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I made a decision that I was going to take the risk of dying of prostate take the risk of dying of prostate cancer rather than take the risk of cancer rather than take the risk of going through the treatment. Biopsy was going through the treatment. Biopsy was the worst pain they've ever had. You the worst pain they've ever had. You were met with a high PSA measurement were met with a high PSA measurement from your doctor, which was pointing from your doctor, which was pointing towards having to get your prostate towards having to get your prostate removed. removed. >> It took 4 months for me to have the >> It took 4 months for me to have the courage to go back to the lab and courage to go back to the lab and reme-measure. We wrote a little article. reme-measure. We wrote a little article. Nobody read it until Joe [music] Rogan Nobody read it until Joe [music] Rogan found it. People think their bodies found it. People think their bodies should be treated like machines. should be treated like machines. Machines do one thing over and over and Machines do one thing over and over and over again really well until they wear over again really well until they wear out. Bodies aren't like that. Countdown. out. Bodies aren't like that. Countdown. 5 4 3 2 1. It's kind of tricking your 5 4 3 2 1. It's kind of tricking your brain into saying it's go time. brain into saying it's go time. >> Morning everybody. Uh welcome to a very >> Morning everybody. Uh welcome to a very special episode of this show. Normally special episode of this show. Normally the show is all about, you know, the show is all about, you know, finance, investing, whether that be in finance, investing, whether that be in stocks, whether that be in Bitcoin or in stocks, whether that be in Bitcoin or in crypto, but I think that health goes
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crypto, but I think that health goes handinhand with investing. You have to handinhand with investing. You have to be around to enjoy uh your investments, be around to enjoy uh your investments, right? And so I've been taking health right? And so I've been taking health seriously now for really the better part seriously now for really the better part of a decade. And one of the people that of a decade. And one of the people that I've been following recently uh is I've been following recently uh is Thomas Sager, who's joining us today. Thomas Sager, who's joining us today. Welcome to the show, Thomas. Welcome to the show, Thomas. >> Hey, thanks for having me on, Pio. >> Hey, thanks for having me on, Pio. >> Of course. And so you've done a ton of >> Of course. And so you've done a ton of podcasts and people can go and you know podcasts and people can go and you know listen to your podcast where you you listen to your podcast where you you kind of go through your entire uh origin kind of go through your entire uh origin story. I wanted to kind of give a TLDDR story. I wanted to kind of give a TLDDR here and get you know sort of right into here and get you know sort of right into it. So, my understanding from listening it. So, my understanding from listening to you on different podcasts is that to you on different podcasts is that essentially you uh were met with a high essentially you uh were met with a high PSA uh measurement from your doctor, PSA uh measurement from your doctor, which was, you know, pointing towards which was, you know, pointing towards having to get your prostate removed, uh, having to get your prostate removed, uh, which is a big thing to have happen. And which is a big thing to have happen. And you were able to actually lower that uh you were able to actually lower that uh reading by quite a bit to a normal range reading by quite a bit to a normal range via cold plunging every single day. Um, via cold plunging every single day. Um, I'm assuming to reduce inflammation and I'm assuming to reduce inflammation and and a whole lot of other stuff. And and a whole lot of other stuff. And we'll talk about it. And in the process,
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we'll talk about it. And in the process, what you found was that actually what you found was that actually increased your testosterone quite a bit increased your testosterone quite a bit at like 50 years old or over 50 years at like 50 years old or over 50 years old to north of a thousand without any old to north of a thousand without any TRT, without any sort of um exogenous TRT, without any sort of um exogenous testosterone uh supplementation. Do I testosterone uh supplementation. Do I kind of have that right? kind of have that right? >> You've been doing your homework, Pio. Uh >> You've been doing your homework, Pio. Uh you know, I'm a university professor of you know, I'm a university professor of engineering at Arizona State, so I got engineering at Arizona State, so I got to give you an A uh for being ready for to give you an A uh for being ready for class. class. >> Well, thank you. So, did you are And you >> Well, thank you. So, did you are And you have a business. You have Morazzco, have a business. You have Morazzco, which are I mean I think Joe Rogan has which are I mean I think Joe Rogan has one. Like these are like known as some one. Like these are like known as some of the best um cold plunges on the of the best um cold plunges on the market. Had you already started that market. Had you already started that business before this whole uh prostate business before this whole uh prostate thing happened or was that afterwards? thing happened or was that afterwards? >> They were coincident. I had my PSA lab >> They were coincident. I had my PSA lab report. It came back at seven and it report. It came back at seven and it said anything over four and that means said anything over four and that means you have an inflamed prostate. It you have an inflamed prostate. It doesn't necessarily mean you have doesn't necessarily mean you have cancer. But I went online and I started cancer. But I went online and I started looking up, you know, what is this PSA looking up, you know, what is this PSA test and it only takes 20 minutes of,
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test and it only takes 20 minutes of, you know, googling around to convince you know, googling around to convince yourself that you're gonna die. I got yourself that you're gonna die. I got really scared. I started talking to really scared. I started talking to other guys about it and they told me the other guys about it and they told me the biopsy was the worst pain they've ever biopsy was the worst pain they've ever had. Some of them told me that their had. Some of them told me that their results were sort of inconclusive, like results were sort of inconclusive, like they had 16 samples and nine of them they had 16 samples and nine of them popped positive, but their false popped positive, but their false positive rate is they didn't really know positive rate is they didn't really know what to do, so they had their prostate what to do, so they had their prostate out. Now they can't get an erection for out. Now they can't get an erection for the rest of their life. So my brain is the rest of their life. So my brain is catastrophizing. I got one of those catastrophizing. I got one of those Sears. I don't even know if they're in Sears. I don't even know if they're in business anymore, but I got like a big business anymore, but I got like a big chest freezer. I felt like a piece of chest freezer. I felt like a piece of meat getting into that thing. And I was meat getting into that thing. And I was determined that I was going to avoid the determined that I was going to avoid the urologist, avoid the alopathic urologist, avoid the alopathic centralized medicine, avoid all this centralized medicine, avoid all this crap. And I did. It took four months for crap. And I did. It took four months for me to have the courage to go back to the me to have the courage to go back to the lab and rememeasure and my PSA came back lab and rememeasure and my PSA came back 1.8. So in the interim, I'm going in
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1.8. So in the interim, I'm going in here every day and I'm getting really here every day and I'm getting really curious now about how to do this better. curious now about how to do this better. I live in Phoenix, Arizona, which is I live in Phoenix, Arizona, which is like the hottest city in North America. like the hottest city in North America. So, my former student and I, we said, So, my former student and I, we said, "We're engineers. You know, we shouldn't "We're engineers. You know, we shouldn't be having to buy chest freezers or ice be having to buy chest freezers or ice at the gas station. We ought to be able at the gas station. We ought to be able to invent one of these ourselves." So, to invent one of these ourselves." So, we did. That was the birth of Morasco. we did. That was the birth of Morasco. It was in this period in which I thought It was in this period in which I thought ice baths were fun at first and, you ice baths were fun at first and, you know, that's cool. But when I started know, that's cool. But when I started getting in there every day, it wasn't, getting in there every day, it wasn't, you know, to recover from a workout. It you know, to recover from a workout. It was because I thought I had cancer. POI was because I thought I had cancer. POI probably didn't like the the PSA is a probably didn't like the the PSA is a measure of inflammation. It is measure of inflammation. It is associated with increased cancer risk. associated with increased cancer risk. It is not a cancer diagnosis. But once It is not a cancer diagnosis. But once you wind up in a urologist's office, you wind up in a urologist's office, he's going to start telling you, well, he's going to start telling you, well, you know, to be sure, and I made a you know, to be sure, and I made a decision that I was going to take the decision that I was going to take the risk of dying of prostate cancer rather
