Modern longevity has no shortage of confidence. Every week brings another compound, protocol, or promise dressed in scientific language. Dr. Jonathan Schoeff’s point is simple and necessary: evidence has levels, and marketing often blurs them.
This transcript is provided for readers who want to return to the source conversation in full. Timestamp headings open the original YouTube video at that moment.
What about TB500? TB500 is even worse, way worse in Wolverine. People are literally going back and forth on social media about combining two peptides in a single delivery model like the Wolverine. So TB500 BPC57 and they're talking about well can they survive together? Who gives a rip if they don't even work period? We're bypassing these huge steps in the process and we're talking about should they be paired together? I'm more concerned of do they do anything? Okay. Yeah. And obviously, you know, as a physician, first do no harm. All right, you guys. Welcome to another episode of Habits and Hustle. And uh we have a very special guest today. Um I should also say that I know I've said this 10 times before we even started to roll, but this is Saturday, so this guy has to be really great for me to actually be doing a podcast on Saturday. His name is Dr. Jonathan Chef and he is a surgeon and a longevity expert, but a real expert, not just one who plays one on social media, which we're going to get into in a second. Um, and he could not do the podcast during the week cuz he's actually a working doctor. Yeah. The darn jobs get in the [laughter] way. Get in the way of all the fun. Exactly. Like cuz I I say all the time, you know, when I do this podcast and I have doctors who come on and I'm like, "Oh, are you practicing still?" And majority of them are like, "No, I don't practice anymore." So I'm like, "So basically, they've all just like kind of shifted or morphed into like media doctors, which I never really like, don't you have you not seen that at all?" Oh, no, I have. And I I think it's uh being new to social media uh I was completely naive to that. So there are all these narratives [snorts] that exist around the pseudo doctors, the doc fluencers, all these things that for the best I had no concept of. But
for the best I had no concept of. But when I first got on social media, you know, you get blasted with these you are this type statements and I'm like no, I'm actually not. I just I'm just a guy from Ohio, you know, and and people will I mean, that's the interesting thing about social media is they want to just box you in as quick as possible. You're one of those guys. You're a keto guy, you're a carnivore guy, you're a uh you know, you're a fasting guy, you're a muscle guy, you're a protein guy. And in reality, I look at that and I go, "No, I'm just a doctor." Right? And then we talked about that. Now, unfortunately, the word doctor, I think, is is totally abused and it's done in a I mean, [snorts] let's face it, it's done in a manipulative way. Well, 100%. Like I said to you earlier, you know, these doctors, they're a lot of them are chiropractors and then they're giving a lot of advice on a lot of things that maybe they weren't trained for. So, I'm a big like to me, you know, that's what I kind of am I try to be a little discerning. So, cuz I think there is so much noise on Instagram, which is why like when I saw you and like I follow you and I reached out to you is because I saw that you were legitimately a real doctor, you know, who actually practices and has patients and does a thing and like you just, by the way, you have a big following for someone who's barely even on social media, but that was just recently, I I would imagine. Yeah, we started this whole I called it the great social media project. So, uh, back in May of last year, yeah, I had no login or anything. And the the reality for me, what I do in the longevity space is I, you know, have clients come in every day and they would ask these questions and and a lot of them were just totally offthe-wall. Some were legitimate, but they say, I follow so - and so and this is what so - and so said. What should I do about that? And after a while, I go, you know, it it probably behooves me to get into this
probably behooves me to get into this whole social media thing. It started with really wanting to connect with my clients in the local areas. Patients. Why are you saying clients? Oh, that's a great question. My So, I look at what I do in the longevity space is very different than what I do as a surgeon. it's doctor patient. someone is ill or someone has a disease process that I'm going to fix. It just happens to be with my hands. The reason I call my clients, my patients, I guess, in my longevity practice clients is because I I play a very different role. Uh I I look at myself as a consultant uh as a health care strategist, not in the traditional doctor patient sense because one I think the world we're living in now is so disenfranchised with the the traditional medical model. You put any names you want on it, but at the end of the day, there is this public perception about doctors and apparently doctors are paid by big pharma. Doctors want to get rich. I didn't I missed that course when I was in training training when I was doing 120 hours a week doing surgery. So, um, but there again, it goes back to what I said in social media. They everybody wants to kind of lump you into a category, right? And that's because that's what social media drives. That's what it favors. The algorithm, it's binary. It's controversy. It's black and white, right? Uh, the clickbait. I didn't know what that meant. Okay. So, for me, what I do in the longevity space is very different. I'm taking a physician education, the framework that I have built through 22 years of practice and using it to redirect the course or redefine the trajectory of another human being. To me, that's very different than what's perceived as conventional doctor patient. I catch you. So to me, if if you went and and
So, so to me, if if you went and and hired a cons, you know, whatever, an interior design consultant, right? you would be their client. Yep. So, it is fundamentally and I'm all about reframing because if you get the framework wrong, the entire relationship, the entire experience is going to go sideways in my opinion. And so, as soon as, you know, as soon as people, I think, get sucked into that and they they have pre preconceived notions and and I think the medical establishment has not helped itself. [snorts] I mean, you know, the the days I I say this, the days of the doctor always being right, doctor telling you what to do. I think the American public and and really the world is disenfranchised with that model. People want to be heard, people want to be seen. And then unfortunately, at least in the US, a physician can't keep the lights on. This is real. Okay, we can play all the games, but like a primary care physician, if they're not seeing x number of people a day, they literally can't pay the bills. No one's getting rich, right? Okay. Yeah. And no one that I know personally who became a physician, spent decades of their life while everyone was having a good time, was doing it uh for um to manipulate people or to control people or all these kind of suggestions that the doctors don't care and stuff. Why else would you waste two decades of your life becoming an expert in human health and wellness? The problem is this is not excusing it but the system itself is rigged. It is I mean who controls healthcare today? It's commercial insurance. I mean true story. Okay. I do surgery anywhere from 3 to 5 days a week. And it is not uncommon at all for us to have to call what's called a peer review process to ask another person on a phone who works for the insurance company. They're
works for the insurance company. They're employed by the insurance if it's okay for us to do what in our professional judgment is best for the patient. That's the world we're living in. So the idea all the and I don't want to get too far down this rabbit hole, but the idea that the physicians have it out for the patient, I mean That's insane to me, right? Because I'm losing hours of sleep, right? With a genuine intent to try to help my fellow man. Okay. So, wait. So, you said something that was interesting. You said that you have to call the insurance company to see if they'll cover basically whatever the necessary thing. Oh, it's even better. By the way, I'll give you the whole scoop if you want. Yeah. I want So, basically, my my question Yeah. I want you to because So, if they say no, it's not covered. Do you as a doctor not do do it because they because you're not getting paid? Well, it's not about me. If the do not you, but Well, yeah. No. Because if you do the procedure, it's not covered. I'm not getting paid. But but bear in mind, who else isn't getting paid? The way bigger fish than me. See, there's a breakdown of how Yeah. Let's do this real quick. Uh hopefully we have time, but there's a breakdown about how compensation happens. And I'll speak from a surgeon's perspective. Go ahead. primary care or or in office is different but okay we deal in what are called procedural codes okay every surgery we do is defined by some numbers on a piece of paper so the insurance companies are the ones that have to approve or or if you've ever had surgery it's they'll call it a prior authorization okay yes the beauty of a prior authorization the fine print is literally this is what the fine print says prior authorization is not a guarantee of payment Think about that. Think if your profession operated in that capacity. So, I can do a surgery. This is true. It's been pre-approved by the insurance. They said, "Yeah, we'll pay for it." But
