Longevity / Muscle Is the Longevity Organ You Can Train Transcript

Muscle Is the Longevity Organ You Can Train Transcript

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What if everything you've been told about aging is wrong? That we've been talking about an obesity problem for the last 50 years. And I would also say that if you ask the right questions, then you get to real answers. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, physician, best-selling author of Forever Strong, and founder of the muscle-centric medicine movement, joins me to flip the script on health and longevity. The women got hornier, the men got hornier, like everything seemed to get better. I'm going to dive into her game-changing blueprint for excellent health and longevity, why so much of today's advice with regard to health is dead wrong, and the simple shifts that can make you leaner, sharper, and virtually bulletproof against disease and decline. So, if you want to live longer, feel stronger, and be unstoppable, this conversation is going to redefine how you think about health. And there is a reason as to why we are driven to feed. And I got more for you. Let's get started. [Music] Keeping it real with Jillian Michaels. Dr. Lyon, welcome to the show. I cannot believe we have never met. Well, we're fixing that immediately. it now. Uh I of course have known about you for years and admired you from afar and have watched so many different interviews, and I read your first book, Forever Strong, and I'm about to jump into your second book, the Forever Strong Playbook. Make sure I didn't mess any of that up. Uh with that said, can you tell

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that up. Uh with that said, can you tell the audience a little bit about you, who you are, your degrees, what you do for a living, because your bio is beyond impressive, and I I want everyone to hear all of it. Well, first of all, I appreciate that and I'm really excited to chat with you. I am a physician. I'm fellowship-trained in nutritional sciences and geriatrics. The roots of nutrition, health, and wellness go very deep. So, my undergraduate is in human nutrition, vitamin and mineral metabolism. Um I trained 2 years in psychiatry, 3 in family medicine, and then a another 2 years in uh nutritional sciences and geriatrics, and currently still do research, believe it or not. Uh it's my second book. I have a amazing medical-based podcast, health and wellness, and I'm a military wife of a former SEAL who's now in surgical training, which is hilarious when you have two little children. And I believe, I think a lot like you, Jillian, that we can make the world stronger and more resilient, period. I have quite a few questions that I took a very long time to write, so forgive me, but I don't want to miss any of them. So, one of the things that you do is really flip what we know about health on its head, and you basically argue that we've been asking the wrong questions about health span and longevity for decades. Uh what do you mean by that? And what are the wrong questions and what are the right ones? You know, humans are really interesting,

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You know, humans are really interesting, and once we understand something or think that we understand something, we go all in and we repeat it. And this is kind of a cognitive bias, and I would say that we've been talking about an obesity problem for the last 50 years. And I would also say that if you ask the right questions, then you get to real answers. And at one point in my fellowship, I was imaging a woman's brain, and you know, I was looking at her body composition and brain function, and her brain looked like the beginning of an Alzheimer's brain. And at that moment, I realized that it wasn't a fat problem, that we had been absolutely looking at the wrong tissue, and the underbelly of all of this was muscle. And we just have not simply addressed it, and skeletal muscle as an organ system. How are you missing something so obvious that's right in front of our face? You know, again, I think humans are funny, and um part of the challenge is when you think about obesity, it's something easy to see. And it affects people, but muscle is really related to being, I don't know, jacked and tan in the gym. We have not bridged the gap between skeletal muscle as an organ system and as the focal point for so many of the diseases that we see now, like diabetes, cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer's, which is type 3 diabetes of the brain, and we take for granted that it's always based on obesity, and obesity is the cause, but I would argue obesity is just one of the symptoms of

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obesity is just one of the symptoms of unhealthy muscle. And if we can reorient ourselves to muscle as an organ system, then we can get true and lasting transformation. It's cuz you know, it's not about what we have to lose, which is hilarious because I am talking to uh someone who has focused a lot of their career on what we have to lose. However, as you were doing that, I would say it's always been about muscle, and that is the focal point for health and wellness, and the smarter we get about skeletal muscle, and we bridge the gap of it just being so that we look good, but really the organ of longevity, then we're going to be able to transform the world. I've always understood the importance of muscle with regard to longevity and metabolic health, right? And not breaking a hip when you're 70 years old, and being able to pick up your grandchild when you're 80 years old. That part has always made sense, but when you start getting into things like cognitive decline and beating cancer if you have enough muscle, this is something not just the average bear isn't making a connection on, but as we've just discussed, the vast majority of the medical community. Can you explain the connection there, right? So, I'm thinking I've got an Alzheimer's gene, I've got Parkinson's in the family. What is muscle going to have to do with that? Does it which show me the connect the dots. Yes. Um first of all, I love that you're actually willing to have a conversation about muscle and reorient ourselves when we think about what muscle does. So, skeletal muscle, yes,

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muscle does. So, skeletal muscle, yes, we've already identified it as this organ system for being strong and being powerful and being fit. This is one small piece of which or of which muscle is responsible for. But even more importantly, skeletal muscle is number one, your metabolic sink. The carbohydrates that you eat, the fuels that you ingest, when we are seeing issues with glucose, insulin, fatty acids, elevated triglycerides, we are eating mismatched to our muscle health. Muscle is the primary site for glucose disposal. At rest, healthy muscle burns fatty acids. It is an amino acid reservoir, so you had mentioned cancer. One of the things that kills people with cancer is cancer cachexia, rapid muscle wasting. Right. What is individual to outlive the treatment, I've seen you talk about. Like if you have enough muscle, you can survive the process of killing the cancer. If you ask me, nothing is more important. And and even if you think about your brain, roughly 30 to 40% of your brain is responsible for movement. If we do not train our muscle, then when we think about twofold what happens to the brain, and I have seen data that those that engage in resistance training will help protect the brain from atrophy. I mean, that in and of itself, but also skeletal muscle, if you do not want to