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risk of dying of prostate cancer rather than take the risk of going through the than take the risk of going through the treatment for it when that worked. Yeah. treatment for it when that worked. Yeah. and and I pulled my labs again and my and and I pulled my labs again and my testosterone came back 1180 nanogs per testosterone came back 1180 nanogs per deciliter. My partner Jason Stalfer, the deciliter. My partner Jason Stalfer, the one who invented the Barasco Forge with one who invented the Barasco Forge with me. He said, "Well, that doesn't make me. He said, "Well, that doesn't make any sense. I don't believe that. That's any sense. I don't believe that. That's that doesn't work." And so he started that doesn't work." And so he started doing it and he got his up to the 900s. doing it and he got his up to the 900s. Like he was in the 600s before. He's 10 Like he was in the 600s before. He's 10 years younger than me. He gets up into years younger than me. He gets up into the 900s. He goes, "I guess it works." the 900s. He goes, "I guess it works." So we wrote a little article. Nobody So we wrote a little article. Nobody read it until Joe Rogan found it, read it until Joe Rogan found it, decided he wanted to try it, had David decided he wanted to try it, had David Gogggins on his podcast. I remember it Gogggins on his podcast. I remember it very well because I was in Iceland at very well because I was in Iceland at the time and my phone started blowing up the time and my phone started blowing up and I thought my friends were like and I thought my friends were like trying to prank me. They're like, "Hey, trying to prank me. They're like, "Hey, you're on the Joe Rogan show, you know, you're on the Joe Rogan show, you know, and I'm like, "Haha, I think I would
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and I'm like, "Haha, I think I would know first, you know, before you." And know first, you know, before you." And they're like, "No, no, no. He put your they're like, "No, no, no. He put your picture up there. He read your story." picture up there. He read your story." And David Gogggins is incredulous. He's And David Gogggins is incredulous. He's like, "Well, how's that working for like, "Well, how's that working for you?" Joe says, "It's really hard and you?" Joe says, "It's really hard and it's working." Now, I get like reports it's working." Now, I get like reports from guys all over the world, women too, from guys all over the world, women too, saying, "I used the protocol. I read saying, "I used the protocol. I read your article. My testosterone is way your article. My testosterone is way higher than it was." And there's still higher than it was." And there's still people, you know, on Instagram and people, you know, on Instagram and Twitter who don't believe this work. Twitter who don't believe this work. >> Wow. So, okay. So, let's dive into that. >> Wow. So, okay. So, let's dive into that. So, just so people understand, the order So, just so people understand, the order of operations here is cold plunge, then of operations here is cold plunge, then some sort of physical activity, right? some sort of physical activity, right? Not the other way around. It's not going Not the other way around. It's not going a heavy workout and do a bunch of a heavy workout and do a bunch of deadlifts, do your entire weightlifting deadlifts, do your entire weightlifting workout, and then cold plunge because workout, and then cold plunge because that's just not optimized. That actually that's just not optimized. That actually could could >> I'm not saying it's bad for you. I I >> I'm not saying it's bad for you. I I still think it's good for you, but still think it's good for you, but that's not how to build your that's not how to build your testosterone. That's not how to, you testosterone. That's not how to, you know, if you want to set a personal know, if you want to set a personal best, pre-quool your workout. Because
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best, pre-quool your workout. Because when you cool the muscles and you cool when you cool the muscles and you cool the blood down before you go to work the blood down before you go to work out, your mitochondria can do so much out, your mitochondria can do so much more work before they become fatigued. more work before they become fatigued. So everything that I don't know if you So everything that I don't know if you were in high school and you ran track, were in high school and you ran track, you played football or something and you played football or something and your coach said, "Now you got to get your coach said, "Now you got to get into that garbage can full of ice to into that garbage can full of ice to recover." It's not like the coach was recover." It's not like the coach was wrong. When you're doing those two a wrong. When you're doing those two a days in August in high school football, days in August in high school football, you need to avoid hypothermia, avoid the you need to avoid hypothermia, avoid the doms, the delayed onset muscle soreness. doms, the delayed onset muscle soreness. And so doing an ice bath after your And so doing an ice bath after your workout can get you back into workout can get you back into performance shape for maybe you're doing performance shape for maybe you're doing two days or maybe you're coming back to two days or maybe you're coming back to football camp the next day. But that's football camp the next day. But that's not a recipe for long-term metabolic not a recipe for long-term metabolic health or for testosterone boosting. health or for testosterone boosting. That's a specific sort of training That's a specific sort of training regimen that is trying to get people regimen that is trying to get people into shape for their season. I'm 59
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into shape for their season. I'm 59 years old. I'm a fat sedentary college years old. I'm a fat sedentary college professor and I don't care what Bolain professor and I don't care what Bolain says. I I don't deadlift and I'm not says. I I don't deadlift and I'm not going to start that practice. You know, going to start that practice. You know, I write articles and stuff. I'm more I write articles and stuff. I'm more concerned about the health of my brain concerned about the health of my brain than I am, you know, about my sprint than I am, you know, about my sprint speed in the 40. And so I have a speed in the 40. And so I have a different approach than the extreme different approach than the extreme athletes might. Now you go look at Craig athletes might. Now you go look at Craig Heler when he had the 49ers football Heler when he had the 49ers football players into his lab at Stanford players into his lab at Stanford University and he studied cooling and University and he studied cooling and exercise. He discovered a huge boost in exercise. He discovered a huge boost in peak power. These guys could do dips all peak power. These guys could do dips all day. they never got fatigued because the day. they never got fatigued because the more heat he extracted from their body, more heat he extracted from their body, the more work that they could do. Craig the more work that they could do. Craig said, "Well, that's, you know, that's said, "Well, that's, you know, that's fascinating with professional athletes." fascinating with professional athletes." Then he took some of his graduate Then he took some of his graduate students and he said, "All right, you students and he said, "All right, you guys, you know, you're not pros. You're guys, you know, you're not pros. You're not all trained up. Let's see what you
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not all trained up. Let's see what you can do." And they went from, you know, can do." And they went from, you know, four pull-ups or something, and I'm four pull-ups or something, and I'm making up these numbers, but they're making up these numbers, but they're directionally correct. When they cooled, directionally correct. When they cooled, they could do 11. They got huge they could do 11. They got huge improvements in what their muscles were improvements in what their muscles were capable of by cooling before and the way capable of by cooling before and the way Heler did it between their sets. Now, Heler did it between their sets. Now, there's something super significant. If there's something super significant. If you're discovering this reliable result you're discovering this reliable result that comes from pre-cooling, at what that comes from pre-cooling, at what point are you going to, you know, stop point are you going to, you know, stop listening to the Jim Bros on Twitter and listening to the Jim Bros on Twitter and say, "Maybe I should give that a try. say, "Maybe I should give that a try. See if it works for me." See if it works for me." >> For sure. And I guess beyond just this >> For sure. And I guess beyond just this single thing of athletic performance of single thing of athletic performance of testosterone boosting um does cold testosterone boosting um does cold plunge kind of bleed and doing it this plunge kind of bleed and doing it this way like before physical activity before way like before physical activity before a workout does this bleed into other a workout does this bleed into other areas of health specifically like for areas of health specifically like for example people talk a lot about gut example people talk a lot about gut health right now right that's like a a health right now right that's like a a big thing is actually something that big thing is actually something that they've talked about for about 10 years they've talked about for about 10 years but I think uh the the topic that's but I think uh the the topic that's discussed the most right now is gut discussed the most right now is gut health in relation to like things like
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health in relation to like things like testosterone like hormone health right testosterone like hormone health right and the relationship between those two and the relationship between those two things can cold plunge play a factor things can cold plunge play a factor there. I don't know if it's because of there. I don't know if it's because of inflammation reduction or anything else. inflammation reduction or anything else. >> Bleed is the wrong metaphor. Um because >> Bleed is the wrong metaphor. Um because I think I know what you're trying to I think I know what you're trying to say. Uh but I'm going to use a different say. Uh but I'm going to use a different way of describing it. There are some way of describing it. There are some therapies that are systemic. They work therapies that are systemic. They work on the entire body. Exercise is one of on the entire body. Exercise is one of those. And this is something that a lot those. And this is something that a lot of the guys on Twitter get right. If you of the guys on Twitter get right. If you do just a little bit of exercise, it do just a little bit of exercise, it makes you smarter. It reduces your risk makes you smarter. It reduces your risk of dementia later in life. And how the of dementia later in life. And how the hell does that happen, Pio? It's not hell does that happen, Pio? It's not like your brain was doing the push-ups. like your brain was doing the push-ups. But if you just get, you know, 6,000 But if you just get, you know, 6,000 steps a day when you were at just steps a day when you were at just several hundred. Now everything in your several hundred. Now everything in your body improves, your risk of disease goes body improves, your risk of disease goes down, your all cause mortality goes down, your all cause mortality goes down, longevity goes up, and your brain down, longevity goes up, and your brain functions better because exercise is a functions better because exercise is a systemic hormetic stressor. Sunshine,