said, "Yeah, we'll pay for it." But actually, we're not going to pay for it. So, they'll come back and say, "Well, there wasn't a psyche vow done and so therefore we're not paying you." But bear in mind, this is a much bigger picture because everybody looks at the physician and goes, "Oh my gosh, it's it's all their fees and all this stuff." We're about 1% of health care cost. Okay? You still have a hospital. You still have uh multiple other physicians, care providers, uh then the actual equipment, than the actual in in surgery, you know, the actual devices or implants that we're using. All that are line all of those are line items. Okay. Yeah. And so if an insurance company comes back and says, "No, we actually we authorized it. We said in writing, good to go." But we changed our mind. Like how cool would that be if that was your business? Well, it's not I mean for the person obviously that's sarcastic. Of course, but I'm saying like So what do people do in that situation? Yeah. So there's there's a number of things. Well, this healthare system is so crazy right now. No, nobody understands it. You can have nine people, but they think they do. That's the problem. But yeah, but no, but it's and it's always it's so complicated. So nothing is ever really covered. I'm paying all this money for for my co-pays and for my monthlies to get the PPOs and all these other things. And then I'm always but but I'm still paying. Yep. Yeah. And guess who's flying on the private jet? Tell me. The insurance company CEO. I don't see too many of my doctor colleagues flying on private jets. Oh, look at the administrative cost burden, the acceleration of the administrative pool relative to physicians over time, right? The population is increasing. We could we can agree on that, I hope, right? Um, and yet the physician the absolute physician numbers in the United States is a much slower uptrend. But where the explosion occurred earlier
But where the explosion occurred earlier in the 2000s was in the administrative roles. So administration doesn't just mean a hospital CEO. Okay? Imagine this. As a physician, if I own my own practice, in order to keep to give quality patient care in a timely manner, I now have to employ some number of people that are the pre-auth experts, the actual people going back and forth with the insurance people. Yeah. And then the insurance says, "We're going to approve it." And then after you do all the work, they come back and say, "Actually, we're not going to pay you." So now those people now have to submit appeals. And you go round and round the process. So again, the administrative burden, if people want to know where their dollars are going, they are going to the administrative burden of health care that has become so outrageous. The problem was two three decades ago physicians as physicians we I think we failed. Obviously this is long before my time but um I think some physicians were were reckless. There weren't the guard rails to ensure that hey I'm being compensated fairly for my time. And there was a time probably 40 50 years ago where you kind of charge what you want and you get paid. So it created an an opening in health care cost where costs were thought to be excessive and being driven by physician choices. Oh, look at that. All these administrators come in to help control the cost. But what we forgot was the administrators themselves are a cost. Yeah, exactly. So they have not come close to managing cost containment to even justify their own salaries. But the people making millions are the insurance CEOs. They're the hospital CEOs. Those are the people that are profiting off of the efforts. And in reality, the care providers, that's physicians, that's nurse
that's physicians, that's nurse practitioners, that's nurses, that's techs, everybody collectively, we don't account for even upwards of about 10% of the total health care costs. So, where else is it going? And so, the person that suffers, so going back to your original question, what happens? You need a surgery. Okay, your leg's on fire. You come in, you see, you get seen. This is a surgery you need. Now, in most cases, that's going to be fine. But say for whatever reason, it gets denied. The insurance company says, "Nope." You, as a patient, have a couple options. First, you appeal that denial. You So, you go to bat for yourself. So, now you're fighting the same entity that you're paying probably thousands of dollars in premiums to, right? Yeah. You're begging and pleading saying I I'm living this. I'm in pain. Like I can't do this. So patients are one major piece of the the appeal process just to get surgery done on them to help them. Okay. The alternative that does exist and now as we've seen these high deductible plans and stuff, the alternative is the patient pays out of pocket. Mhm. So that's that's really and and to be honest with you, that's what happens in Canada. It's just those people come to America to get their surgery. Yeah. I'm Canadian. Well, the Yeah. So you probably know how long. Yeah. Well, you got to wait months and months to get over two years for a knee replacement. Over two years right now. Yeah. In Canada. And the Canadians are probably going to flip their lid me say that, but No, I mean it's it's cuz it's not necessary. I mean you can hobble around. Well, you can't even find a doctor. Never mind. This is one of the other problems. Even in forget about Canada. I mean it's actually in the US. No one can find a regular doctor. Nobody can like I'm in a certain you know
can like I'm in a certain you know socioeconomic place in LA and all these things. Ask me how many of my friends have a doctor. Yeah. They have concier. You can only find a concierge doctor. So unless you pay a high premium to see somebody, you're not seeing anybody potentially. Yeah. Not not potentially. It is literally what's happening. Yeah. So even to get the bare minimum, you have to be paying a premium. Well, consider look at it this way though. Um because the same criticism could be leveled against doctor. Okay. But I don't understand you. And I'll tell you why. Okay. So you're a surgeon. So you go into surgery every day Monday through Friday blah but then you also have a longevity practice like so like I don't even like so are you a concierge doctor like why both so and also by the way before you do that I need to concentrate because this is like you're very much you've got a lot of information we're doing these shots okay this is um a performance shot it has a lot of amazing neutropics like lion well this one's well this one is the original but you also I gave give you a caffeine-free option. Okay, we're going caffeine. You want caffeine? Okay, so we shake these up. This is basically a performance shot that will help you will help me focus cuz God knows I'm going to need it with you if the host falls asleep. [laughter] The the viewers are really impressed. I'll just keep talking. Yeah, I Okay, wait. We do this. We do a cheers. So Okay. here we are. Boom. I've had so many of these already today. I love them. It's good, right? Yeah, it's good. I was waiting to for you to drink it. It's very chival chivalous of you. Oh, no. It was not that chivalous. It was if you kind of like Oh. I've had a million. Oh, believe me, I've had a million of these. No, but you know how like this is Oh, you're watching to see how the the fun fact about the wellness industry is the more absurd it is and the more
the more absurd it is and the more disgusting it is, the pricier it is, right? like AG1. AG1 zero health benefit. Zero. Nothing. And it's disgusting. And people are like so proud. They're like, "Oh, yeah. Just throw it back." One of my clients was in yesterday and and um [snorts] he was telling me about this green concoction that a chef makes for him and stuff. I was like, "How?" You know, he's like, "It's just terrible." I'm like, "Why are you drinking it?" Yeah. Well, you know, I I think it's really good. It has probiotics. It has I'm like, "Take some fiber." Yeah. that works just as well. People don't like the B. People want magic, magic formulas and magic potions. The fact that AG1 has become like a billion dollar brand and it's because they have great marketing. They went to the right influencers, the right podcasts, the right this, the right that, paid great performance marketing, and now they they're like crushing it. And everybody's under the impression that they're like doing something great for their body. Yep. Cuz it tastes disgusting. It tastes disgusting and it's it's pricey, so it must be really good. And Joe Rogan does it so it must be good, right? That's literally where our brains are psychologically. So, and also like if you don't know what you don't know and it's it looks it's green, so then it psychologically you think it's healthy for you. It's gritty. So, it must come from a plant. Exactly. It must come from a plant. So, everyone's just like, you know, drinking the Kool-Aid or drinking the AG1. It's funny you say that. If I could take a a brief detour. Yes. Because I've not been on social media long. Like I had in my mind what an influencer was. But now when I see it play out, especially in in medical circles or medical applications, influencer is very much an influencer. I say that and you're like, "Yeah, I know. That's why they're called." No. You're talking about changing the
You're talking about changing the mindset like a Joe Rogan of millions of people. Joe Rogan when he's talked about methylene blue on his which is an absolutely outrageous phenomenon by itself. The number of phone calls I got in my practice. Do you have methylene blue? Do you carry will you get methyline blue? This was before I was involved in social media and I so I didn't even understand the connection. Why is every So I used methylene blue in my surgical training to like localize lymph nodes. Okay. So that's how I knew of methylene blue. It's it's something that we inject into an IV and it consolidates into a lymph. Like why would you want methylene blue? I mean there's it's a surgical dye, right? All that the whole methylene blue story is trumped up. Someone will get pissed for me saying that. Well, I want I need to know this. Okay, so this is Oh my god, I love that you're here. Okay, so methylane blue, it's it's the hottest thing in like in biohacking. It's still I mean I feel like it's wow it's gotten replaced by some other Well, but the thing is people are still thinking it's great. So tell me what Okay, so is it a total farce? Is it a total riact isn't the evidence. So you you have to look at it this way. And so we're definitely getting into the the data like I was talking to you about the buzzwords. So the data that is like the ten commandments handed down by God. That's not how it works. Methylene blue there. So there's a lot of mechanistic data out there. And it's really important to understand what mechanistic data is because it's scary when you know what it is. And as a doctor, my the most disturbing thing I see in the the doc fluencer circles Yeah. are the people that seem to have like gone totally off the rails with just rational thought. Like the rules didn't change. We we A physician is a scientist. They're just they just specialize in human health,