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skeletal muscle, if you do not want to have metabolic disease, you must have healthy skeletal muscle. And if Alzheimer's is type 3 diabetes of the brain, it doesn't start in the brain. It starts in the periphery. And that's muscle. Okay, so the first thing is what I might take notes while you're talking so I don't interrupt you like I almost did. What does atrophy of the brain actually mean? Cuz it's not a muscle, so what does that mean? Like dead spots where you don't have blood vessels or And when you say type 3 diabetes, can you explain to people what does that mean? What does that mean when we're talking about brain health? So, first thing, what is atrophy of the brain? It means your brain shrinks. Got it. And one of the early studies that I worked on was looking at the relationship between body composition and brain function. And one of the things that we saw was those that had a wider waistline had lower brain volume. Wow. Okay, and and the mechanism for that would be circulation, or you're using the brain to move the body, or we don't actually know, we just see it, Yeah. and it's related. There are there's a multitude of reasons as to why I believe that to be true. And one of the things that we know is that the brain becomes insulin resistant just like the body. Got it. And when the brain gets insulin resistant, a whole host of problems happen, similarly to what we see in the periphery. And that, so for example, if you are insulin resistant, then you have high levels of blood glucose. If you are insulin resistant, you are dealing with

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insulin resistant, you are dealing with um a it's almost not metabolically healthy. And this isn't the perfect way to say it, but the brain is um struggling from a healthy metabolic milieu. And I got it. When we think about Alzheimer's, again, the brain and the body are not that different. What is good for one thing is also good for the other. So, if we have insulin resistance of our periphery, we will inevitably at some point get insulin resistance in our brain. And when that happens, you know, you hear about all kinds of of things that then come into play, whether it is tau proteins, and there's a whole host of things that I don't think that we know exactly, uh because Alzheimer's is a very big, obviously a a big field, but Yeah. that we know for sure is metabolic dysfunction of the periphery deeply affects the brain. Can you give me a case study, for example, of a person that you have taken from A to Z, right? They They aren't exercising. I'm guessing they're probably on 12 different medications. They probably have type 2 diabetes. They're probably on, you know, the statins, the whole thing, insulin, the whole thing, whatever. Give me a real-life example of somebody you've taken with this plan from start to finish. What does it look like? What can they expect? What happens? Okay, well, first of all, I think that your audience, they're very interested in health. Is that fair to say? I hope so. It's been leaning a little political in

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It's been leaning a little political in the last couple of years, but I certainly hope so. And there's unquestionably a Venn diagram where those two things intersect, which is unfortunate, but it is the way of the world. So, one would say I certainly hope so. Okay, well assume that again, health doesn't matter how you're politically leaning. In order to really be able to show up, you've got to be healthy. Right. And there's a number of ways to do this, but I'm going to give you an example of a patient I just had today. When she came to me, she had a cholesterol over 400. She was actually eating a very high-fat diet, but still exercising. And she was terrified of carbohydrates. Again, and this is the most easiest patient because I actually just came out of clinic. So, this I just saw this patient. She was terrified of carbohydrates. She was um extremely restrictive and falling prey to a lot of, I think, fads out there. so many questions for you about that, but keep going. And like I could even pull up her chart if I wanted to even be more exact. Okay. But, um so there was a a handful of things and she was 50. So, she is 50 and this is before starting hormones when I got her, before doing any of these other things. And you would look to her and you'd go, "Okay, well, you're doing everything right. You're tracking or you think that you're tracking appropriately." And when we got down to the nuts and bolts of it, uh her blood markers were not good. She had elevated triglycerides, elevated glucose, elevated insulin. She

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glucose, elevated insulin. She essentially had, quote, metabolic syndrome. Uh which I would say is an indication of unhealthy muscle and not necessarily an indication of just obesity. We've been working together almost, uh actually longer than 6 months. And I'm going to tell you what happened. First thing we did is we addressed the thing that everybody does. Everybody eats. Yep. No problem with it, right? Yep. had to go back to that. And what was interesting is she was on this very high-fat keto diet. And for her genetics, it was not a fit. High-fat keto diets can be useful in many different domains, but it wasn't for her. Okay. We had to reorient her to a higher protein diet. And that was closer to 1 g per pound per ideal body weight, which since she's been with me, she's lost over 20 lb. Uh she's currently 121 lb. And we reoriented her about 120 g of protein. We actually added in carbohydrates and we reduced her fat. Her primary macronutrient was fat. And now her blood cholesterol is normal. Her glucose is normal. Her insulin is normal. She's lost over 20 lb. She's stronger and fitter than she ever has. And of course, Jillian, this is just one person. Yep. Right? Um there's many different ways in which someone could utilize the playbook. And the playbook is the book that I had wanted from the beginning. So, I wrote the book that I had wanted. It doesn't

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the book that I had wanted. It doesn't matter where you start. It doesn't matter what nutrition plan you are on. And if you believe muscle is the organ of longevity, then you have to eat for it and you have to train for it. And there's a whole host of other things, but really simply, we really just modified her nutritional habits. And uh obviously adjusted her training and worked on her mind. She's in the best place that she's ever been in. Here's where I'm at with regard to my opinion on nutrition. And I want you to correct me and be savage. I've come to the conclusion that you don't want to overeat, but if you're eating the right foods, inherently, you won't do that. You want to use common sense with your food choices, which would mean eating food in its most whole and natural form. Seems like protein and fiber is pretty much a win across the board. Uh try to avoid ultra-processed foods. And that to me it seems like that's a winner. Now Now, am I wrong? Attack me. What are the Hit me with the whole Hit me with the horns here. This is what I've taken away from all these years. my style. First of all, not my style. I I like it though. It's okay. I want to do it. I want to know where I'm getting it wrong. No. So, definitely not my style, but what I will tell you is that um if we look at what people are doing. So, if we look at the healthy eating index, if we were to examine what people are actually doing, the majority

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people are actually doing, the majority of people are eating, you know, 98% more ultra-processed foods, sugars, and junk than they should be. Right? We're totally overeating it. The majority of people, according to the data, are under-eating um fruits and vegetables. Yeah. one fruit is banana. Our number one vegetable is uh I guess potato would be a root vegetable. Potato in the form of potato chips. Our, quote, fruit or vegetable, wherever you categorize tomato, is in tomato sauce or ketchup. Oh, ew. reality is where we are, yeah, totally gross. And the number one uh cause of saturated fat in our diet, do you know what it is? Gosh, honestly, I no. Pizza. Yeah. We eat pizza. Yeah. You know, I and I just want to say that because the conversation um is, you know, how do we decrease our protein and and do all these other things, but when reality hits, the reality is we are eating junk and we are eating pizza and we are eating uh pastries and sandwiches. So, now that we know what we're actually doing, Yeah. then how do we think about what we are doing? So, humans love novelty. And when I say love novelty, there has been the fen-phen diet, the lucky diet, which is smoking, the grapefruit diet, the cabbage soup diet, you name it. We've