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systemic hormetic stressor. Sunshine, same thing. Cold plunge, same thing. The same thing. Cold plunge, same thing. The pharmaceutical industry has convinced us pharmaceutical industry has convinced us that you can take one pill for one that you can take one pill for one symptom and that's going to be the magic symptom and that's going to be the magic dose that like alleviates whatever your dose that like alleviates whatever your condition is. They want you to believe condition is. They want you to believe that all the rest of the things that that all the rest of the things that happen in your body are side effects. happen in your body are side effects. And that's all [ __ ] PO. There's no And that's all [ __ ] PO. There's no such thing as a side effect. There are such thing as a side effect. There are only effects. Pills create all these only effects. Pills create all these other adverse unintended consequences in other adverse unintended consequences in your body. Cold plunge, we're going to your body. Cold plunge, we're going to talk about hormesis in a second. Cold talk about hormesis in a second. Cold plunge, exercise, a clean diet, plunge, exercise, a clean diet, sunshine, these things are systemic sunshine, these things are systemic therapies that make everything in your therapies that make everything in your body work better. But when I say body work better. But when I say hormetic stress, what I mean is you hormetic stress, what I mean is you don't get enough, your health is don't get enough, your health is adversely impacted. You add a little adversely impacted. You add a little bit, health improves. If you do too
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bit, health improves. If you do too much, too much exercise, too much much, too much exercise, too much sunshine, too much of anything, sunshine, too much of anything, including cold, then your health begins including cold, then your health begins to go back down again. Your body needs to go back down again. Your body needs that that variability. You need exercise that that variability. You need exercise and rest. You need light. You need dark. and rest. You need light. You need dark. You need feast. You need fasting. You You need feast. You need fasting. You need cold. And you need This is one of need cold. And you need This is one of the things that's most misunderstood. the things that's most misunderstood. People think their bodies should be People think their bodies should be treated like machines. It's just the treated like machines. It's just the opposite. Machines do one thing over and opposite. Machines do one thing over and over and over again really well until over and over again really well until they wear out. Bodies aren't like that. they wear out. Bodies aren't like that. Bodies are living systems. Bodies need Bodies are living systems. Bodies need lots of different things so that they lots of different things so that they don't wear out because we're capable of don't wear out because we're capable of restoring ourselves, of adapting to restoring ourselves, of adapting to those stressors. those stressors. >> That makes perfect sense to me. And >> That makes perfect sense to me. And actually, you touched on something that actually, you touched on something that I wanted to get to. we can we can touch I wanted to get to. we can we can touch on it now which is you know think people on it now which is you know think people bring up things like overtraining right bring up things like overtraining right and they bring up the idea of maybe and they bring up the idea of maybe doing something like a coal plunge too doing something like a coal plunge too much or something like that a sauna too
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much or something like that a sauna too much right but I so I think that's much right but I so I think that's applicable if you're like a crossfit applicable if you're like a crossfit athlete and you're training for the athlete and you're training for the CrossFit games or something like that or CrossFit games or something like that or you're a pro athlete right most people you're a pro athlete right most people are actually in a place where they're are actually in a place where they're trying to exercise more I I think most trying to exercise more I I think most average American people for example if average American people for example if you took a survey and they had to answer you took a survey and they had to answer honestly they would not say you know I'm honestly they would not say you know I'm just exercising a little bit too much just exercising a little bit too much right So, so for me, I'm trying to get right So, so for me, I'm trying to get in the cold plunge pretty much every day in the cold plunge pretty much every day because I'm trying to do that every day because I'm trying to do that every day and I and I run a business and I have to and I and I run a business and I have to travel for work. As a result, I don't travel for work. As a result, I don't get in the cold plunge every single day, get in the cold plunge every single day, but I have these great streaks where I'm but I have these great streaks where I'm in there four four times in a row, then in there four four times in a row, then the next day I miss it, then I'm back in the next day I miss it, then I'm back in there three times in a row. So, it's there three times in a row. So, it's like seven out of eight days or like seven out of eight days or something like that. Is that too much something like that. Is that too much when it comes to doing the cold? when it comes to doing the cold? >> No, not the way you're doing it. I mean, >> No, not the way you're doing it. I mean, you're driving to the gym, you're you're driving to the gym, you're getting into a, you know, 50 degree getting into a, you know, 50 degree pool. You stay in there five minutes. pool. You stay in there five minutes. It's very healthy for you. You're in It's very healthy for you. You're in southern Florida and you could try the southern Florida and you could try the Atlantic Ocean. Even this winter, that's Atlantic Ocean. Even this winter, that's not going to be cold enough. That's not
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not going to be cold enough. That's not what your body is made for. You need what your body is made for. You need something a little bit colder. But something a little bit colder. But travel is a problem. Uh, I'll do cold travel is a problem. Uh, I'll do cold showers sometimes when I'm on the road, showers sometimes when I'm on the road, and I hate cold showers. I've hated and I hate cold showers. I've hated every minute of every cold shower. It's every minute of every cold shower. It's so much harder than the cold plunge. so much harder than the cold plunge. Cold shower is so much harder than the Cold shower is so much harder than the plunge. plunge. >> Agreed. There's a good clinical trial on >> Agreed. There's a good clinical trial on that. Partial versus whole body cold that. Partial versus whole body cold water immersion. Partial will get you water immersion. Partial will get you revved up. It will activate your revved up. It will activate your sympathetic division of the autonomic sympathetic division of the autonomic nervous system. That's the fight nervous system. That's the fight orflight panic response. The cold shower orflight panic response. The cold shower will never bring you back down. But the will never bring you back down. But the whole body, you will also get the dive whole body, you will also get the dive reflex. That's the parasympathetic rest reflex. That's the parasympathetic rest and digest. So, you have different and digest. So, you have different physiological and psychological physiological and psychological responses in the cold shower and the responses in the cold shower and the cold plunge. But since you got to get to cold plunge. But since you got to get to the gym and you're only doing it at 50°, the gym and you're only doing it at 50°, I I don't think it's possible for you I I don't think it's possible for you what the way you've described your what the way you've described your routine to be getting too much. If you
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routine to be getting too much. If you had a Morazzco at home, then you'd had a Morazzco at home, then you'd probably get in it more often because probably get in it more often because you wouldn't have to, I don't know, get you wouldn't have to, I don't know, get your sneakers on and get in the car or your sneakers on and get in the car or something like that. And you'd keep it something like that. And you'd keep it at 34 degrees because, you know, you at 34 degrees because, you know, you watch my Instagram or you see Joe Rogan watch my Instagram or you see Joe Rogan with the ice chunks floating in there or with the ice chunks floating in there or something. And we get in our head, you something. And we get in our head, you know, we're competitive, especially the know, we're competitive, especially the type of work that you do. We have a type of work that you do. We have a competitive streak in us. And it's not competitive streak in us. And it's not just because we're dudes. There was a just because we're dudes. There was a 13-year-old girl who was a the daughter 13-year-old girl who was a the daughter of a friend of mine. She saw Joe Rogan of a friend of mine. She saw Joe Rogan do 20 minutes. She said, "I can beat do 20 minutes. She said, "I can beat that record." Yeah, that record." Yeah, >> she was in there for half a freaking >> she was in there for half a freaking hour and she could barely walk when she hour and she could barely walk when she came out. Now, now it's okay. There's no came out. Now, now it's okay. There's no permanent damage if you overdo it. Just permanent damage if you overdo it. Just get rewarmed and have a nap. Don't get rewarmed and have a nap. Don't operate any heavy machinery. But the operate any heavy machinery. But the point is, if you're like, I train six point is, if you're like, I train six hours a week and I do it really hard and hours a week and I do it really hard and then I do 20 minutes at 34 degrees. then I do 20 minutes at 34 degrees. Professor Seager, I don't understand why