they just specialize in human health, anatomy, biology. Okay. Science is science. And science is predicated on a thought process, a systematic way to ask a question and find an answer. And that process starts typically in a lab setting because when you get to an organism level, humans are the the highest level organism. I you can make make up stuff, but from from an intellectual standpoint, from a complexity biology standpoint, and so trying to test something in a human is very difficult. And after World War II, it's also illegal. Right. Um, so when you look at what happens, how do we begin to test? So I observe say something in nature. I go, that's really interesting. I wonder what would happen if I introduced a substance into a cell. So you go, you take a petri dish, plastic dish, you put some cells, single cells, the smallest building block, and you introduce the substance. If we get to the peptide conversation today, we'll we'll get get well into that. Yeah. So, but mechanistic data is observing some effect on a single cell. You are trillions of cells. A mouse is trillions of cells. Okay? One single cell that's we typically call them like cultured cell lines. Okay? And so seeing an effect on a single cell in a petri dish raises questions. I mean you you can go oh that's an interesting mechanism or pathway or biologic activity that occurs but that's all you can say that has nothing whatsoever to do with the human body. So what methylene blue does for mitochondria in a single cell line we don't have any evidence that it has an impact at the organism level. Does that track for you? So basically for the person who doesn't understand all these things, you know, like for example me, would you say that
like for example me, would you say that it's all hype? There's no real evidence on it and it's basically a load of non like a load of crap. I wouldn't say that because I think you have to literally parcel out. Why were people taking it? Because Joe I mean besides that besides no no but there is no besides think I mean there is no besides it's literally because Joe Rogan said that and he has such a powerful reach and influence this what does he say the reason is energizing I mean again like I said in a controlled lab setting okay what what it can do what methylene can do in a single cell as it relates to mitochondrial performance realize if we in the longevity space mitochondria and muscle should be synonymous. Those two parameters drive metabolic health. And metabolic disease, the opposite of health, is the leading cause of death in the United States today. We could unpack it, but cardiovascular disease is not the leading cause of death. That is an effect of the leading cause of death. What what blows my mind is we're still 2026. We're still listing off, you know, the statistics, the data around cardiovascular disease, cancer, stroke, dementia, okay, this whole slew of leading causes of death. But I would submit to you very plainly that you don't want to ask, you know, the that list. You want to ask what's causing that list. And there's one thing very plainly which is the progression of metabolic dysfunction, insulin resistance, synonymous metabolic inflexibility and then ultimately think of it as a timeline over time the progression to type two diabetes because what we can say okay this is nerdy okay but what we can say plainly diabetics type two diabetics that's an easy population to study right they have
easy population to study right they have a diagnosis they're in a dise they have disease qualifier easy to find in a database. What's the So the question we have to ask is what's the impact of type 2 diabetes on all cause mortality death from anything 3 to 400% higher than the average population. That's a problem. Wow. I am not aware of any other single agent relative to all cause mortality because we talked about grip strength. We'll get into all these like numbers. So all-c cause mortality if you say well what is longevity well it's preventing or reducing risk of all cause mortality that's the ultimately longevity agent okay is that fair yeah fair so in a diabetic 3 to 400% higher likelihood to die period all cause mortality but look at the impact of type 2 diabetes on the risk of cardiovascular death 2. 5 to three times higher than the average population almost on par with familial hyper cholesterolimeia. We all know, you know, cholesterol is bad. We can get into that that conversation. Statins for everybody. And I think there's a rational use to it all. But nevertheless, we're so hung up on cardiovascular death, leading cause of death in the United States today, which by the way, it's it's just barely above cancer. But one single agent exponentially increases the risk of death from heart attack, stroke, early onset dementia, cancer, and that's diabetes. To me, that's the smoking gun. So, does that mean sugar should be eliminated from your diet? Not if you want to. And not directly. No. And then does that mean then okay and I'm just if it's all about insulin resistance so is there a reason why everyone then should be on a GLP1? The argument I think is being made
The argument I think is being made towards that. The short answer is no. Not everybody should be on a GLP-1. GLP1s are tools. Okay. They're not weight loss drugs. That to me Eli Liy and Novaortis should be pitching a fit because they're not weight loss drugs. They're well beyond that and we see that in the data right the impact on reducing the risk of cardiovascular disease all these things but as a purist as a nerd at heart you have to look at what we call mechanisms of action and GLP1s do one thing and one thing only they improve insulin sensitivity okay now how they achieve that can be through reduction of food noise very powerful slowing of stomach emptying Okay, what we call delayed gastric emptying, but those agents also work preferentially on the pancreas. So they're improving insulin sensitivity. So, this goes to my point. People want to say, "Oh my gosh, Ozimpyic reduces the risk of heart attack." Yeah, the the data said 20% reduction major adverse cardiac events, but it doesn't reduce the risk of heart disease. It reverses insulin resistance, right? But insulin resistance is the driver between heart disease, stroke. So you can logically say this is what I would expect to see. So you just said to me that cancer, dementia, uh cardiovascular uh you know heart health, all these things the the root cause of all these things is insulin resistance. So then if you're saying that then if you're reverse engineering this whole thing you would say that how do we get not how do we not be insulin resistant? Correct. that is true is then we should be like we should okay taking the tool of a GLP1 right how else can we become not insulin resistant if we don't want to take that move to Europe I don't know right insulin resistance understanding insulin resistance the how the why the the mechanistic nature of it I think is really important because this is where
really important because this is where all these um these these groups come from the carnivores the the keos that all these things there is no one But wait then let me I'm just going to keep on interjecting here because I've got questions. So wouldn't that make the most logical sense if if we want if we don't want to be insulin resistant and there is a tool like a GLP1 or two or three with all these, you know, new ones coming up. Isn't that like doesn't that make the most sense? Why shouldn't we be all be on a GLP1 then? if that will basically uh create a situation where we're not going to potentially get cancer or heart problem, you know, heart attacks or whatever else. Well, I mean, I think the fundamental argument is that GLP-1s are drugs. We Let's clear this up, okay? GLP-1 insight to produced by the human body is a peptide, short - chain amino acid. Okay. Ozimpic is a drug. Yeah. They're all drugs. What makes it different? its origins are as a peptide. But what does big pharma, the infamous big pharma, which by the way, I'm going to give a quick um PSA to the world here because you have a great following. If a doctor uses the terms big and pharma in the same sentence, you should walk out. Really, we don't talk about big pharma. There is a pharmaceutical industry. We don't work. We're not poisoned. We're not agents of big pharma. It's just total crazy train where people go. But the the important thing to understand is, are you getting paid by big pharma? Oh man, you weren't supposed to bring that up. I know. Sorry. I [snorts] I only get paid a million dollars a year. [laughter] Oh, here's another PSA for everybody. Just get it out in in the open. Um, openpayments. gov. If you want to know if a doctor is being paid by anybody, big farmer or otherwise, you go to openpayments. gov and type in the doctor's name. It's a public database. So all the trickery of like, oh, you're getting paid. No,