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cabbage soup diet, you name it. We've had it. And humans love novelty. But, if you actually look at the data, the intake of protein is roughly anywhere from 15 to 20%. It has been for as long as we've been tracking. Because humans have a biological drive, it's called the protein leverage hypothesis, to eat towards a certain amount of protein. Which I think is fascinating because no matter what you are putting in front of us, at some point we will fall off the wagon or we will continue to eat processed foods to get to those amino acids. Wow. And so, I say this because I think that you you guys like a little science. And how do we Oh, yeah. science? Well, we have to think about, okay, well, what are people actually doing? Rather than I'm going to come in here and say, "Listen, I've been doing this for 17 years. This is why you should listen to me." This is not the truth at all. This is not why you should listen to me. What you should do is you should go back and we should look at what the science says and what we're actually doing. So, this protein leverage hypothesis is that individuals will drive towards a certain amount of protein. And as we're adding in all these processed foods, the body will continue to feed to look for this. So, what what you said about protein, do should we eat unprocessed foods and increase protein? Yes. And there is a reason as to why we are driven to feed. And I got more for you as to why, but I just I I wanted to kind of lay that out there because I think it's important. Otherwise, we're just going to keep chasing novelty. Right. Do you think we chase novelty because we're

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you think we chase novelty because we're looking for some sort of magic bullet? And I myself I have even have questions for you. I myself I'm like, is it HRT? Is it this new SLUPP peptide? Is it There's some sort of something for We think that there's this fountain of youth. And I know, focus on the big rocks. Move your body. Eat with common sense. Sleep. But still, doc, I don't want to go Okay, and then can you tell me about what do you think about those peptide? Like, what is that? Well, HRT, you see, we've had two real major health disasters. Well, we've had a handful of of major health disasters. Okay. One was the food guide pyramid. So, this was the biggest social experiment that went wrong, right? And like food guide pyramid came in, we all became obese and there's diabetes, all these these issues. Yeah. Other was the conversation around hormones, which whether it's the Women's Health Initiative or why um testosterone replacement therapy went down and how we castrated men for like 30 years because people thought that testosterone caused prostate cancer. Uh-huh. And you know, a handful of major mishaps. Uh hormones and the food guide pyramid, if I were to pick the two, those are two that we really made some massive mistakes on. You know, uh I don't know if you're friendly with him or not or what you think of him, but Dr. Attia has said the Women's Health Initiative was one of the most bungled things in medicine

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things in medicine and it's just devastating. Oh, totally. And yes, I I was just with Peter. I did a round table a strength episode for women and it was really focused a bit on muscle. Yeah. But yes, so so the Women's Health Initiative, but this is a perfect example of how as humans we don't necessarily question and um we just run with something. So, the data has always been there. People just didn't ask or they didn't look. And then they believed that hormone replacement therapy has been all wrong. Same thing happened with men and testosterone. Um you know, the guy that brought testosterone replacement therapy to the modern-day era, his name is Abe Morgentaler, and he is a Harvard-trained urologist. And so, I just going to give you this quick story. Please. Because people won't know this, but basically up until 19, I don't know,' 30s, in the mid -' 30s, people were using hormone replacement, and they were using testosterone. In the the' 30s? Yeah, for men and women. Yeah. Ooh. Okay, hold on. Can I ask real quick, forgive me. What form? Like like pregnant horse urine? No idea. They used it. Okay. Got you. We don't know, but they were doing it. I mean, somebody knows, but I personally don't know. Understood. I'm I'm with you. Okay. Yeah. So, um and then this one you know, OG, I think he won a This guy, I think he won a Nobel Prize. But anyway, he said that and published that

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anyway, he said that and published that testosterone gives people prostate cancer. All the other doctors followed suit. They started castrating men. You know? Literally. Balls off, yes. Or their testicles, I should be professional, I'm a doctor. And um You get a pass on that one, doc. It's it's relatable. We can say balls, it's okay. Um so, I just want to, you know, we have a mutual friend in common. Uh Danica Patrick is a very dear friend of mine. I know. You She's your her doctor. I know. She sings your praises. She's incredible. And so, I was She was like, you know, she swears a lot. And I was like, all right, well, then she's going to encourage me to swear. Yeah. I won't talk about that. We'll do that in private. But anyway, so they started castrating men. Good god. Nobody asked the question. And so, this one guy who went to Harvard, Abe Morgentaler, was like, I don't understand. I studied testosterone in lizard brains, and when you gave them testosterone, the women got hornier, the men got hornier, like everybody like and these were obviously rodent models or or reptiles, they were animal models, but everything seemed to get better. And he couldn't connect the dots. And so, he would start to see these patients that had low testosterone, and he started to give them testosterone. And his colleagues were like, you are going to kill people. You are going to be responsible for killing these people. And he just he couldn't make sense of it. So, you have this whole cohort of doctors saying that this is what happens, and that you should not use testosterone because it's bad, and we know it's bad and with so

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bad, and we know it's bad and with so much conviction. And so, what did he do? He went to the basement of Harvard and pulled out those old dusty papers. And he pulled out the study. The study that had nobody had bothered to go back at, that had changed the landscape for men and women of testosterone. Men and women? Uh yeah, I mean, it was mostly men, but men and women. I mean, they seemed to follow suit. And it was based on one patient with an outdated test that they no longer used because it was not dependable. They were wrong. Wow, that's insane. were wrong. Talk to me about with with TRT. So, we have common sense, don't eat ultra-processed foods, we're leaning into protein, and I want to get into use I think you said a gram per pound of body weight. Yeah. Okay. Now, what if I'm 100 lbs overweight? Then what am I doing? Am I still eating that much protein? No. I mean, again, we have to look at what is your goal? Where do you want to go to? Right. I see. pounds overweight? You and I both know how hard it is to get protein, right? But you know from your days of you know, being like the OG in in the fitness space, that dietary protein is what is going to protect muscle. And by the way, I bet you when it started being so controversial about dietary protein, you were probably surprised. Uh no, I wasn't. I was actually wrong. You know who gave me an ass-whooping was

