. He still believes the magnitude of benefit can be amplified by bias, but the consistency across studies changed his confidence. The direction kept pointing the same way. In science, that matters.
The more immediate shift came through experience. Sauna became one of the most visible levers for his sleep. He uses it before bed, often four nights a week or more, and treats it as a tool for both recovery and rhythm. The value is not abstract when the night improves.
His typical routine is demanding. He runs the sauna at about 198 degrees Fahrenheit, spends 15 minutes inside, uses a cold plunge, then returns for another 20 to 25 minutes. By the end of the second session, the body feels taxed. That intensity is part of why fit and judgment matter.
For Attia, the ritual also creates time with his wife. They use the hour to talk, replacing what could have been more time at a computer or in separate evening patterns. That benefit does not show up as a biomarker, but it still belongs in the equation. Recovery includes the quality of how you live.
Sauna may support longevity, and Attia still gives weight to that possibility. Yet its strongest practical value in his own life appears through sleep. When a ritual makes the night visibly better, it earns its place. The body does not need theory before it recognizes relief.
This is a premium way to think about recovery: precise, experiential, and grounded. You do not need to worship a modality to use it well. You place it inside a broader protocol, observe its effect, and keep what serves the system. The ritual becomes valuable because it restores equilibrium.
Risk, Access, And Personal Fit
Sauna is not automatically right for everyone. Heat at the level Attia describes creates real stress, and some people should speak with their doctor before using it, especially at high temperatures or for longer sessions. The goal is adaptation, not recklessness. A recovery ritual should respect the body it is meant to support.
The largest practical tradeoff is time. Attia estimates that from the moment he decides to get into the sauna until he is ready for bed, the process takes about an hour. That hour has to come from somewhere. If it takes away from needed sleep, the protocol has defeated itself.
For him, the hour works because he still structures the night around eight hours in bed. It also gives him time with his spouse, which increases the value of the choice. For someone else, that same hour could compete with family obligations, training, or basic rest. Personal fit is not a footnote; it is the center of the decision.
Cost is the other barrier. A home sauna, whether dry or infrared, requires a financial investment and enough space to make use of it consistently. Some infrared options are smaller and less expensive, which can make them more accessible in a small apartment. Access changes the protocol, but it does not change the need for discernment.
Attia prefers dry sauna, in part because the literature is mostly based on dry sauna and in part because he values the experience of cedar, rocks, and water. He does not claim that infrared and dry sauna produce the same benefits. The mechanisms and sensations differ, and the evidence is not equally developed. Precision begins with saying what we know.
There's no biomarker that's going to tell you that that's a good thing.
Sauna also does not outrank exercise. When Attia compares the levers, he places an hour of exercise above an hour of sauna for health. That hierarchy matters because recovery culture can become distracted by refined tools while neglecting the foundations. Movement remains a higher-priority investment.
There are lower-barrier ways to test the evening heat effect. A hot bath or hot shower before bed can support sleep for some people and requires far less infrastructure. It gives you a practical entry point before making a larger commitment. The best protocol is the one you can repeat with care.
Experiment, Track, Then Loosen The Grip
Trackers can guide behavior, but they can also tighten the mind around sleep. Attia points to the psychological component of sleep as one reason flexibility matters. When the score becomes the authority, the body can start to feel managed rather than understood. Data should refine awareness, not replace it.
The useful posture is experimental. Try a change several times before judging it, because one night rarely tells the whole story. Test an earlier dinner, a sauna session, a hot shower, or a different timing pattern, then watch for a repeated signal. A protocol earns trust through pattern, not through a single result.
Even the best experiments don't produce certainty.
This also protects you from rigidity. A tracker can show that alcohol fragments sleep or that late meals correlate with more wake-ups, but it cannot tell you how to live every evening. Birthdays, travel, and dinners with people you love still belong in a vital life. The larger pattern carries the weight.
Attia returns to the idea of strong convictions, loosely held. That means you act with clarity based on the best information available, while staying willing to change when the evidence or your lived experience shifts. You do not anchor to being right. You anchor to finding what is true enough to guide action now.
Science supports that humility. Even strong experiments rarely deliver final certainty; they shift the probability that one idea is more reliable than another. Most health decisions live in that landscape. The wise response is not paralysis, but calibrated confidence.
For sleep, that means building a protocol you can trust without becoming owned by it. Protect the evening, respect alcohol's effect, create space between dinner and bed, and use heat only if it improves the night without stealing from the foundations. Then let the mind soften. Recovery needs structure, and it also needs stillness.