like, oh, you're getting paid. No, listen. I can't be paid literally a penny. Not a penny. That is not reported. Now, I'm already going to go here, but and yet a fitness influencer can make millions, show you his new car off the peptides he's hustling you for, and there's no conflict of interest there. No, they just want you to be healthy. They're just they just care so much. So a doctor for a doctor to take money okay which by the way folks that was decades ago where yes indeed there was a time where pharmaceutical companies in my world of spine surgery yeah there's there's a lot of money being exchanged decades ago back in the' 9s. Okay. The the laws that have been passed to scrutinize uh it is illegal for me to take money and not report it. Well, so it's it's not do surgeons or physicians do it? I'm sure they do. I'm sure it happens. That's the reality of life. However, it is actually against the law. So, because it's against the law now, oh my god, there's so many things here. So because it's against the law, is that why so many doctors are hustling uh these compound peptides because they can make money off of it and because they have the DR in front of their name, people will believe them more and therefore people will subscribe and buy from their affiliate code and do all the things and they can make millions of dollars. You don't have it's not just the fitness influencers, my dear friend. It are doctors who are doing the same because they want to make money. I agree. And I and the chiropractors. Yeah. Uh so I would say very plainly um and and I see this all the time. I commented on on someone gave me the the distinction of being the number one peptide troll on Instagram the other day
peptide troll on Instagram the other day and I I was like I don't know if I've ever been number one in my life, but this is great. Like how is that possible? Because I don't know how the algorithm works, but the crap shows up on my feed. So if I see something that's fraudulent, I'm going to comment. So when you tell somebody that this is what BPC will do for you, the implication is that there is scientific evidence of it actually taking place in the human body and there is not. So saying we go back to that cell conversation, saying something like methylene blue does something in a single cell devoid of an organism is actually totally irrelevant. So when people tell me when I hear a doctor say it's really exciting, I look at that guy and go, you're you're lying through your teeth. You and I both know it's not at all exciting. Reading mechanistic data is not exciting because do you know the natural history of mechanistic data resulting in outcomesbased human evidence? Less than 10% makes it to the point because this is the standard in the pharmaceutical industry. You see something, it's interesting. You put it in a cell, oh, something interesting happens. Now, we're going to put it in an animal. Oh, something interesting happens. Now, we're going to put it in a human. Oops, it causes cancer. Or, oops, it doesn't actually do anything at all. So, okay, this is Does that reate sense? It does because that's the absurdity of the world we're living in. You're telling me you're excited. And so it's one thing for the general public, with all due respect, to be excited cuz I I get it. You're reading something and you're like, "Oh, this sounds really cool." Or someone told me, "Oh my gosh, it regenerates tissue. That's really cool. I don't disagree." But as a physician, as a scientist, it's fraudulent to then tell another human, right? Because you're an authority on human health. I'm using that authority. Just what you alluded to. I'm not one to point
alluded to. I'm not one to point fingers at intentions or or motivations. That's beyond what I can do. But the surface observation is that a doctor who is a trusted resource in human healthcare is making claims about a bioactive substance in humans knowing full well that it does not exist. Okay, this is not even a leap of faith. It's just crazy train. Yeah, this is blowing my mind because um BPC157 is all over the place and it's and everybody I know is taking it. Everybody millions have been uh miraculously healed. Did you know that? Yeah. Well, is it placebo? Is it like psychossematic? Are people thinking they're being healed by it? Are they getting healed by by something else? Like and they think it's PPC? Is it? It's It's hard to say. I mean, I can't say definitively. So, here here's my thing. You don't take it. Uh I don't When I had my neck surgery, I did. But why? You just finished saying that it's not necessarily there's no evidence around it. Correct. But there is anecdotal evidence which has value, which has merit, and there is preclinical evidence. So, here's the difference. Okay. I'm not anti-eptide. I'm pro-evidence. Really key distinction. Okay, I've read all the data. If I'm talking to a client and they come to me and they say, "Doc, you know, I twisted my knee and my buddy's been on BPC. It said it saved his life. Um, should I be on that?" I say plainly, "Listen, here's the situation with BPC. Here's what we know to be true. There's mechanistic data, single cell data that suggests that BPC has healing properties." Okay? We've observed that in many studies and we also have lab rats that have demonstrated some element of
have demonstrated some element of connective tissue healing. Okay, at least 30 separate articles or papers written about it. What we don't have is any zero any human evidence. Okay, so here's where the gap exists. Like at a very basic level, who the hell knows this? I'm not even going to get into the gray market stuff, but who the hell knows if I inject BPC into my thigh, who knows how long it survives? First, step one for a pharmaceutical company to build a drug is something called pharmaccoinetics. You actually evaluate it in the or does it make it into the bloodstream? Does it survive in the bloodstream? Does it actually deliver to the intended treatment site? Those are all things leading up to the ultimate question which is does it alter outcomes in a human organism? So you see how far removed we are from hard facts. So I can't look at you and say Jennifer you need to take BPC to heal your knee. But wait. [clears throat] Okay. But you don't say you need to. But would you put me on it just because it might work if I decide I wanted to go on it? Why did you go on it for your neck? If you had all the information, you know, all the research you've done, why did you do it? Because it might help. Because of the might. Did it help? Hard to say. Because I don't ever use BPC as a um as a standalone treatment. Okay. because or stem cells or well so no in that space we have we we have decades maybe centuries of data surrounding growth hormone and its repairerative or restorative effects that's clear that's very linear and that's in humans big difference okay so I will pretty much uniformly recommend a growth hormone secret which has been wellstied in humans in addition to the BPC. I don't I mean truth be told
to the BPC. I don't I mean truth be told I personally as a practicing physician I don't trust BPC enough to use it as a standalone in my practice I mean over a thousand clients over time my data is split down the middle 50 / 50 okay 50% have a you get to the thing too subjective response that's a story which is very valuable placebo effect possibly. Don't discount the placebo effect. I don't as a physician, right? There are plenty of people that you don't have a diagnosis for. They have symptoms that for them are significant, severe, debilitating. And if I have something that they take and doesn't harm them and they get better subjectively, that's not the worst thing in the world. That's just reality. So then, okay. So then, does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense to me. That makes sense. It's not. So there there's a balance and people again everybody wants to box specifically box me in. I try to maintain a high level of transparency around what we do and don't know regarding peptides. What I can't do I can't say Jennifer this BPC. So it increases new blood vessel formation through upregulation of VEF vascular endothelial growth factor and that translates to improved tissue healing and repair. If you heard me say that, how would you interpret that? That it works in you. Yeah. But you're a human. Yes. So, I do have that data. Last time I checked. Yeah. Well, I mean, you can always It's what you identify as. [laughter] Um, but the level of data that we have to make those statements I just made are in lab rats, right? So, if I don't qualify that, do you see the difference? Yes, if I don't qualify as Jennifer, this is what we saw in lab rats. Now, I need to tell you plainly
rats. Now, I need to tell you plainly that the translation of data, positive data seen in animal models to human outcomes is very it it translates very poorly. What about another one? TB500 is even worse. Way worse than Wolverine. And and yeah, the Wolverine. Wouldn't you like to be Wolverine? I like that X-Men. You kind of look like Wolverine. What are you doing? I don't have the thing. Okay, but you look really fit. What do you You're on You're definitely on something. Oh, have to be. I'm on hard work and consistency. That's what I'm on. That's what I use, everybody. Oh, man. That's a whole another We're going to get So, don't even start there. So, but let's do TB500. Let's do TB500 because this is a really important the TB500. And I also want you to talk about the Wolverine. Right. So what [clears throat] I love is that people are literally going back and forth on social media about combining two peptides in a single delivery model like the Wolverine. So TB500 BP BPC157 and they're talking about well can they survive together? Can they basically cohabitate and all stuff who gives a rip if they don't even work period right like you're talking about layers. See this is what happens. This is the influence, right? Is we're bypassing these huge steps in the process. Yeah. And we're talking about should they be paired together. I'm more concerned of do they do anything? Okay. Yeah. And obviously, you know, as a physician, first do no harm. So the safety piece always has to come first. That's why we in phase one and phase two clinical trials, those are about safety. Phase three is about efficacy. Okay? So you spend years making sure it's safe in a human being. We haven't done any of that for a peptide. Well, but your body produces it. Well, yeah, it produces GLP-1, too. So, we don't need safety data. Oh, and then let's go down the vaccine route. I'm not going there. But, um, so here's really important. We got to stress about TB500. That this is