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Professor Seager, I don't understand why my testosterone isn't going up. That's my testosterone isn't going up. That's because you're not giving your because you're not giving your mitochondria a break. You're not giving mitochondria a break. You're not giving your body time to recover from all the your body time to recover from all the stress that you're putting on it. You're stress that you're putting on it. You're past hormetic stress curve. past hormetic stress curve. [clears throat] Would you maybe get some [clears throat] Would you maybe get some sleep and take a day off? sleep and take a day off? >> Sure. So, you can overdo it, but it's >> Sure. So, you can overdo it, but it's unrealistic with like how a normal unrealistic with like how a normal person might be operating going to a gym person might be operating going to a gym that happens to have a cold plunge. You that happens to have a cold plunge. You and I briefly were talking off air that and I briefly were talking off air that it's hard for those in gym in ground it's hard for those in gym in ground cold plunges to be maintained at a lower cold plunges to be maintained at a lower temperature. I'm going to buy a temperature. I'm going to buy a thermometer and bring it to my gym and thermometer and bring it to my gym and and just check on it. Maybe five five and just check on it. Maybe five five samples of the temperature. I'll let you samples of the temperature. I'll let you know. Um I was pinging you on Twitter know. Um I was pinging you on Twitter about sauna because I've been a long uh about sauna because I've been a long uh fan of the sauna. My understanding is fan of the sauna. My understanding is that you know these studies that have that you know these studies that have come out have shown that the sauna is come out have shown that the sauna is just undeniably healthy for you. You've just undeniably healthy for you. You've pointed out that in Finland the word pointed out that in Finland the word sauna means cold and hot which is very sauna means cold and hot which is very interesting. I think a lot of people interesting. I think a lot of people don't know that. don't know that. >> That's because Ronda Patrick hasn't told >> That's because Ronda Patrick hasn't told them that. Rhonda Patrick will do a, you them that. Rhonda Patrick will do a, you know, a a real and she'll say, "If you
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know, a a real and she'll say, "If you sauna, just 40 minutes a week or sauna, just 40 minutes a week or whatever it is, don't quote me on the whatever it is, don't quote me on the numbers, reduces your all cause numbers, reduces your all cause mortality by 9,000%." Or something like, mortality by 9,000%." Or something like, "Oh my god, if I don't sauna, I'm going "Oh my god, if I don't sauna, I'm going to die." But she forgets to tell you to die." But she forgets to tell you that that those studies were done in that that those studies were done in Finland. The word sona is the only word Finland. The word sona is the only word in the Finnish language that has been in the Finnish language that has been adopted into English. The Finns, they're adopted into English. The Finns, they're not a Scandinavian country. They've been not a Scandinavian country. They've been getting their butts kicked by the Swedes getting their butts kicked by the Swedes or the Russians. You know that their or the Russians. You know that their country is very new. They have a new country is very new. They have a new sort of culture. They have their own sort of culture. They have their own language. And Sona is a Finnish language. And Sona is a Finnish tradition that they study better than tradition that they study better than anyone else in the world. When you read anyone else in the world. When you read their papers, Sona means cold and hot their papers, Sona means cold and hot together. And fourth, it's thermal together. And fourth, it's thermal contrast therapy. But then a guy in contrast therapy. But then a guy in Florida, you know, sees Rhonda and he's Florida, you know, sees Rhonda and he's like, "All right, I'm get I'm I'm doing like, "All right, I'm get I'm I'm doing it right, just like Linan told me." It's it right, just like Linan told me." It's not it. You got to get the cold. If you not it. You got to get the cold. If you want the results that the fins are
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want the results that the fins are getting, you got to get the cold that getting, you got to get the cold that the fins use. And I'm not really dunking the fins use. And I'm not really dunking on sauna. Sweating out is great. There's on sauna. Sweating out is great. There's some really good observations of some really good observations of firefighters, for example. They have an firefighters, for example. They have an active building fire and they can't help active building fire and they can't help but breathe smoke even though they have but breathe smoke even though they have their, you know, breathing apparatus on their, you know, breathing apparatus on and their spouses will tell them they and their spouses will tell them they smell like smoke for three freaking days smell like smoke for three freaking days after. They know this. It doesn't matter after. They know this. It doesn't matter how much they shower, but they do their how much they shower, but they do their sweat in the sauna and those toxins are sweat in the sauna and those toxins are going to leave the body through their going to leave the body through their sweat. When you sweat, you got to sweat. When you sweat, you got to replenish electrolytes. It's not like replenish electrolytes. It's not like you're just sweating out water and you're just sweating out water and toxins. You get your electrolytes in and toxins. You get your electrolytes in and the sona can still be very healthy. It's the sona can still be very healthy. It's an exercise mimedic. Your heart rate an exercise mimedic. Your heart rate will go up. Your blood vessels will will go up. Your blood vessels will dilate. It is good for your blood dilate. It is good for your blood pressure, your metabolism, and your pressure, your metabolism, and your cardiovascular health. Just don't start cardiovascular health. Just don't start quoting lanin unless you're going to quoting lanin unless you're going to talk about the research method that
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talk about the research method that linen uses. linen uses. >> That makes sense. And uh the sauna is >> That makes sense. And uh the sauna is obviously a lot easier than the cold obviously a lot easier than the cold plunge. Like the sauna can get pretty plunge. Like the sauna can get pretty intense after like 20 25 minutes, but intense after like 20 25 minutes, but it's a much more enjoyable experience it's a much more enjoyable experience for most people than the cold plunch. I for most people than the cold plunch. I like the cold plunge, but when you first like the cold plunge, but when you first get in, you start gasping and it's cold, get in, you start gasping and it's cold, right? And and you have to kind of get right? And and you have to kind of get through it. Um, you brought up blood through it. Um, you brought up blood pressure. Uh, when you think about cold pressure. Uh, when you think about cold plunge, do you think cold plunge has a plunge, do you think cold plunge has a positive impact on blood pressure positive impact on blood pressure >> over the long term? Cold and sauna are >> over the long term? Cold and sauna are different in this respect. I don't think different in this respect. I don't think that that sauna is easier than cold that that sauna is easier than cold plunge. I think you just know when to plunge. I think you just know when to get out. The stress curve with Sona, it get out. The stress curve with Sona, it starts easy and then it gets a little starts easy and then it gets a little harder and a little harder and a little harder and a little harder and a little harder and you stay past the point when harder and you stay past the point when you think you can't take it anymore for you think you can't take it anymore for maybe two extra minutes and then you get maybe two extra minutes and then you get out. And so the stress keeps increasing out. And so the stress keeps increasing over time. Almost all hormetic stressors over time. Almost all hormetic stressors are like this. You start exercising, are like this. You start exercising, maybe you're doing the treadmill and maybe you're doing the treadmill and you're like, "Oh, you know, this is you're like, "Oh, you know, this is pretty good." Or you're doing the pretty good." Or you're doing the stairmaster, I don't know. or you're
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stairmaster, I don't know. or you're doing whatever cardio thing and you're doing whatever cardio thing and you're like, "Oh, yeah. I can throw this tire like, "Oh, yeah. I can throw this tire around. I can do this weight." But it around. I can do this weight." But it gets harder and harder and then you feel gets harder and harder and then you feel like you're going to throw up. Well, like you're going to throw up. Well, every hormetic stressor that we have every hormetic stressor that we have experience with gets worse over time, experience with gets worse over time, except cold plunge. Cold plunge is except cold plunge. Cold plunge is terrible. The worst part of the ice bath terrible. The worst part of the ice bath is the 15 minutes you spend staring at is the 15 minutes you spend staring at your ice bath thinking I could I could your ice bath thinking I could I could maybe skip a day. You know, I I probably maybe skip a day. You know, I I probably don't. Joe Rogan says it. He says it to don't. Joe Rogan says it. He says it to Matthew McConna. He says almost don't Matthew McConna. He says almost don't get in every single day because the get in every single day because the anticipation of that shock is it like anticipation of that shock is it like catastrophizing in our mind and then you catastrophizing in our mind and then you get in and the first 15 seconds suck. get in and the first 15 seconds suck. You're in paras or you're in sympathetic You're in paras or you're in sympathetic fight orflight mode. think you're going fight orflight mode. think you're going to die because every experience we've to die because every experience we've ever had is if it's this bad right now, ever had is if it's this bad right now, what's it going to be like a minute, two what's it going to be like a minute, two minutes later and then after 30 seconds