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You know who gave me an ass-whooping was Layne Norton. You know why? and I trained with Layne. He Layne it it gave me such an ass-kicking, and the reason that I went down that rabbit hole of we don't need that much protein, there's so many, I don't even know where to begin. First of all, what is it, the American Dietetic Association has like an infinitesimal amount of necessary dietary protein. There were studies that it was causing brittle bones. There were studies that it was hurting your kidneys. There were longevity doctors talking about how all these amino acids floating around the body that you're not using because you're not working out can be harmful and can prevent you from getting into autophagy of cleaning up dead and senescent tissue, and you don't want I I actually started to take the bait on that one big time. I'd say about 9 years ago, and I was I don't want to name names, but the these are PhDs. You know, when Layne was like, you're an [__] I was like, hey, listen, you're calling me an [__] but there's this PhD, that PhD, this MD, that MD, this one with the bit Yeah. And you know, he we went through study I'll never forget it. I There's like three podcasts. We went study by study, and I felt exceptionally stupid. And then it was Dr. Rhonda Patrick, Dr. Peter Attia, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, and I I thought like how did I get so misled though? Because it wasn't as though I came up with this on my own, doc. This was other PhDs and

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on my own, doc. This was other PhDs and other doctors saying this stuff. So, here's the problem. Um so, by the way, Layne and I trained at the University of Illinois together. We were mentored at the same time. We are mentored, and I am still mentored and trained by his PhD advisor, who's Dr. Donald Layman. Unbelievable. It's a small world. And um when you think about it, there are not that many world-class protein researchers. No. There's probably four. And Don Layman is hands-down one of them. So, we know that leucine, which is one of the amino acids, affects skeletal muscle. He is in a large part responsible for that and the amount of protein that we need to affect muscle health. The guy is legendary. And what Layne and I both started to see was all this misinformation. All this misinformation coming out about protein, and it's actually re-emerging now. It is re-emerging now. We are seeing this backlash of you're eating too much protein, and you should eat, you know, go more plant-based. The reality is we should all eat more fruits and vegetables. Of course. that a plant-based diet is going to solve uh our problems is totally incorrect. It's just wrong. And um a lot of these scientists are not trained in nutritional sciences. No. not. But when you look at the data, again, when you look at the data, um you know, right now we're looking at the RDA, which is which, you know, they're

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RDA, which is which, you know, they're redoing it. Hopefully we're going to see It's it's nothing. It's so small. It I can't even I can't recall exactly cuz I've I've wiped the information from my brain cuz it's so useless and detrimental. But it was something tiny. I'd pull it up right now, but I remember it being you. So, it's 0. 8 g per kg. And the reality is 0. 8 g per kg um is nothing. It's 0. 37 g per pound. And this was put together, I think it's by the McGovern Committee in the I don't know, a long time ago. You can look up Maybe it was the' 70s, maybe it was before that. But basically, it was a staff house writer who was trained in economics at the time. He's like a 30-some - year-old kid. Didn't know anything about nutrition, and he was really very plant-based like at this time, and you guys can look it up. And so, someone said, go write these you know, write this up, and he wrote it up, and that's what he put in there, and they put 10% saturated fat, which was genius because it allows us to weaponize our foods, by the way. So, if we believe that 10% that we should only believe eating 10% saturated fat, then it wipes out nearly all animal foods from the diet as being healthy. For example, an egg has 18% saturated fat. You and I both know that an egg is high in choline, uh fat-soluble vitamins. It is a biological a very bioavailable source of dietary protein. However, based on 10%

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dietary protein. However, based on 10% saturated fat, this is never going to be considered a quote healthy food. Right. It was the root of all evil. I I Do you mind if I ask you real quick in a quick segue? Yeah. You mentioned, since you brought up the egg, your your client, your patient who was eating a ton of fat, had exceptionally high cholesterol. Okay. Now, there's so Oh my god. The I have interviewed everyone from Dr. Arthur Agatston to Layne himself. Yeah. All right. And then you got people in the zeitgeists, I don't want to name names, they're like, don't even worry about dietary cholesterol. It's not the same as serum cholesterol. It's never going to be an issue. But it isn't Correct me if I'm wrong here. It isn't necessarily the dietary cholesterol, but there is some element element of a huge amount of saturated fat that can elevate cholesterol. What is your take on this? Cuz it's it's so complicated, I just say go to your doctor and get a calcium score. So, and I would say get a a clearly scan so it's hard and soft plaque. And what what I will tell you is two things. When calories are controlled, the chances are the saturated fat amount doesn't necessarily matter. Calories are controlled and you are not part of the maybe 20% of the population that doesn't do well on saturated fat. Right? So, there is a that means the majority of the people and you know,

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majority of the people and you know, there are it's there are variations within that percentage, but the majority of people, if calories are controlled, saturated fat, which the body makes, will likely not be a problem. Right. It's when you overeat it. Right. However, if you are over consuming calories and you're over consuming calories in saturated fat, carbohydrates, processed foods, this will become a problem. That's what Agatston says. And he also says there's a genetic predisposition in certain people There's a genetic predisposition, but we are making uh you know, global recommendations. Not global, I mean really we make recommendations for us, but we are making uh blanket recommendations Right. for the entire population. And so, you know, for our population. So, how do we really begin to think about it? To say that LDL cholesterol doesn't matter, I'm a physician, I don't agree with that. LDL cholesterol, in my opinion, and apoB, and there's a number of other markers, it matters. It would be very flippant for me to say this this number doesn't matter. It probably matters more to some people than it does to others, which is why um you know, I think that the nutrition plan that I have put forth with my colleagues like uh Dr. Don Lehman and Lane Norton, you know, he's cited in my books as well. The reality is if we are prioritizing for body composition and calories are controlled,

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composition and calories are controlled, then I don't think the evidence supports issues with your choice variations in diet. Got it. But, you have to recognize that there are foundational protocols. And you have to make protein decisions first. Protein decisions are based on age, physical activity, metabolic health, and personal decision. Once you get your protein number, then you can decide pick or choose. Do you want carbohydrates or do you want fat? That was my next question. So, there's a there's essentially a a formula in the book that allows you to determine, hence my, you know, initial question of what if I'm 100 lbs overweight, who are you, what's your goal, what are your genetics, so on and so forth. There's a way to get your personal protein prescription. I got it. Right. That makes perfect sense. um but I love that you're having all these people on and um you know, I think that we have to get down to the basics of what is important for human health. And here's how we solve for this. Are you ready, Jillian? Yeah. If you buy my argument that muscle is irreplaceable and this is the organ of longevity, period end of story. You will survive nearly all cause mortality, nearly anything that is going to kill you, you will survive better if you have healthy muscle. If you believe that at the root of obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer's, the list goes on, is healthy skeletal muscle, because healthy obesity and all these diseases