to stress about TB500. That this is borders on criminal because TB500 by definition is a fragment. It's a short chain fragment of something called thyosin beta 4, TB4. Okay, the thymosin family, thyosin alpha, thyosin beta, these are um these are peptides that were extracted from the thymus which is a gland that secretes various uh bioactive substances in a human and TA1 thymus and alpha 1 thyosin beta 4 have been studied in humans not to the extent of say like a a drug but they actually have indications ions in FDA approval for use, which means they've been studied enough to say they're safe and they actually work. Okay. So, thymus and beta 4 we have great great studies on uh well maybe by the way. Oh, exactly. But you've heard of TB500. Yeah. So, the game is okay. So we have this larger molecule that's proven to be have biologic effect, positive biologic effect in humans. So we got to credit it there. If we just chop off what seems to be the most active part of that molecule. Now we're back in the petri dish. Okay. And look what it does in a petri dish. Oh wow. It's active. It it renders similar effects. Therefore, okay, now we're here and we're going to make a big leap here. You ready? Therefore, TB500 and TB4 are the same thing. Does that make sense to you? Like, would you sign off on that yourself? No. Because that's what's being presented. People talk about TB500, but what they're referencing are studies. They're referencing scientific evidence in humans of TB4, thymus beta 4. So, it's a complete clown show. And one of the
complete clown show. And one of the kings of this whole narrative is this uh [snorts] chiropractor. I don't have any issue with well-qualified chiropractors name uh Trevor Bachmire. I mean this guy is just totally unhinged. He literally lost his license as a chiropractor and resurfaced as you know we were talking about how a lot of criminals felons like to resurface as longevity experts. That's you know why? Because there's no regulation. Correct. I know. And so then imagine what they can do. So, right. So, I take a lot of heat, understandably so. I mean, I get it. I don't have any qualms with that. If you can't defend or provide rationale supporting evidence or data to what you do clinically, yeah, I would call that I mean it some would call it malpractice. Okay. So, but yeah, that's the beauty of the wellness experts and enthusiasts and and longevity experts, right? You can literally be picking your nose one day and the next day you're an expert just because you said so. Oh, and then mix in a little bit of chat GPT and you're you got your certificate now. Right. And so that's but that the tragedy is you know I people what's a longevity expert? I get that all the time. I'll give you my definition. Tell me what do you think a long what Okay. What is your definition of a longevity expert? So a longevity expert first it's a foundational educational background. So could you be a PhD in human something and become a longevity expert? Yes. I mean you know David Sinclair is an example right he's PhD lab at Harvard very well known for his rveratrol work right which was a total fraud by the way. Total total fraud. Correct. So, exactly. But well, we talk a really big time fraud. We can talk about the human biologist, Gary Brea. [laughter] Um, apparently now when you get a bachelor's degree in biology, you are a biologist. Typically in academic
biologist. Typically in academic circles, we reserve a title like biologist for a higher level degree like a master's and minimum master's credit. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Like I have a I myself, it's on my wall. I have a bachelor's of science in human biology. I'm not a biologist, nor would I ever reference myself as a biologist. But but again, the rules also like me. I have a bachelor's in psychology. I'm not a psychologist. Oh, I didn't know that. Clinical psychologist. You didn't know that? No, I didn't know that. So, yeah. So, the the goalposts are kind of constantly moving. Yes. I I digress, but but really long and short of it with TB500 is we're talking about all these mechanisms and actions in the human body that are totally irrelevant. People are referencing literally quoting research from a parent molecule. So basically then do people even take TB500 on its own even or is it always they always are Yeah, there's the arguments of of dosing it uh different so so less frequently than BPC. There's a lot of different protocols people have come up with. Okay, so the Wolverine stack, what is it? Why are people taking it? And that's obviously also a total scam. So I want to be careful here because I really try to adhere to science evidence. I mean I'm a physician. This is where to me the the doc fluencer role which can be powerful can be there are some really cool people out there that I learn a ton from. Who do you like? And then oh I knew you Mary Cla Dr. very clear. Obviously, from a women's health perspective, I I see the the women's health movement that's evolved from social media is like probably the greatest thing to come out of social media, at least right now in medicine. But, um, oh, I could list off there's there's one woman I I have to
there's there's one woman I I have to look it up, but one woman I follow um she's an obesity medicine specialist and um she she gets it. The cool thing about social media is that it does force you to communicate much better because you're you're trying to deliver a nuanced message in 30 45 seconds. That's really hard to do, right? It's a challenge. And and then what I love about social media is that I see it as an element of accountability because despite all the quacks that are out there, there are some really smart people. So I don't get to say I'm a physician and then just spout off on stuff. I at least I don't believe that's that's you have it's like basically like a you it's like a it's like the wild west. You're going to have people who are good, you're going have people are bad, but you have to be super discerning. That's the whole thing, right? You have to know there's so much noise and it's over information now. It's too much information which is why people are confused which is now getting back to the Wolverine tech. Tell me what you think. So BPC TB TB500 like I said that that is the biggest hoax that we have. There is absolutely no human evidence and all the rationale or thought around why this is a synergistic combination okay is completely irrational it's unsupported now if you were going to make something and so why not TB 4 thymus and beta 4 very expensive difficult to make so no one's so the hustlers are are like hey I'm going to just make a just a little I'm just going to sneak this in here and so I literally see these these online peptide companies and stuff that will say TB4 when they're talking about TB500. Doesn't work that way. Like biology doesn't work that way. So at some point in time, we got to call a spade. That's fraudulent, right? You're literally describing a molecule that's been studied, chopping a little
that's been studied, chopping a little chunk off of it, and calling it the same, which that's just grossly inaccurate. If a pharmaceutical company did that, Wall Street would there would be ma massive fallout, massive class action, right? So we have a certain standard that we hold pharmaceutical companies to, but we'll let the wellness guys just make these leaps of faith and you know, it's so cool. Does that Exactly. So, does that mean then TB4 is really effective? Yes. for what it for what it's so more like so if people have money don't have access to it if they have money can't they get access to right now I would say not really outside of again FDA approved uses so right now you know what happened with the compounding pharmacies which is a whole another uh everybody wants the conspiracy everybody wants to know the money trail right how about we look at the money trail right now where fitness influencers people who literally have no comprehension of basic science are making millions. They are profiting millions by taking off their shirt and be saying my stack did this. Okay, the stacks thing makes my head want to pop off because conveniently, nine times out of 10, their stacks include one to two substances with well-known, well doumented effects and then a slew of other things that are doing all activating this pathway and moving the needle here. when you're on reatride, okay, and you're seeing radical body composition ch, you know, change real time. Well, we know that's what reatrite does. We have literally thou tens of thousands of human subjects that we've already proven that it works. So now, why do you need to add in Matzi one amino this whole slew of your stack and then try to justify it with these
and then try to justify it with these bizarre um mechanistic pathways? Again understanding this that a mechanistic pathway that exists in a single cell does not mean it exists in a human. Moreover, it does not mean at all in any way, shape or form that it's synergistic with another pathway. The idea in the these guys say peptide sciences the the theory that breaks down from the word go is that well if I activate this pathway and I activate this pathway that they're synergistic that's pure hypothesis not even supported hypothesis okay but reiter is a hot thing right now totally and uh it I thought it's going to change the world right but I thought it was only well I heard last time I checked it was only in rats it's not human uh it's not proven in human no on the contrary no it it I don't know the exact timeline for FDA approval but the phase three clinical trials so no reat's at the end of the uh it's coming up to the finish line it's gone through phase one two and three clinical trials it is the most wellstied and this is a whole another story that the world has never seen where an actual drug a pharmaceutical drug called redatru tide is maybe being produced in substandard areas the gray market and they're all compounded the ones that I Yeah. And I believe truthfully I believe some of it's reatride and some of it's not. Okay. I mean but retatrite itself that molecule that synthesized molecule that drug has the most compelling overwhelmingly compelling science to support its use in humans. We're already we're probably I I don't know I'm going to guess within a year or two it's going to be FDA approved. It's going to be widespread use through pharmaceutical channels. So if someone's buying it compounded right now but they're still they're getting great results. Is it What do you say?