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minutes later and then after 30 seconds your dive reflex kicks in, everything your dive reflex kicks in, everything relaxes and you go, what was I worried relaxes and you go, what was I worried about? Like what is a big deal here? And about? Like what is a big deal here? And then you do it all over again the next then you do it all over again the next day. So the cold plunge feels like it day. So the cold plunge feels like it sucks worse first, but once you sucks worse first, but once you understand that the hormetic stress understand that the hormetic stress curve is just different in time, then curve is just different in time, then you can get over that initial hurdle. you can get over that initial hurdle. You can say, "I'm just Roen." [laughter] You can say, "I'm just Roen." [laughter] You can kill your inner [ __ ] You can kill your inner [ __ ] >> Yeah, that's how he describes it. >> Yeah, that's how he describes it. >> Yeah. You just get in there. There's no >> Yeah. You just get in there. There's no negotiation. You say, "Ah, this is gonna negotiation. You say, "Ah, this is gonna suck and I'm gonna do it again." suck and I'm gonna do it again." >> Yeah. The way you think about it with >> Yeah. The way you think about it with the inner [ __ ] that's a good the inner [ __ ] that's a good description. I struggled with that when description. I struggled with that when I first started getting into the coal I first started getting into the coal plunge, which was earlier this year. plunge, which was earlier this year. It's really something I never had access It's really something I never had access to one in New York where I was living to one in New York where I was living before. Um, there aren't that many coal before. Um, there aren't that many coal plunges in New York City. There actually plunges in New York City. There actually are not. are not. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You have to join like a coal plunge >> You have to join like a coal plunge dedicated facility. And in New York, you
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dedicated facility. And in New York, you know, you're tacking on another $300 to know, you're tacking on another $300 to $500 per month minimum probably to go in $500 per month minimum probably to go in addition to your probably $200 a month addition to your probably $200 a month gym membership. So, it gets really out gym membership. So, it gets really out of control. But here in Miami, there's of control. But here in Miami, there's so many places that have cold plunges. so many places that have cold plunges. So when I first started going, my So when I first started going, my teammate who grew up water skiing in teammate who grew up water skiing in Seattle and his dad would bring them Seattle and his dad would bring them out, you know, the whole family at like out, you know, the whole family at like 5 in the morning be like, "All right, 5 in the morning be like, "All right, get in the water." He's used to cold get in the water." He's used to cold water in a way that I wasn't. And he water in a way that I wasn't. And he would do 3 minutes and I thought he was would do 3 minutes and I thought he was insane. I really did not understand how insane. I really did not understand how he could do it. So I was doing 10 he could do it. So I was doing 10 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds for the seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds for the first like month. And then I figured it first like month. And then I figured it out. And my framework for it is I have out. And my framework for it is I have my little ritual where I put my phone my little ritual where I put my phone down and get the timer going. I take the down and get the timer going. I take the shower cuz you're supposed to take a shower cuz you're supposed to take a little shower before you go cuz it's a little shower before you go cuz it's a public gym. And then from the shower public gym. And then from the shower just I go right into the cold plunge and just I go right into the cold plunge and I dunk immediately. And and that the I dunk immediately. And and that the moments from when I take the sandals off moments from when I take the sandals off and I walk down the little stairs into and I walk down the little stairs into the cold plunge. I they're like a blur the cold plunge. I they're like a blur because I'm like, "No, you have to go. because I'm like, "No, you have to go. You have to go." And then when I dunk You have to go." And then when I dunk underneath while I'm underneath, what I underneath while I'm underneath, what I tell myself is this is the coldest it's
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tell myself is this is the coldest it's going to be. It will not be colder than going to be. It will not be colder than this. And you sort of just absorb that. this. And you sort of just absorb that. And then all the stuff that you just And then all the stuff that you just described happens and by 30 seconds described happens and by 30 seconds you're just kind of hanging out. And now you're just kind of hanging out. And now we're up to five minutes. And I could we're up to five minutes. And I could absolutely do more, but I don't want to, absolutely do more, but I don't want to, you know, obviously do anything you know, obviously do anything dangerous dangerous >> and it gets boring. Like you got [ __ ] to >> and it gets boring. Like you got [ __ ] to do in your life. You [laughter] can't be do in your life. You [laughter] can't be hanging out in this tub all day, right? hanging out in this tub all day, right? >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Mel Robbins is a customer. She wrote a >> Mel Robbins is a customer. She wrote a book, what's it called? Uh 54 321. In book, what's it called? Uh 54 321. In any case, she has this sort of countdown any case, she has this sort of countdown when she faces that resistance. This is when she faces that resistance. This is something that Steven Pressman, he wrote something that Steven Pressman, he wrote a book called um the war of art. You a book called um the war of art. You know, there's the more famous book, The know, there's the more famous book, The Art of War, but Preston was talking Art of War, but Preston was talking about the resistance that you feel about the resistance that you feel sometimes and it causes you to sometimes and it causes you to procrastinate. And he was talking about procrastinate. And he was talking about writing or creative self-expression. Mel writing or creative self-expression. Mel Robbins was talking about getting out of Robbins was talking about getting out of bed. You know, she's like hitting that bed. You know, she's like hitting that snooze alarm. She developed a trick, a snooze alarm. She developed a trick, a sort of a psychological thing to
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sort of a psychological thing to overcome the resistance. You count down overcome the resistance. You count down 5 4 3 2 1 and now you got to launch a 5 4 3 2 1 and now you got to launch a rocket. Like it it's kind of tricking rocket. Like it it's kind of tricking your brain into saying it's go time. And your brain into saying it's go time. And so this helps get into the cold plunge so this helps get into the cold plunge instead of preoccupying your thoughts instead of preoccupying your thoughts with all the excuses that might be with all the excuses that might be running through your brain. Uh I'm I'm running through your brain. Uh I'm I'm not really I'm not shooting a video not really I'm not shooting a video today. Nobody on Instagram is going to today. Nobody on Instagram is going to see this. I could maybe skip, you know, see this. I could maybe skip, you know, you five, four, three, two, one, and the you five, four, three, two, one, and the next thing you know, you've like climbed next thing you know, you've like climbed over the edge of your ice bath and over the edge of your ice bath and you're getting in. It is a wonderful way you're getting in. It is a wonderful way of kind of psyching your brain out so of kind of psyching your brain out so you can do the hard things. When that you can do the hard things. When that happens, your blood pressure is going to happens, your blood pressure is going to spike. If you uh suffer from chronic spike. If you uh suffer from chronic hypertension then do not get into you hypertension then do not get into you know the 33 degree ice bath because that know the 33 degree ice bath because that sympathetic nervous system reaction sympathetic nervous system reaction causes vasoc constriction. This is the
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causes vasoc constriction. This is the reduction in the diameter of your blood reduction in the diameter of your blood vessels feed the extremities with blood. vessels feed the extremities with blood. That blood winds up in the core to That blood winds up in the core to defend your core body temperature. So defend your core body temperature. So your internal organs are going to stay your internal organs are going to stay warmer and as part of that vaso warmer and as part of that vaso constriction your blood pressure goes up constriction your blood pressure goes up over the long hall. Cold exposure is over the long hall. Cold exposure is really good for chronic hypertension. really good for chronic hypertension. But in the immediate short term you But in the immediate short term you shock your system like that and you shock your system like that and you could experience an acute hypertensive could experience an acute hypertensive event. Two clinicians have reported this event. Two clinicians have reported this to me. They felt a little betrayed like to me. They felt a little betrayed like their their subjects, you know, they their their subjects, you know, they didn't report chronic hypertension on didn't report chronic hypertension on their forms and stuff, but then they their forms and stuff, but then they observe this happening. The answer is observe this happening. The answer is you get the guy out of there, you rewarm you get the guy out of there, you rewarm him, nobody had to go to the hospital, him, nobody had to go to the hospital, but it's possible if your blood pressure but it's possible if your blood pressure screams up to like 220 that dangerous screams up to like 220 that dangerous things can be happening in your body. So