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healthy obesity and all these diseases are in part symptoms of dysregulated skeletal muscle. And mark my words, what's going to happen is that body fat is going to come out as um an important biomarker, but not the most important. I am you heard it here. I believe in the next 5 to 10 years people are going to start recognizing intermuscular adipose tissue as the primary driver for insulin resistance and all of these other diseases. Said simply, your muscle should look like a filet, not a Wagyu steak. When it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give people things that they'll love. Beautiful, timeless pieces that they'll wear for years. And that's one of the reasons I go with Quince. Everything's premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. Quince has something for everybody, whether it's silk tops and skirts for dressing up, perfectly cut denim for everyday wear, outerwear that actually keeps you warm and looks good. Their Italian wool coats, they're standout pieces. They're beautifully tailored, incredibly soft, and they're crafted to last for seasons. Every piece is made with premium materials from ethical, trusted factories, and they're priced far below what other luxury brands charge. The craftsmanship, it shows in every detail, from the stitching to the fit and the drape. It's elevated, timeless, and made to wear on repeat. I personally am obsessed with their super soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters. For only 50 bucks, they look and feel amazing.

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they look and feel amazing. Guys, find gifts so good, you're going to want to keep them with Quince. Go to quince. com / jillian for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's q u i n c e. com / jillian to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince. com / jillian Of course. And that disease begins when your muscle looks like a Wagyu steak before you get gain body fat, before any of these other things. So, now let's circle back to the question on does saturated fat matter? Yeah, saturated fat matters, but if we are orienting ourselves to eating for muscle health, then the decisions become very easy. Which is one reason why even if someone is eating a high-fat diet, and let's say that maintains their muscle mass. Okay, fine. So, say it's um muscle sparing. Let's just say they have ketones and they they been able to spare their muscle. To me, that is not optimal. We're not looking to not just be worse than yesterday. It's coming for it's coming aging is coming for all of us. It's coming. It's like tax day. Sure is, man. This little patch of gray hair right there that just I'm like, really? And the eyes go I've had gray hair since I was 16. So, I'm But the reality is if we orient ourselves in these conversations of be more plant-based, eat high-fat diet, eat carnivore, like all these other conversations, Right. great. Decide what works for you, but

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great. Decide what works for you, but recognize that muscle is your priority and eating for that will determine everything else. And so then we can all fight less Yep. and agree more and take action, because at the end of the day, I want a strong country. I am in it because I believe that we can be stronger and more resilient. Period end of story. But there's only one way to not be that. And that's to not train. To not take responsibility for your own health and wellness. And you know, no one else can do it for you. And so we've got to get these pieces right if we want to show up as the best version of ourselves, and I know it's not always easy, but humans are totally predictable. And if you can talk yourself out of it, you can totally talk yourself into it. Of course. If I'm a person that's intimidated by resistance training, in the book, do you tell me where to start? Is there a prescription for fit Because like I love Peter, but some of the crap in his book I can't do. Oh, a dead hang for No, 2 years. I'm like, oh my gosh. It's like some of it is just I he's brilliant, but he's also a bit it's very tough for the average person to take that on. Some of those things that that he does or he says we should be able to do when you, you know, can't run a 5K. You know, you haven't been off the couch. If you're telling me, hey listen, you know, don't want to be eating a bunch of crap, don't eat a bunch of processed foods.

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don't eat a bunch of processed foods. They're already like, oh my god, it's so hard. Guess what? You got to work out. We you got to lift weights. We both know there's the pushback. And I have gone from the person that demanded so much from people to like, hey, let's get you off the couch and have a step goal. And I hate myself for it, but I don't Doc, I'm like I got to get I like I'm meeting them where they're at. And where they're at is way behind the eight ball. Right. What are you telling these people that have no freaking idea, haven't lifted a weight in a gazillion years, and they go for a walk every night with a dog for 15 minutes? Okay, Jillian, here's the first thing. People have been lifting weights their entire life. Do you lift a suitcase? Do you get groceries? Do you pick up a toddler? Do you lift anything? Just because it isn't in the form of a kettlebell, doesn't mean that you haven't been lifting. Right. You know, when I talk to patients in our practice, you know, and I hear these some of these women talk and they say, well, you know, Doc, I've never lifted weights. I'm like, uh no, that's not true. Do you ever So, you never pick up your 40-lb toddler? And they're like, Doc, no, I pick up my toddler all the time, all day long. The truth is is we have been lifting weights our whole life. Maybe they don't have a structured training program, but it's all this narrative about why they can't and and I get it, but it's just not true. And so,

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just not true. And so, in the book, you can do this training program at home. It is for beginners and you can scale it up. All you need are some bands and maybe a couple dumbbells. And it is for again, beginners, people that have never lifted weights, and uh feel very intimidated. And also, movements that create getting your body ready. And I will say one more thing. Friends out there, you cannot wait till you are motivated. It is not going to happen. For me, I've been lifting for 30 years, and I know that I'm training tomorrow, I'm already bitching about it in my mind. And I just can't wait. I So, my my trainer, Carlos Malat, he just he he'll wait for my text. I guarantee you I'm going to be bitching about it in 2 more hours. It's going to happen. But, that's just an exercise. Doesn't matter. I still I'm going to do it. And the less you wait for yourself to become inspired to do it. Yeah. Um and again, and I I think that in the book I do have a a mental component because, you know, as I sat down to write this book, I was thinking, "Okay, there's a million different diet books out there, and there's a million different training books out there. And there's books on how to recover. And by the way, I've got tons of recipes in this book. I've like 60-plus recipes and lots of pictures. But, I sat down and I'm like, "Well, what what's the disconnect?" And I realized that the perfect plan, training plan, eating plan, can be as