results. Is it What do you say? What do I say? Um do you believe in that one? Do I believe in ratatouide like like the the effects? Oh, it's it's it literally is a lifesaving drug. The idea, by the way, that that big pharma wants to keep everybody sick. Um, people keep themselves sick. Okay? When you gorge yourself on soda and donuts and you sit on a couch and play video games, um, you're keeping yourself sick. I hate to be a bear of bad news. Yeah. Big pharma has introduced more therapeutics even in the last decade that are targeted therapeutics to actually reverse disease conditions. But big pharma is just out there to make money. Sure they are. They're publicly traded. Yeah. Like who's that's not a secret. But so are the wellness influencers hustling peptides? They're there to make money. You see any of them handing stuff away for free? No. Exact. They're not like just use my code and get a free shipment. Yeah. Just so so um No. Redat true tide the GLP class okay and again this is where it's tricky because at a very technical level the GLP class is born out of or built off of a peptide framework okay calling GLPS peptides I think is is a pretty loose it's a mechanism to um alter the narrative okay because what people are doing is they're taking these wholly unstudied in humans BPC TB500 GHK copper or uh epatital. I mean the list goes on and on. Wholly unstudied in humans. Okay. And then they throw in a GLP which is studied into the ground. Decades decades. The first GLP was brought to market in 2005. Decades of data proven effective. And then they're like, well, see, look how well peptides work. Let's parcel this out. We have FDA approved drugs based on a peptide
approved drugs based on a peptide framework, right? Then we have the influencer hustle peptides with zero human evidence. Not the same camps. Okay. But you don't get to lump them together. You don't get to but why people are compounding tepatide and ompic and it's a fraction of the price. It's really not. By the way, if you look at here's my belief about um You want to do the GLP conversation? I mean, we don't have to get too far into I mean GP before we get to GLP, I want one more I have one more question about peptides. Matsi I want to know about and I also want to know about GHQ, GHK, uh copper, right? So Matsi is again I think mechanistically why do people take it? So it's it's a mitochondrial optimizer I said earlier, right? It's very clear the relationship. So you're you're a densest repository of mitochondria. So energy production current skeletal muscle. So think of mitochondrial health as synonymous with muscle health synonymous with metabolic health. That is the trifecta. No other single parameter that you could trend. And this we can get into longevity metrics has a more direct positive influence on metabolic health than muscle. And I'll unpack that for you, right? But more muscle technically I always said more functional muscle. So strength over size uh is the single greatest predictor of long-term health and survivability. Okay? But realize that's bolstered through its effects on human metabolism. By the way, V2 max has nothing to do with insulin resistance. Sorry to break it to you folks. So, we're saying the leading cause of death in the United States today is insulin resistance in the form of type 2 diabetes. The single most potent agent we have to directly reverse insulin resistance. Okay, we can get into the weeds of remission versus reversal diabetes uh is
remission versus reversal diabetes uh is muscle period. Everything else flows from that. Is does that track or does that make sense? So when it comes to keep asking me that so no well well because because this is the thing that I wrestle with is um you can be knowledgeable and you're not an effective communicator and you might as well not be knowledgeable right you're very if it doesn't landing it's landing if it doesn't land or resonate and and honestly my platform my position is very simple I actually went into medicine I became a doctor to help people crazy I know That's crazy. I didn't do it to get rich. I didn't do it whatever other to work for big pharma or anything. Right. Well, you're from Ohio. I mean, you're just like a simple truly this simple country surgeon. Like that's my origin. It is not anything fancy or elaborate. And I really believed becoming a doctor I could help people. And so when you look at what's going on in the United States today, which is a broad landscape of insanity, but when you look at the health crisis in the United States today, today the obesity epidemic, we need to get back to the root cause, the actual root cause. If I can change, it's a razor simplest explanation to to equate to the larger good. If if I can change one parameter and it exponentially reduces your risk of death, I would go after that. Yeah. I wouldn't actually spend a lot of time chasing a bunch of other stuff. And we can talk about how that relates in in actual clinical practice, but the truth of the matter is if you're building healthy lean muscle as a priority, you are indeed extending your lifespan, health span. If I look at someone who is insulin resistant, we get a fasting insulin on you and we then
a fasting insulin on you and we then proceed to do nothing. Don't change your diet, don't change anything about what you do dayto-day and we strategically build more muscle, your fasting insulin will come down. It has to by definition. Now, where does a GLP fit in? It's a tool. So, I can talk to you about how those tools relate, but ultimately I see a GLP as as a mechanism to enhance. But don't get there yet. I want to know about Matzi. You said the mitochondrial one. Mitochondria. You're right. Matsi. And then GH. Don't forget about the copper one. Well, GHK is easy. I'll just put it to you this way. There's no evidence for systemic use. Okay. Cuz I keep on seeing girls and topical is a workhorse. They're getting injections and they're like I'm like, "Why did your skin look so good?" And they're like, "Oh, I GHK copper." So, will I look 10 years younger? No. You will if you put topical. So I love GHK copper as a topical application for any any uh you know invasive procedure of the skin. You violate the epidermis. So that could be like a skin pin um RF micro needling even a laser. Okay. So GHQ GHK topical has excellent human evidence. Yeah. The injection well the injection has zero. It's never been studied. So why is everyone taking it? because you told me that you took it and your skin looks amazing. You left out the part that you just did a full field a blade of laser and right and you highdose omegas and you do IV vitamin C. You want to talk about by the way making skin glow and heal. You do highdose vitamin C infusions. Okay. But that's the part they leave out. Why? Because they can't sell that stuff. That's not. But I can hustle you for some GHK. I can put it on my podcast and I get a lot of likes. There is zero. There's no debating it. And for some reason, someone will come up maybe from this podcast and be like, "No, see here's the
podcast and be like, "No, see here's the studies." Yeah, it's called topical. If I put it in a cream form, it's actually wellstudied. Most well studied actually in aging women. So 70-year - old women. It It's a very effective tool. Where do I get it? Compounding. What's the best way? I compound it. Can you compound some for me? Sure. Yeah. Just the just a topical. I make lots of concoctions. Really? Do you use it? Uh, so my I mean the workhorse is tininoan. You everyone talks about tininoan. Okay. What is that? Tininoan's the oldest vitamin A. Uh but real this is really important. Yes. So for the listeners. Okay. And for me I'm listening. I know. Um you have retinoids. You've heard everyone's like, "Oh, you need retinoid." No, you need retinoic acid. They're different. Retinoids are retinyl like compounds. So, you see those you can get, uh, now there's some that are OTC off over the counter, you get at Walgreens. Okay. Retinoic acid, um, the pill form, Accutane, you've heard of that, right? So, the topical form, tininoan, is pure retinoic acid. And so retinoic acid is is the most potent. It is the single most critical anti-aging skin health modality. Every single person should have a high quality tininoan. It can't be I I can't make the same claims for the stuff on on the counter at Target. Where do I get it? From a doctor's office. And they they have to prescribe it. Yeah. And then how often do you use it? So I I try to have every one of my clients build up to nightly application teninoic acid or or excuse me retinoic acid tininoan at the concentrations that I would recommend. So for you I'd recommend 0. 1%. Okay. If you just started at 0. 1% it will fry your face. Now, I would submit that probably six, eight weeks of, you know,
probably six, eight weeks of, you know, some redness, some flakiness, some real irritation, you'll get past that initial phase and it's glow up for life. But the way I do it in my clinical practice, cuz no one's jumping around to do it is I start at 0. 025 and then I um progressively work up. So, we start extremely light, have a great vehicle. This is, don't worry, I I don't get kickbacks. We love Skin Better. Skin Better by far and a way I think is the most powerful potent skin care line medical grade skinare and so that starts at 0. 025% uh retinoic acid. So I can can I buy that? Yeah. From a physician's office. So you can prescribe it for me. Yeah. And it's I think it's that is it's a really nice delivery vehicle. So it keeps your skin hydrated. It it's it's you could do the experiment like on your forum. I give you 0. 1%. I mean it it's pretty irritating. It's It's pretty harsh. It's only six to eight weeks. And so like if a lot of dermatology colleagues of mine are like, "Ah, it's only six to eight weeks." I'm like, "Come on, really? You're out. Your whole face is flaking off, bright red, or itchy." Not too many people sign up. But if you sequentially, if you go 025, 0. 05. 1, and you work up to it, I usually with clients, it's like 6 to 8 months. I I'm in no hurry because ultimately when you get to that 0. 1 concentration, that's that's the sweet spot. I love that with topical estrogen. Um Oh, that works so well. Yeah. So, I make my own little concoctions. It's a very potent um it's a powerful hormone for skin health and uh skin turnover. So, but can't it like seep into your bloodstream? The estrogen? No. Okay. So, what if I just use the topical estrogen? Does that work without the tin the No. Tininoan's the workhorse. Tininoan literally every single person that wants to age well proactively should be on treino and I would argue like all the people like oh it's it's the GHK and all that stuff