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things can be happening in your body. So you got to know your own blood pressure you got to know your own blood pressure state before you embark on something state before you embark on something that is extreme and do it under the that is extreme and do it under the supervision of a physician or another supervision of a physician or another medical practitioner. Now, I don't have medical practitioner. Now, I don't have high blood pressure, and you probably high blood pressure, and you probably don't have it either, which means we don't have it either, which means we don't worry about when we start don't worry about when we start exercising, when we start doing these exercising, when we start doing these hormetic stressors, when we're getting hormetic stressors, when we're getting that uh our body into that cortisol that uh our body into that cortisol driven energetic state to purposely driven energetic state to purposely stress ourselves out so we can initiate stress ourselves out so we can initiate the adaptive response that makes us the adaptive response that makes us stronger. But there are a few people out stronger. But there are a few people out there, they might be my age and they there, they might be my age and they might be saying, you know, I'm on this might be saying, you know, I'm on this med, I'm on that. I probably shouldn't med, I'm on that. I probably shouldn't overdo it. And I don't want them to do overdo it. And I don't want them to do anything crazy. Start out at a anything crazy. Start out at a temperature that is cold enough to make temperature that is cold enough to make you gasp. It does not have to be a you gasp. It does not have to be a temperature that you saw on Instagram. temperature that you saw on Instagram. If it's 55 degrees, start there. If it's
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If it's 55 degrees, start there. If it's tap water, you know, maybe you're not in tap water, you know, maybe you're not in Miami, maybe you're in the Northeast and Miami, maybe you're in the Northeast and the water's starting to get cold, start the water's starting to get cold, start there. Anything that is cold enough to there. Anything that is cold enough to make you feel that gasp reflex is cold make you feel that gasp reflex is cold enough to activate your nervous system enough to activate your nervous system and to start some of these hormetic and to start some of these hormetic stress responses. stress responses. >> And so the level that you'd consider >> And so the level that you'd consider more like extreme, so to speak. more like extreme, so to speak. Obviously, it's not actually extreme, Obviously, it's not actually extreme, but to maybe trigger someone to have a but to maybe trigger someone to have a cardio event like that would be what, cardio event like that would be what, sub 35? sub 35? >> I don't know. you you go to the gym and >> I don't know. you you go to the gym and uh you've probably worked with trainers uh you've probably worked with trainers and um when you started working out, if and um when you started working out, if you gone to your trainer and said, "Hey, you gone to your trainer and said, "Hey, you know, I want to do some shoulder you know, I want to do some shoulder presses. What's the optimal weight? presses. What's the optimal weight? What's the optimal number of reps for What's the optimal number of reps for me?" Your trainer would have said, me?" Your trainer would have said, "Well, I don't, you know, let's see what "Well, I don't, you know, let's see what you how strong are you now? What's your you how strong are you now? What's your how much training have you done? Let's how much training have you done? Let's pick a weight and let's find the weight pick a weight and let's find the weight that you can lift maybe 11 12 times. But that you can lift maybe 11 12 times. But those last two reps are going to be those last two reps are going to be really hard to do. You'll be fatigued.
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really hard to do. You'll be fatigued. We'll get you almost to that point of We'll get you almost to that point of exhaustion and then we'll know what's exhaustion and then we'll know what's the right weight for you. Well, then you the right weight for you. Well, then you got Stacy Sims posting, "Doesn't matter got Stacy Sims posting, "Doesn't matter who you are. If you're a woman, this is who you are. If you're a woman, this is the right temperature. This is the right the right temperature. This is the right amount of time. You should just do this amount of time. You should just do this and there's one protocol for everybody and there's one protocol for everybody all the time." Crack of [ __ ] that is. all the time." Crack of [ __ ] that is. you know, she's a trainer. She knows you know, she's a trainer. She knows better than that. There is no one better than that. There is no one distance that an, you know, everyone is distance that an, you know, everyone is supposed to run. There is no one weight supposed to run. There is no one weight that everyone is supposed to lift. There that everyone is supposed to lift. There is no one temperature that everyone is is no one temperature that everyone is supposed to plunge it in. You got to supposed to plunge it in. You got to find what is right for you because I find what is right for you because I don't care what your gender is or what don't care what your gender is or what your age is or what your metabolic your age is or what your metabolic health is. Your body cannot conform to health is. Your body cannot conform to some generalized prescription based upon some generalized prescription based upon some average population. If you're some average population. If you're starting a new cold plunge practice, go starting a new cold plunge practice, go cold enough to gasp and long enough to cold enough to gasp and long enough to shiver. That's your weight, you know,
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shiver. That's your weight, you know, metaphorically or as an analogy, and the metaphorically or as an analogy, and the number of reps. The temperature is like number of reps. The temperature is like the weight and the time is like the the weight and the time is like the number of reps. When you feel the urge number of reps. When you feel the urge to shiver, you're good. there's there's to shiver, you're good. there's there's no more gains to be had. Come on out. no more gains to be had. Come on out. After a while, you will find that you no After a while, you will find that you no longer have the gasp reflex at the same longer have the gasp reflex at the same temperature because you're acclimated. temperature because you're acclimated. You got to drop the temperature. This is You got to drop the temperature. This is another advantage of having your own another advantage of having your own machine at home because your gym doesn't machine at home because your gym doesn't have three different cold plunges. They have three different cold plunges. They got freaking one. And they hated got freaking one. And they hated installing it in the first place. They installing it in the first place. They were like, "If that Professor Seager were like, "If that Professor Seager would just shut up, you know, and and would just shut up, you know, and and have stop having Hubberman and Rogan have stop having Hubberman and Rogan talk about this, then our members talk about this, then our members wouldn't be nagging us about getting a wouldn't be nagging us about getting a cold plunge. Now I got to invest $80,000 cold plunge. Now I got to invest $80,000 to get this inground thing with the tile to get this inground thing with the tile and the chiller. That's a huge and the chiller. That's a huge maintenance headache." And these gym maintenance headache." And these gym owners are like, "Damn it, they don't owners are like, "Damn it, they don't want to do three. They got one." And want to do three. They got one." And they're going to say, "No, no, no. One they're going to say, "No, no, no. One temperature is right for everybody." You
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temperature is right for everybody." You know, I saw Stacy Sims do a video. know, I saw Stacy Sims do a video. Google AI chat told me, you know, this Google AI chat told me, you know, this is uh what you do. It's all good. Bull is uh what you do. It's all good. Bull crap. Pio, intuitively, you know, it's crap. Pio, intuitively, you know, it's bull crap because when you started your bull crap because when you started your weight, you're like, maybe you're weight, you're like, maybe you're keeping a little journal. You're like, keeping a little journal. You're like, I'm ready to add 10 pounds right here. I'm ready to add 10 pounds right here. I'm going to knock out 10 reps and I'm I'm going to knock out 10 reps and I'm going to add a little weight. When you going to add a little weight. When you become acclimated to the cold, you're become acclimated to the cold, you're going to want to go a little colder. going to want to go a little colder. You're going to want to challenge your You're going to want to challenge your nervous system. You don't have to go nervous system. You don't have to go longer. If you've gotten down below 39 longer. If you've gotten down below 39 degrees and you not feeling the urge to degrees and you not feeling the urge to shiver after four minutes, it's fine. shiver after four minutes, it's fine. You've got brown fat. You're not going You've got brown fat. You're not going for the world record. You're at a zone for the world record. You're at a zone that is good for you. 2 to four minutes that is good for you. 2 to four minutes in freezing cold water every day is in freezing cold water every day is enough for everybody except maybe Andre enough for everybody except maybe Andre Boughy. Except maybe Vim Hoff. Except Boughy. Except maybe Vim Hoff. Except maybe those guys who are, you know, maybe those guys who are, you know, going to break that world record for going to break that world record for being submerged in ice cubes up to their