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training plan, eating plan, can be as perfect as ever, but if you cannot make the mental connection, Yes. Oh my gosh. going to matter. And so, in this book, I I teach people how to do that because that's actually where it starts. So, how to think is the first chapter because unless you nail that, then it's never going to happen. And again, human beings are totally predictable, and we set goals for ourselves, and then we fail on these goals. But, if we change our perspective, and we set standards for ourselves, then we don't fail our own standards. Right. Of course. You know, that's been the number one problem with regard to helping people lose excess body fat and keep it off. The lose part is always easy. You know, you can get them there. 95% of the people that lose it though will put it back on, and it's cuz it's just not clicking. And for years, well, what are we going to spend? Two decades in therapy? See if that works? Or and all the odds are stacked against them with the misinformation and the fad diets and all these things at at the computer all day long, they're sitting all day long. That is such a vital component. You're right. Is is getting your brain in a place where you're ready to commit to the basic It's not complicated. What you're talking about is pretty simple, but no one said it was easy. Well, we got to maintain muscle, want to put on muscle, want to maintain it, want to eat, you know, common sense. It It's

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to eat, you know, common sense. It It's not that freaking complicated. You don't have to be a PhD to understand what you're asking of people. But, well, you got to be a PhD to figure it out. But, so much noise, Jillian. There's so much noise in this space that even you, if you think you're a professional, got completely wrapped up. And now, so I look at some of this data, and you remember Atkins? You remember that? Oh, heck yeah. Oh my gosh. Of course. Doesn't go away. Just reskins itself. No, so this OG sold 10 million copies of his book through his career. At the peak, he had one in 11 Americans on his diet. Okay, you ready for it? Now, Sky is a world-class doctor. Now, you go on TikTok I would love a TikTok. God knows I need it. You go on TikTok and you have an influencer spreads information, has the same impact a legacy doctor does in 10 days. The velocity at which information spreads is undeniable. And the challenge is it becomes so confusing for someone who is untrained. People do not know who to trust and what to do. And this provides, unfortunately, a level of distraction. Yes. 100%. I don't have to do it if I'm totally distracted. But, also, people are so

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distracted. But, also, people are so confused, and they even now I patients that tell me, "You know, but this doctor said don't eat red meat because that causes heart disease." And I'm like, "Yo, uh red meat uh consumption has been down. It's like down 40% since the 1970s, and I don't see heart disease getting any better." Right. And you know, so Yeah. I can appreciate that it's hard, but the reality is even more now, people have to come become extremely aware of where they are getting information. Otherwise, um it's going to be a real challenge. Talk to me a little bit about peptides. So, I I mentioned this, you know, we obviously have all the weight loss peptides. And again, from what I take away is this dose is so massive, it essentially crashes people's metabolism, causes muscle wasting. I would imagine for you that is apocalyptic. Am I wrong? And um Yeah. We don't have to agree. Let's start with am I wrong? Let's Let's go there. What So, what do you think of these things then? Cuz I I've had my arm twisted to a place where I'm like, "Okay, if it's a life-or - death intervention, if you've tried everything, if you're morbidly obese, like, okay." But, I would still default to a a microdose. But, I mean, this is you. This is No, that's my answer. I It's fine. I'm happy we're going to disagree on something. You're going to be happy cuz you like bringing the heat. Okay, tell me. I Tell me. Okay. You like them.

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Okay. You like them. I believe in two things. Okay. I believe, well, number one, that people should have physical autonomy. Of course. And they can do whatever they want to do. And as long as it doesn't, quote, hurt them, that they should be able to choose. Number one. Of course. So, if someone wants to go on a peptide, they should be able to go on a peptide. Number two. If we look at the data, roughly 74% of Americans are either overweight or obese. It is staggering. And the majority of people are not exercising. So, we have a real problem. Whatever we've been doing for the last 50 years or more has not worked. It just hasn't worked. So, I ran a So, part of my job as a fellow was to run a weight management clinic at WashU. And I did this for 2 years. And we did not you know, at the time, these drugs were only approved for um type 2 diabetes. They weren't approved for weight loss. Right. These people suffered so badly that I mean, it wasn't success. It was a lot of failures a lot of the time. When GLP-1s came on the market, available now um to be used for weight loss, we are seeing something so transformative for people that it's

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so transformative for people that it's unreal. Hold on now. Which is wonderful, right? We have a major major obesity problem. But, now what's happening, if I just told you that we have a huge portion of the population is either overweight or obese, and they are sedentary, and now we can treat the obese you know, the obese part, yet we have never addressed the foundation of what the real problem is, which is muscle. We are now trading one epidemic for another. That's exactly. We are trading obesity for sarcopenic obesity. And there is no physician that is prepared to deal for that. They're not prepared to deal with that. Peter Attia said that. He He said that like he wouldn't even put someone on it until he does a DEXA scan. And there was even I I can't recall cuz it was years ago, but I think it was with Megan Kelly, and he gave an interview where he said he's actually seeing people's body fat percentage go up even though they're getting smaller. So, the reality is But, the reality is now there's a double-edged sword here, right? So, the reality is from the data that I have seen, GLP-1s, which by the way, we use in our clinic. it. I get it. Cuz would it not be a cost-benefit analysis though? Or Or are you titrating these things? Of course. Well, see, why is no one talking about that? We titrate it. We also have anabolic agents that are FDA-approved, or you know, we'll use testosterone. We will use things to make sure that their muscle is maintained.