oh it's it's the GHK and all that stuff and then they refer you to the link to buy. Uh they're probably doing something else. I'm sorry. I I I'm sorry. That's just the truth of it. Now people are going to flip out and be like, "Well, you're lying. I get this all the time." Well, how do you account for the millions of people that have been cured of X, Y, and Z with BPC? Um, I say that's great. If it works for you, that's great. I've used it in my clinical practice. I track every patient. That's part of being an expert. It requires documentation, data analysis, and interpretation. Right? That's how you you're an expert. In my practice, and and really, if you pin people down, BPC is a 50 / And last time I checked, flipping a coin is not If I said, "We're gonna do surgery on you and we'll flip a coin to see if it's going to work." Would you sign up for it re realistically? I had someone tell me I said 50 / 50 and they're like, "So you're saying it works? Great." No, I'm saying it's placebo effect. There's a 50 / 50 chance. Do you know what this reminds me of? Have you ever seen dema and dumber when they're like, "Would you go with me?" Yeah, but one in a million. So you're saying that's that's what it is. And so you're saying there's a chance. Exactly. And that's the that is the essence of of the peptide hustle. So you're saying there's a chance. A 50 plus billion dollar industry. That was 2024. 50 plus billion dollars spent on peptides for the hopes of something. So you're saying there's a chance. Yeah. Is a chance worth 50 billion? I don't think it is. But the tragedy is people would rather take that chance than just do the basic stuff. Treinoan I mean 20 bucks. I mean it's dirt cheap GHK it's a nice theory but again GHK copper tininoan estradile cream now that that we're talking and you'll see
that we're talking and you'll see meaningful results. So wait guess back to the tininoan. So then would you put the 0. 025 on every night? Yes, for sure. Okay. Like what would be the routine? I wash my face, then put serums. How about the serum? Yes. So, usually so, so the application of the tre product, whether it's pure tread or it's um in a carrier vehicle, and then that's when you put whatever serums, lotions, um first beef tallow, butter. Um So, you think beef tallow? No, I'm being sarcastic. It's just outrageous. I mean, you stick your bowl your head in a ice bucket and then you put butter on your face. Like, who is coming up with this stuff? And it would be one thing if like we didn't have tried and true proven but yeah you want this the not so secret secret every one of my clients regardless of age now a younger woman for example I would keep on 0025 30s into their 40s unless they demonstrated more accelerated age relating age related change. So for every day you'd put you'd wash their face put that on in evening evening right okay and then you could put your serums Yep. and then or or some moisturizer. I would always do a moisturizer on top of it. So when how often should we use the estrogen on our face? Uh it's it can be periodized but on a daily basis like during the day or at night? Yeah, I would do it at night. Not during the day. During the day is when I would use whatever your standard regimen is. Um typically some type of of moisture, some type of delivery vehicle. You know, a lot of these products have vitamin C, so on and so forth. I don't How about hyaluronic acid? Complete clown show. Really? Topical hyaluronic acid. Yeah. Is only matched by injected, right? Skinv, you've heard, have you heard of Skinv? Allergan bought SkinV. It was well over a billion dollars. I don't want to misspeak. Um,
don't I don't want to misspeak. Um, SkinV is a injectable just like your, you know, HA fillers, okay, that you're supposed to inject into the skin to deliver hyaluronic acid. Being in Colorado, by the way, hyaluronic acid is a workhorse in my practice. Hyaluronic acid is hydration and volume. Think of it that way. Yeah. Right. So, I its basic function is to pull water into the extracellular space. So, you get that nice plump hydration. And in Colorado, we're bone dry. So, it's huge. There is actually a technology that works so well, it's actually proven in large scale studies. 200 plus% increase in hyuronic acid production. 212 to be exact, but it's a technology. What is it? It's called Exxion. So, it's a combination of radio frequency and ultrasound heat. Have you ever heard of all therapy? Yeah. Have you think of it as kind of best it's a cousin of that? It's I wouldn't consider it a similar modality but the data around hyuronic acid production is rock solid. We use SkinV in my practice. I I'm free to say all this stuff, right? Like people may throw fit. Um SkinV is is a disaster. I've never once seen a good result. Hyaluronic acid is a workhorse for skin health. Again, so we use it uh think of it as even like um we'll use this technology. It's it's anywhere from a 5 to 8 minute treatment. Um my female clients will come in the morning of a social event because you get this immediate production of hyaluronic acid. So you get this nice kind of it's a glow up, but it's a real glow up that you actually glow. You get a nice little pink, a little plump. They go to their event, rock stars. But that that's a technology. Okay. But wait, so then just to be clear, yeah, topical hyaluronic acid, I am not aware
topical hyaluronic acid, I am not aware as a physician of any study that demonstrates efficacy for topical hyaluronic acid because hyaluronic acid exists below the cell, outside of the cell. Okay. So to cross an airtight, watertight barrier called the epidermis. You think about that. It's kind of silly. It So you're right, but it sounds good. So it does. Yeah. And and I would stress very importantly, hyaluronic acid. It collagen, elastin, hyaluronic acid. Those are the three most critical elements of skin skin health. What is it called? Collagen, elastin. Right. So you've got your uh collagen is your support structure, elastin gives your skin that elasticity and and all these obviously decrease with age and then hyaluronic acid. So those are the three components. So so every product on the market will make some reference to those but bear in mind what is critical for collagen production. We know what happens when you don't have it. It's a vitamin, right? Vitamin C. So you said high doses of vitamin C. What does that mean? 8 to 10 grams of what? Vitamin C. No. How do introvenous? So we should take Where do we do that? Come to my office. It's it's it only took me like an hour and a half to get here. So yeah, I mean it's not that far. That's not that right. I could just take a pl I mean I think a lot of that's become kind of one of my so now we veer into a little bit about what what we do in the non-invasive aesthetic space but vitamin C people forget that that is by far and away the most potent element of collagen synthesis that you having optimized levels I I use it I mean it's been described in cancer treatments as well but using using a pretty pretty high dose is very powerful. People are going to argue this. People are going to throw fits that I'm saying this, but anytime
fits that I'm saying this, but anytime we're doing an invasive procedure like an RF micro needling energy based procedure, we'll run a drip of highdose vitamin C really. And then what what I'll finish off the treatment with is what we talked about is plus or minus PRP, but we use PDGF, platelet derived growth factor that that's the best. It's the only Yeah. Okay. [clears throat] Exone people are going to crap their pants cuz cuz they we get so such great results and we actually have no research to support it and we actually are printing money. No one likes to hear it. But I only I'm I really stress in my practice I'm only going to use the things that have clear supporting evidence. So you Yeah. So you still believe in RP. You still believe in PRP as a best thing. Um well but what's the difference? PRP. What's the other one you So I always in truth I'm giving away all the secrets here. I I add PDGF PRP plateletri plasma. Platelets are Amazon trucks. Okay. They contain a whole slew of growth factors. One of the highest concentration growth factors in a platelet is plateletder derived growth factor. So I just use um it's synthesized in a lab what we call recombinant pure PDGF and I mix that with PRP. that way. There's there's always this debate around PRP and biologics PRP PRF in that um as we age is the quality of our platelets less I don't know of any scientific evidence one way or the other but but I don't take chances imagine this PDGF recombinant PDGF is 10, 000 times more potent than PRP wow and this is for when do you use this for what so I will use that my general sense of it is anytime we violate the epidermis for any type of procedure, I'm going to use it. Do people use it? Is it common