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being submerged in ice cubes up to their neck. That's just not me. I'm not David neck. That's just not me. I'm not David Gogggins training for a triple marathon. Gogggins training for a triple marathon. So, I'm just trying to stay healthy. So, I'm just trying to stay healthy. >> It's better to frame it for the average >> It's better to frame it for the average person in general in my opinion because person in general in my opinion because the bottom line is most pe most people the bottom line is most pe most people aren't trying to push it when it comes aren't trying to push it when it comes to athletics or phys, you know, their to athletics or phys, you know, their physical bodies. Obviously, there is a physical bodies. Obviously, there is a big population that is, but the average big population that is, but the average person is is trying to just have a person is is trying to just have a healthy life and maintain. What you said healthy life and maintain. What you said about the acclamation is so true. I find about the acclamation is so true. I find myself getting so acclimated when I hit myself getting so acclimated when I hit it every day where the 5 minutes is it every day where the 5 minutes is basically easy. Um, and then when I'm basically easy. Um, and then when I'm out of town, I was just out of town for out of town, I was just out of town for 5 days, no cold plunge, right? No cold 5 days, no cold plunge, right? No cold water at all. And then I came back water at all. And then I came back yesterday, it was harder, but still 5 yesterday, it was harder, but still 5 minutes, no problem. And then uh 5 minutes, no problem. And then uh 5 minutes the next day, no problem. So, minutes the next day, no problem. So, it's it it does come back, but it's just it's it it does come back, but it's just a little bit harder when you take the a little bit harder when you take the time off. Um, I pinged you about the time off. Um, I pinged you about the order with the sauna included. I do want order with the sauna included. I do want to touch on this. So, cold plunge, to touch on this. So, cold plunge, workout, and then sauna was what you workout, and then sauna was what you told me made the most sense. And then, told me made the most sense. And then, uh, if you do no workout, you can do the uh, if you do no workout, you can do the cycle between the cold plunge and the
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cycle between the cold plunge and the sauna, which I actually haven't done. I sauna, which I actually haven't done. I I have not done that since I started I have not done that since I started this whole cold plunge workout sauna. this whole cold plunge workout sauna. When I get out of the cold plunge, I'm When I get out of the cold plunge, I'm kind of raring to go. So, I'm like, "All kind of raring to go. So, I'm like, "All right, well, let let me get out there right, well, let let me get out there and I'll bounce around to warm my body and I'll bounce around to warm my body up, like kind of boxing, footwork, up, like kind of boxing, footwork, bounce around, warm up within three bounce around, warm up within three minutes, and then I just get into like minutes, and then I just get into like the the lifting workout." Or on another the the lifting workout." Or on another day, my teammates and me do a core class day, my teammates and me do a core class right after, which is kind of perfect right after, which is kind of perfect because you're on your back, you know, because you're on your back, you know, not worried about pulling anything. Um, not worried about pulling anything. Um, and we do the core class, then the lift, and we do the core class, then the lift, then the sauna. And and then I actually then the sauna. And and then I actually get stretched after at like a stretching get stretched after at like a stretching clinic over here, which I figure makes clinic over here, which I figure makes sense after the sauna, too. So, what is sense after the sauna, too. So, what is it about the cold plunge workout sauna it about the cold plunge workout sauna order? And then I want to talk about if order? And then I want to talk about if if you want to just do cold plunge and if you want to just do cold plunge and sauna, how to approach that. sauna, how to approach that. >> You you sound like you're into this for >> You you sound like you're into this for an hour and a half. Like I'm going to an hour and a half. Like I'm going to [clears throat] shower. I'm going to [clears throat] shower. I'm going to cold plunge. I'm going to do a little cold plunge. I'm going to do a little rebounding work or like you say some uh rebounding work or like you say some uh some shadow boxing footwork, which is a some shadow boxing footwork, which is a wonderful way to do it. You could do wonderful way to do it. You could do some jumping jacks. You could do some some jumping jacks. You could do some just body weight stuff, some lunges or just body weight stuff, some lunges or some squats. Go easy. After your cold
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some squats. Go easy. After your cold punch, you relim your warms. You're punch, you relim your warms. You're like, "Now I'm going to go get my ass like, "Now I'm going to go get my ass kicked in a core class or I'm going to kicked in a core class or I'm going to do some weight stations and then I'm do some weight stations and then I'm going to get in the sauna." And you say, going to get in the sauna." And you say, "And this feels great." You don't need a "And this feels great." You don't need a lab to tell you [laughter] lab to tell you [laughter] that you're doing so well, but there is that you're doing so well, but there is some science behind this. So, we have some science behind this. So, we have the science of precooling and per the science of precooling and per cooling. Craig Heler has done a great cooling. Craig Heler has done a great job on this. We have science of using job on this. We have science of using sauna for recovery after a hard workout sauna for recovery after a hard workout instead of cold. Now, I'm not instead of cold. Now, I'm not recommending this for those high school recommending this for those high school football players doing their two a days football players doing their two a days in Florida in August because serious in Florida in August because serious exercise, especially when you're wearing exercise, especially when you're wearing all the pads, it can um lead to all the pads, it can um lead to hypothermia. There is a risk in hypothermia. There is a risk in especially in those humid environments especially in those humid environments like Texas. So, I'm not saying use sauna like Texas. So, I'm not saying use sauna if you're already in a hyperothermic if you're already in a hyperothermic state. But the hockey guys, you know, state. But the hockey guys, you know, where they put on a sweater and they're
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where they put on a sweater and they're skating around. Um, Sona is a wonderful skating around. Um, Sona is a wonderful recovery from a strenuous weight recovery from a strenuous weight workout. And there's a lot of good workout. And there's a lot of good clinical data on that where there's no clinical data on that where there's no studies at all. It's cold workout sauna. studies at all. It's cold workout sauna. Nobody has triple stacked their clinical Nobody has triple stacked their clinical trial. So, we have cold before exercise trial. So, we have cold before exercise and we have sauna after exercise. And and we have sauna after exercise. And all the data says this is a wonderful all the data says this is a wonderful thing. Now, yeah, I wrote an article and thing. Now, yeah, I wrote an article and I did a little video with Mike Mutzel I did a little video with Mike Mutzel and I said, "So, here's a hypothesis you and I said, "So, here's a hypothesis you can try for yourself. Make an Oreo can try for yourself. Make an Oreo sandwich out of your workout, so to sandwich out of your workout, so to speak. So, you're going to go cold, speak. So, you're going to go cold, you're going to exercise, and then you're going to exercise, and then you're going to go hot. You're you're going to go hot. You're sandwiching the exercise with your sandwiching the exercise with your thermal contrast therapy. Let me know thermal contrast therapy. Let me know how it goes." Every single person who's how it goes." Every single person who's gotten back to me, who's watched that gotten back to me, who's watched that and said, "I'm giving it a shot," says, and said, "I'm giving it a shot," says, "This is a wonderful routine. I feel "This is a wonderful routine. I feel like I've stressed myself. I've got a like I've stressed myself. I've got a lot of energy. I'm ready for everything lot of energy. I'm ready for everything else that's happening in my day. So,
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else that's happening in my day. So, you'd be doing me a great service if you you'd be doing me a great service if you sent me your labs. And you know, we saw sent me your labs. And you know, we saw uh how your feeling correlates with your uh how your feeling correlates with your blood markers. But for you, stick with blood markers. But for you, stick with it. It sounds like it's working fine. it. It sounds like it's working fine. >> Oh, yeah. Absolut. I mean, I already >> Oh, yeah. Absolut. I mean, I already liked all these things. The newest thing liked all these things. The newest thing is the coal plunge, so I'm absolutely is the coal plunge, so I'm absolutely going to stick with it. and it does feel going to stick with it. and it does feel like a very a good flow when it comes to like a very a good flow when it comes to working out. Let's say someone just working out. Let's say someone just wants to do a session of sauna and cold wants to do a session of sauna and cold plunge. What's the best way to approach plunge. What's the best way to approach that in terms of order and duration? that in terms of order and duration? Let's say it's someone going to a normal Let's say it's someone going to a normal gym. So, it's not one of these 33°ree uh gym. So, it's not one of these 33°ree uh cold plunges like a morasco with ice cold plunges like a morasco with ice floating around just your typical kind floating around just your typical kind of gym setup. of gym setup. >> I don't know that there's a best way. >> I don't know that there's a best way. When you're doing this thermal contrast When you're doing this thermal contrast therapy without the exercise, you get therapy without the exercise, you get baso constriction from the ice bath, you baso constriction from the ice bath, you get baso dilation from the sauna. Now, get baso dilation from the sauna. Now, these blood vessels are controlled by these blood vessels are controlled by what's called smooth muscle tissue. what's called smooth muscle tissue. Everyone's familiar with skeletal