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sure that their muscle is maintained. However, what what we have to recognize is there is not something inherently uh caustic to skeletal muscle from these GLP-1s. Okay. Bad behaviors. And I would argue that we're going to start to see more and more data that this improves intermuscular adipose tissue. Which, Jillian, that is the new biomarker. The new biomarker that we need to be paying attention to is intermuscular adipose tissue. It's the fat within the muscle. You know, you've got linemen that are healthy simply by the fact that they're moving their body and moving their muscle, doesn't matter if their body composition is changing or they're losing weight or not. Just the act of exercising and I'm going somewhere with this. Just the act of exercising, of emptying the tank of glycogen, and using the fuel in muscle, you're already becoming healthier. I believe that these GLP-1s affect that intermuscular adipose tissue. So, not the athlete's paradox, the the fat that is used for fuel around the mitochondria, but the fat that is in the skeletal muscle, you know, um that is deposited there because it's unhealthy because it has nowhere to go. Got it. These GLP-1s, I believe, improve and we're going to start seeing more and more data that these GLP-1s can improve this intermuscular it's called IMAT, this intermuscular adipose tissue. However, um so I want to be clear. I I think there's a lot of mistake these don't affect skeletal muscle because you're using a GLP-1. You're affecting skeletal muscle because Because you're not eating. You're not

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Because you're not eating. You're not eating at all and you're not exercising. Right, of course. So you're losing Well, with any weight loss regimen, you're going to lose a certain percentage of muscle, but it seems like what would be healthy is maximum 25% of your weight loss is lean mass, but then on these it could be Lustig said I think he was seeing upwards of 60% of it. Yeah, and I actually got a lot of heat on this, which is interesting. So if we think about sarcopenia, which is a decreased muscle mass and function, sarcopenia is about 4% per decade. 4% loss per decade. Wow, okay. an individual goes on a GLP-1 and loses, you name it, 14% of their weight loss is skeletal muscle or more, 50%. I mean that it's it all depends on the person. Then, in my mind, again, I got a lot of heat, but I'm a geriatrician by training, so we've seen sarcopenia that if sarcopenia is 4% per decade of muscle loss and people are losing double that on a GLP-1 and we know that the majority of people after 2 years go off of them, right? You are now left with a frail a self. But see then, Doc, okay, you and and I'm not sure if you're familiar with Brigham

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not sure if you're familiar with Brigham Buhler, but he does the same thing with the patients at his clinic. He'll micro dose GLP-1, they'll put them on some sort of growth factor, IGF, whatever, this that the other. And he's got this Molotov cocktail with a team of geniuses that are tweaking, monitoring 24 / 7. How I mean this is not like the average bear. This is they're getting the pen, doses insane. There's nobody like you titrating up, titrating down, putting other stuff in there to try to maintain muscle, making sure they're exercising at the same time. Hey, look at it. So Yeah. Basically like I'm the average person and I'm buying the Forever Strong Playbook today. Am I buying this book and I if I'm 50 years old, I'm starting TRT, HRT, I'm going on a Molotov cocktail? In the book, do you talk about these things and make recommendations so I know if I'm a candidate for this stuff? Or if so, how to talk about it with my doctor? Now, this book if you are going to be going on these, whatever you call it, mocktail, cocktail, whatever it is, this book will have you covered. Again, I've been training for over a decade. This is the playbook that I wanted. Whether you are on a GLP-1, whether you are on a hormone replacement therapy, which by the way, people are going to be really upset in 5 years when

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going to be really upset in 5 years when they've been on hormone replacement therapy and their body composition has not changed. Ladies. Cuz they're not exercising, right? If you don't exercise, it doesn't do nada. It's a combination. Right. It's a combination. You've got to get it right and it's possible because the science exists. Mhm. It does. So if you're going to pick up this playbook, which by the way is visual, has recipes, I mean I'll I'll you know, you saw it. It's it's Awesome. I'm proud of it. be. Yeah, of course. say that lightly and if anyone knows me personally, I'm the last person to be like, I'm proud of something. I'm usually like, nope, not good enough. But this book is so easy and it's evidence-based and it removes the noise. It tells you how to eat, how to move, how to think, how to recover. Um you know, it's it is set to get maximum results and avoid all of the noise. So whatever on the periphery, whatever kind of distraction somebody wants to get involved with, that's fine, but you always have to come back to the fundamentals. It's it's required and I got to say, listen, aging is inevitable. But the reality is strength is a responsibility. Yeah. Not a luxury. Right. of course. If I was to give you I hate these questions, so forgive me,

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I hate these questions, so forgive me, but but people love them and the reason I say I hate them is cuz they're you'll see in just a moment. Oh god, don't was one trend me to the wall. No, here's what I mean. They'll say to me, if I only get one exercise for the rest of my life. I'm like, well, that's ridiculous. If you asked a doctor to do a quadruple bypass and you give him one tool, that patient's going to die. But it if I was to make it something that could remotely make sense, if there's one health trend that you find deeply alarming and you'd say avoid it all costs, which one would that be? So this is tough. So if it's one trend Or top three. I'll give you three. Okay. I'll give you three. Ooh, this is hard. One I know, that's why I hate these, but I can't help but ask you. Cuz I actually am inherently curious of what is sounding the alarm bell for you at a fever pitch. I think the idea that someone could eat a low protein diet. I think it is so detrimental. Yeah. And so I mean I had this one woman, she was 74 years old. She came to see me speak and she whispered in my ear. She's like, Doc, do you think it's okay if I go plant-based? And I was like, um well, you're 74 years old. How many calories are you eating? She's like, I'm you know, maybe if I maybe I'm around 1, 000 calories. I'm like, well, do you take supplements? She's like, no, I

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take supplements? She's like, no, I can't swallow pills. You tell my grandma she go plant-based. Yeah. I I mean to me this is alarming. And I know that this is controversial and I have nothing against, you know, I was vegetarian for a long time. I have nothing against this, but we don't understand the repercussions of our actions and while something might work well for someone in midlife, in your 40s and 50s, that does not mean that it works for someone in their 60s and 70s. It didn't work well for me in in my 30s. I was anemic. I tried it multiple times cuz I hate killing things. And Same. Yeah, not for health and my dermatologist was like, your skin looks like [__] Everybody I wasn't healing properly. I was anemic. I was exhausted. Didn't work for me at 30, let alone 74. So I'm really concerned about the older population because Yeah. percent of of women, roughly 40% of women over the age of 65 are below the recommendation for dietary protein and I I just get concerned with the amount of noise out there that you know, you can always get stronger at any age, but you know, the window of opportunity can close and so knowing the right thing to do at the right time is very important. So you asked me and here I am going in some long-winded way, but No, I get it. That's a great freaking answer. I I think that that's alarming. The other thing is I think our