Do people use it? Is it common topically? Uh it's I I think it's gaining more traction, but but again, there's what Instagram is, it's just a brilliant MLM marketing system, right? It's just a giant marketing scheme. You get You're right. I mean, you get the right person. If Kim Kardashian says, "Oh, I use exoomes on my face." Right? Guess what's going to sell? Exosomes. Does that mean they do anything? No, not necessarily. So, but but that's that's the part about Instagram. That's crazy. What about if I just go to if I just get like call my friend um my friend Dr. A Malakin, shout out. He has a hyd like drip hydration or concierge MD, whatever. Um and I said, "Hey, can you come and give me a vitamin C drip? Would that be great for my skin?" I [snorts] think so. I do it. Bear in mind, I do it more strategically. So, I give you an example, but what should I do? Give me a So, any if you're getting a treatment with an energy based device, so that's like a blade of laser therapy. What if I'm not doing that? Uh, I don't see there being there's not enough bang for your buck. Not enough bang for my buck. So, take advantage of this is where you're always looking for synergies, right? I mean, efficiency is the name of the game in my practice, whether it's clinical, whether it's aesthetic. Shortest distance between two points, still a straight line. Yeah. Least amount of resources. So if I'm going to invest in an energy based procedure, we're doing RF micro needling. We're giving you a shot of energy. We're violating the epidermis. I'm going to put everything into your system that's going to facil facilitate a maximum tissue response. Okay. That's why you're doing so input output. Okay. So that's why you're saying vitamin C. That's why you're saying PRP PDGF. Yeah. So you don't put slam it. What do you do all this stuff? Cuz you look like you look good. Yeah, I I'm And you're a guy. I'm a geek about it. Yeah, you do. I could tell you do a lot of skin care. You look very put together. No, I have a a wonderful wife that tells me like she she puts the things out in
me like she she puts the things out in order and I just do it. Like what? We uh again this I don't nothing for shout out to Skin Better. I do love their line. So, I used the the sequence. Yeah. And what's the sequence? The sequence is um I gotta think. So, it's Alta Advanced. So, it's a um it is a vehicle for a vitamin basically a topical vitamin application, but it's also very hydrating. And then, um And you're not getting [clears throat] paid by saying this? No. Yeah. Nope. You want to know if I'm not getting paid? Yeah, you can go check. Just go check. Um No, it's the product line we use. And then um I have to I can give you the whole rundown, but we do that in sequence. Now, they do have a topical HA product that I've been using. So, I'm always open to things. I don't want it to come out as like really dogmatic and black and white because it's not. I mean, the medicine is nuanced for a reason. There's a reason. It's the practice of medicine. Yeah. Because there is you got to keep on practicing. That's the human part of it. And that's why AI will not replace doctors because one AI is not compassionate above all else but so on and so forth. But yeah, exactly. So um so do that then do a moisturizer and then topical sunscreen mineral-based sunscreen. So they have a tinted trust me five years ago if you said would you use a tinted sunscreen? I'd be like what are you talking about? But that's my go-to. So, what you need is tinted um just like I mean I'm pretty pale and so it gives you a little color but um tinted or otherwise but SPF 75 sorry Paul Saladino uh ionizing radiation is still ionizing radiation. Yeah. And and the weathered look is out. Yeah. like especially for men in in Colorado for example um there's been a big I see a big shift or trend now more
big I see a big shift or trend now more and more men are coming in like okay I got to do something but the thing is men and women just need to be starting much much earlier start literally start on a retinoid in your 20s that's true story for me and that's the tininoan that's tininoan treinoan's optimal but okay wait we got to wrap this cuz Ed probably the we got to get Ed's probably going to see me and like swearing under his breath. It's actually okay to do three and a half hours. It's just probably not the greatest on a Saturday when he you know what I mean because I don't really care but he's probably like really pissed. Okay. Anyway, um I will get get a gift card actually. Um Jonathan, this is part one of a podcast. We're going to do like another one. I'd love it. Super soon. Now, when can you come back? Oh, man. We're going to have to figure it out. When do you think you can come back? I'm like on the spot this moment. I probably going to be be a few weeks. I've got Toronto coming up. I got Argentina coming up. We got a lot. It's okay. Don't worry. I'm leaving town, too. We can do No, we we will I would love to and and I will say this just outright for your audience, like fire fire the questions away. I mean, I think there's so much opportunity to improve upon a lot of the assumptions that exist and there the thing I stress is it's not about right or wrong. I get that the algorithm favors controversy and really extremes, but the truth lies in the nuance and if we simplify down to things that move the needle most. Yes, I agree with Am I critical about all these different stacks and biohacks? No. What what moves a needle most is movement. 100%. Right. Yep. What's the second thing? Sleep is foundational. If it's if Sleep. Sleep is foundational. If it's off, and I'll go so far as to say this, my clients know this to be true.
this, my clients know this to be true. Do what you have to do to get quality sleep. What I mean by that is if it requires a pharmaceutical agent for you to get quality sleep, quality sleep is the metric. What do you think is more important, sleep or movement? Um, if it really was one against the other, I'd say movement. Movement is is way more impactful for metabolic health. I think so too. I sleep is what people and again deal the niche I sort of practice in in my practice. High performers. That's the name of the game. Look, we're both wearing our same thing. Yeah. And the the commonality between high performers, high output individuals is the wheels are always going. Yeah. So I would say most consistently the most common issue I see with clients that's correctable is sleep hygiene, sleep architecture. This is uh you guys it's Dr. Jonathan Chef. He is as you can see a fountain of information. Um this has been very informative. Go follow him. We're going to do another part two hopefully maybe a part three. I could keep on going. I've got great endurance. We can go for another hour, but yeah, [laughter] we got to find it. Okay, guys, if you have not subscribed, by the way, to this podcast, I should have said this at the beginning, please subscribe. Um, it really helps with everything. And give me some feedback on uh stuff you like to hear uh things that you you've been, you know, you want more information on, less information on, and everything in between. So, thank you for listening. Thank you for coming to the podcast. My pleasure. Thank you. And we'll see you soon. Bye-bye.
Transcript auto-generated by YouTube. Verbatim — duplicates intentionally preserved.
This conversation is not an argument against curiosity. It is an argument for discernment. The body deserves better than borrowed certainty.
Schoeff returns to a distinction that matters: mechanistic data can be interesting without being clinically meaningful. A result in a cell model, animal study, or narrow pathway does not automatically become a human outcome.
In plain language, “there is evidence” is not enough. The important questions are what kind of evidence, in whom, at what dose, with what risk, and compared with what alternative.
The discussion around BPC-157, TB-500, and the so-called Wolverine stack shows how quickly wellness culture can move past the basic question. People debate combinations before establishing whether the intervention reliably works in humans.
That is where restraint becomes protective. Peptides may be biologically active, but activity is not the same as safety, efficacy, or a protocol worth following. A serious recovery practice does not need to borrow confidence from incomplete science.
Schoeff applies the same clarity to GLP-1 medications. They can improve insulin sensitivity and help some people change metabolic trajectory, but they are still tools. They require context, supervision, and a broader plan.
The best medicine does not turn one intervention into an identity. It asks what the person needs, what the evidence supports, and how the choice fits the long arc of healthspan.
The strongest practical thread is muscle. Schoeff connects muscle with metabolic health, insulin sensitivity, glucose handling, and resilience over time. This is less glamorous than a new compound, which is partly why it matters.
Muscle is not only strength. It is metabolic capacity. It gives the body somewhere to store glucose, a reserve to draw from, and a foundation for independence as the decades move.
"The body deserves better than borrowed certainty."
Ask what kind of evidence supports a claim before accepting the claim itself.
Be cautious with peptide marketing, especially when human outcomes are unclear.
Prioritize muscle, metabolic health, and medical context before chasing advanced longevity tools.
Ask what kind of evidence supports a claim before accepting the claim itself. Be cautious with peptide marketing, especially when human outcomes are unclear. Prioritize muscle, metabolic health, and medical context before chasing advanced longevity tools.