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alarming. The other thing is I think our kids should train. I have a 4-year - old who's training for the SEAL teams, which is hilarious. Aw. You do not discourage hard physical work. You know, we're not up there making him do PRs or whatever, but he wants to do push-ups and jump in the cold plunge, go right ahead. Are you good with cold plunge for kids? I've seen conflicting information like they can't regulate their body temperature and that you'll see Ronaldo put his kid in the cold plunge. My son asks me all the time. I'm like, I don't know. I mean I, you know, they are pretty good at getting out, you know, my kid jumps in, puts his head in, gets in there and then gets out. I mean we watch them. Okay. He seems to be living just fine with you. But again, we're not like, all right, go, stay in there, you know. Yeah, I get it. I understand, of course. I think the idea that kids shouldn't lift early, that is an outdated that's an outdated Growth plate issues, thoughts? We're out. It's false. Not, you know, kids should be training if they want to train. It should be fun and they should be training. A We are not raising children. We are raising adults. Body weight, you're talking about heavy weights in the gym. You're not worried growth plate stuff? No, I mean I again, I am not concerned. Listen, do I mean I'm not saying for the kids to do one rep maxes. Of course. Right. I think that kids can go in there and they can be lifting weights. Yeah, I got it. Okay. I mean

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it. Okay. I mean I have not seen data otherwise that has made me concerned about kids going and lifting on a hypertrophy program. Oh my god. Doc, do you realize that this is always the kind of parting like, oh, until their growth plate closes, you want to be really careful like heavy lower body weights and give give them a body weight stuff and get calisthenics and push-ups and lunges and squats and time under tension, but but don't overload them and there's no data, sure there's I haven't seen convincing data. Oh my god. We should not be allowing our children to lift weights. I have just I haven't seen it. And I'm certainly open if someone can send me some data that our kids shouldn't be lifting weights. I haven't seen it. Again, I'm not talking about one rep maxes. Sure. But it should be able to go And I think that Listen, our kids are eating uh Fruit Loops and whatever and that's okay, but if if my kid is doing push-ups with us and sprint intervals on the treadmill and lifting this kettlebell, be like, "Oh my god." Uh we our priorities are just a little wrong. It's a little, you know, health and fitness, it's so much easier to build strong habits when these kids are young than spend 40 years trying to break old ones. Of course. Okay. Is there a third one? I hope we get to the positive ones, the

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I hope we get to the positive ones, the things that everyone has to be doing. Okay, I'm going to give you those three. Your three top snacks. And then obviously I'm going to tell them they need to buy the book, but the three absolute Oh my god, don't ever I would not do that if you are older. Listen, again, there's some nuance to this. I think that if you are an older individual, I think going plant-based is terrible idea if you are someone who doesn't supplement and has trouble swallowing. Like this is not a great idea. Yeah. Number two, the idea that kids shouldn't be lifting weights beyond Again, I'm not talking about you know, being militant, but they they can lift weights. Of course. Uh number three, um the third thing that really gets under my skin. I'd like to say that sleep's important because I think it's annoying, but you got to do it. Um the the third one. I think that um I think that when we And this isn't a This is a challenging one, so I'm going to try to express it. I think that we when we focus on small components versus the big picture. So if we are only focusing on seed oils or we are only focusing on you pick the um you know, kind of like the through line. I think that misses the the forest for the trees. I think that we have to really not focus on each individual thing, but we have to really understand what is the mission and what are we trying to get to.

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trying to get to. Of course. And we need help. We're humans. And so I think that again, I don't know however you want to put that, but I think Focus on the big rocks. Don't focus on I personally I methylene blue makes no sense to me as a healthy person and maybe you disagree, but I'm like it's fish It is fish tank cleaner. Like I I just haven't even looked I just can't get past that part of it, but I know people that don't exercise, but will drink fish tank cleaner. I'm like, you guys have lost your [__] mind. You've lost your mind. right, so how do we reorient ourselves? We do the things that we have to. Right. And yeah, I think that that's really important. Okay, now the top three that you Okay, can I'm going to guess. I'm going to say obviously get your protein prescription, that's going to be number one. Am I right or wrong? Yeah. Okay. All right, number two, lift weights, but how often? Do you have like a preference? All in the book? Yeah. Got it. Uh three to four days a week and there should be a structured program. You shouldn't be going in there and winging it. Um I think that's really important. Yeah, trainer logic. It it's You don't see that though. Nobody has a trainer logic anymore. It's bizarre. You got to do it. And then the third one is um you know, I think there's a component to the human spirit that we have to really put in um you know, parts in our life that really

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you know, parts in our life that really push us. And you pick a crucible, but if you don't bring one in, it's coming for you. I love that. Because I think that the human spirit was designed to push up against hard things to grow. I think resistance is not just for muscle, I think it's for really how we are as humans. And so putting in things that you do not want to do or things that really stretch you, you should be putting those in on the regular. And I mean really stretch you. So this could be I'll give you an example. This could be uh the Bataan Death March, which is I don't know, my husband signed up for it, or the Boston Marathon or um a 50-hour event or you just pick it, but it should be something that is so challenging that it almost takes the physical aspect out because it's just so intense. And again, it could be a million different things, but something that is is really a crucible event. I completely get what you're saying and I it's a tool that I always utilize with fitness to open up a door of possibility cuz it's like I never thought I could do that, but if I could do this I bet I could do that and that. And I I couldn't agree with you more. That sort of strategic stress makes you more resilient, more thoughtful, more wise, more powerful, more confident, and more courageous, and the mores go on and on. Doug, you're wonderful. Thank you so much for giving me all of your time. Are you taking patients? Do you have a

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you taking patients? Do you have a website? Is it just the book? Like tell everybody all about you. I'll pretend like I don't know the answer. Okay, so I um again, I put all this in my book and I feel very passionate about this book and this is the Forever Strong Playbook. You can get it on Amazon and go to my website, drgabriellelyon. com. I am taking patients. Our team is taking patients and they can find that information. It's called Strong Medical, but they can find it all underneath Everything is on our website. I have an Instagram. I have a great YouTube. Jillian, you should come on my show. We've got the number three top medical show in the country. I'm not qualified to be on your show, but I would love it. I'm just asking you questions the entire time. It'd be a great time. And let's see. I I think that that is uh that's pretty much it. I'm so glad to finally meet you and I look forward to meeting you in person. We know so many of the same people um and this is long overdue. So thank you and I'm excited to have my I'm a terrible chef, so my son is fantastic and I'm start making some of those recipes. Thank you so much for having me on. Thank you so much for watching. If you enjoyed the podcast, please like, comment, subscribe, and share. And make sure to let me know what guests you want to see on in the future.