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Everyone's familiar with skeletal muscles and these are the ones you know muscles and these are the ones you know that we see on the cover of the men's that we see on the cover of the men's fitness magazine or whatever but muscles fitness magazine or whatever but muscles there are other muscles in the body and there are other muscles in the body and these smooth muscles they control your these smooth muscles they control your blood flow. Well, how are you going to blood flow. Well, how are you going to exercise them? You do thermal contrast exercise them? You do thermal contrast therapy, vasoc constriction and then therapy, vasoc constriction and then vaso dilation. If what you're going for vaso dilation. If what you're going for is weight loss or recruiting brown fat, is weight loss or recruiting brown fat, then give yourself some time to rewarm then give yourself some time to rewarm after your ice bath before you do the after your ice bath before you do the sauna. Try um to work your body so that sauna. Try um to work your body so that your body is rewarming metabolically your body is rewarming metabolically rather than using that external heat rather than using that external heat source. The problem is it takes more source. The problem is it takes more time. When I get out of the ice bath and time. When I get out of the ice bath and I'll do some lunges or something like I'll do some lunges or something like that and then I'll get into the sauna. that and then I'll get into the sauna. Geez them. If it's 145 150 Fahrenheit Geez them. If it's 145 150 Fahrenheit like infrared sauna, it feels like I like infrared sauna, it feels like I will never break a sweat. But if it's will never break a sweat. But if it's 220 like traditional dry finish sauna,
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220 like traditional dry finish sauna, then I give it half an hour, I start then I give it half an hour, I start sweating, I'm ready to go back and forth sweating, I'm ready to go back and forth again. Some people who are the real again. Some people who are the real purists, they will quote Vimhof and purists, they will quote Vimhof and they'll say, "No, no, no. You must, you they'll say, "No, no, no. You must, you know, make your body warm up on its own know, make your body warm up on its own and you will recruit more brown fat. and you will recruit more brown fat. That stress will stimulate your body to That stress will stimulate your body to to adapt to improve its own to adapt to improve its own thermmorreulatory responses. But you thermmorreulatory responses. But you don't have to do it that way. If what don't have to do it that way. If what you're going for is the linen study you're going for is the linen study cardiovascular benefits and you want to cardiovascular benefits and you want to do thermal contrast therapy back and do thermal contrast therapy back and forth, then go for it. You know, far be forth, then go for it. You know, far be it for me to say, "No, no, no, no. You it for me to say, "No, no, no, no. You really got to work on that brown fat so really got to work on that brown fat so you can thermogenesis and you can thermogenesis and thermmorreulate better." But here's what thermmorreulate better." But here's what doesn't work. So, I'm I'm not going to doesn't work. So, I'm I'm not going to tell you the best way. I'm going to tell tell you the best way. I'm going to tell you the worst way to do it. The worst you the worst way to do it. The worst way is to combine the ice bath with the way is to combine the ice bath with the hot tub to go wet cold and wet heat. It
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hot tub to go wet cold and wet heat. It feels okay, but it's not good. The feels okay, but it's not good. The reason is when your body is submerged in reason is when your body is submerged in wet water, there's no sweat. Your body wet water, there's no sweat. Your body knows not to sweat into the water. The knows not to sweat into the water. The sweat has to evaporate to cool your sweat has to evaporate to cool your body. And you can't evaporate into the body. And you can't evaporate into the hot tub. I guess you could sweat through hot tub. I guess you could sweat through your head because your head isn't under your head because your head isn't under water. If you have your arms out, water. If you have your arms out, they'll begin to sweat to try and shed they'll begin to sweat to try and shed the heat. The way your body defends the heat. The way your body defends itself from the heat of the hot water is itself from the heat of the hot water is vaso constriction. again. So when you go vaso constriction. again. So when you go back and forth between the ice bath and back and forth between the ice bath and the hot tub, you're going vasoc the hot tub, you're going vasoc constriction to vasoc constriction, constriction to vasoc constriction, you're not getting the benefits of you're not getting the benefits of thermal contrast therapy. You get some thermal contrast therapy. You get some benefits, but you're not doing what you benefits, but you're not doing what you what you might think that you're doing what you might think that you're doing uh by going back and forth between the uh by going back and forth between the heat and the cold. Combine wet cold with heat and the cold. Combine wet cold with dry sauna. And if you're not going to do
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dry sauna. And if you're not going to do a workout in between, I think it's fine. a workout in between, I think it's fine. I think you're still getting some I think you're still getting some benefit. You're not training to, you benefit. You're not training to, you know, climb up Mount Kilimanjaro in gym know, climb up Mount Kilimanjaro in gym shorts, unless you're with Wimhof, in shorts, unless you're with Wimhof, in which case do what Vim says to do. So, which case do what Vim says to do. So, okay. So, just so I understand, it okay. So, just so I understand, it sounds like the best thing is to when sounds like the best thing is to when you get out of the cold plunge naturally you get out of the cold plunge naturally bring your body back up to temperature. bring your body back up to temperature. That's, you know, based on on what That's, you know, based on on what you're saying with Vimhof. However, and you're saying with Vimhof. However, and I guess when you get out of the sauna, I guess when you get out of the sauna, if you want to cycle back and forth, if you want to cycle back and forth, let's say you get out of the sauna, do let's say you get out of the sauna, do you have to take a few minutes before you have to take a few minutes before you go back into the cold plunge, is you go back into the cold plunge, is that the ideal uh you know, setup? that the ideal uh you know, setup? >> I don't I don't worry about like >> I don't I don't worry about like naturally cooling my body off or naturally cooling my body off or something like that. Um, and there was something like that. Um, and there was this time Mike Muscle's backyard. I got this time Mike Muscle's backyard. I got he's got a woodf fired sona. He doesn't he's got a woodf fired sona. He doesn't have like some digital electronic have like some digital electronic controller thing. He pops another log in controller thing. He pops another log in the wood stove and that thing will climb the wood stove and that thing will climb up over like 220 225. It gets wicked hot
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up over like 220 225. It gets wicked hot which makes it really convenient to pair which makes it really convenient to pair with the ice bath because you can go with the ice bath because you can go back and forth and you don't have to back and forth and you don't have to wait a long time. But when I got in to wait a long time. But when I got in to the ice bath after coming out of his the ice bath after coming out of his woodfired sauna, the world started woodfired sauna, the world started spinning. I and it wasn't vertigo. It spinning. I and it wasn't vertigo. It was more like a transcendent, you know, was more like a transcendent, you know, psychedelic experience. I don't have a psychedelic experience. I don't have a lot of experience with psychedelics, but lot of experience with psychedelics, but it wasn't the kind of spinning that was it wasn't the kind of spinning that was making me feel dizzy. I'm not saying making me feel dizzy. I'm not saying that I could have done calisthenics. I that I could have done calisthenics. I felt a sense of calm and curiosity. I'm felt a sense of calm and curiosity. I'm like, look at that sky go. Maybe it was like, look at that sky go. Maybe it was because I was with Mike and he's because I was with Mike and he's experienced and I knew I wasn't in any experienced and I knew I wasn't in any danger or something. There was something danger or something. There was something going on in that vasoc constriction going on in that vasoc constriction basin vasoddilation cycle moved my brain basin vasoddilation cycle moved my brain into a transcendent state in which I into a transcendent state in which I could no longer count on my sensory could no longer count on my sensory perceptions. And I I mentioned it to
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perceptions. And I I mentioned it to Mike. He goes, "Oh yeah, that happens." Mike. He goes, "Oh yeah, that happens." Well, you could have [laughter] let me Well, you could have [laughter] let me know before know before >> because of how extreme the hot was and >> because of how extreme the hot was and then right into the extreme cold. then right into the extreme cold. >> That's right. without the break. It It >> That's right. without the break. It It created something that I still haven't created something that I still haven't looked up in the library that I still looked up in the library that I still don't quite understand, which was a don't quite understand, which was a transcendent sort of parasychedelic or transcendent sort of parasychedelic or pseudoscsychedelic uh experience. When I pseudoscsychedelic uh experience. When I went straight into the ice bath, I went straight into the ice bath, I didn't mind, you know, I stayed in there didn't mind, you know, I stayed in there four or five minutes. Everything calmed four or five minutes. Everything calmed down a little bit. I got back out. I down a little bit. I got back out. I said, "Hey, let's do that again." You said, "Hey, let's do that again." You know, [laughter] I stayed curious about know, [laughter] I stayed curious about it. Now, I also had an Iawaska trip and it. Now, I also had an Iawaska trip and they're not exactly comparable. This the they're not exactly comparable. This the kinds of hallucinations that I had with kinds of hallucinations that I had with Iawaska were not the same type that I Iawaska were not the same type that I had when I was doing this radical had when I was doing this radical thermal contrast therapy, but there was thermal contrast therapy, but there was a lot less vomiting with the radical a lot less vomiting with the radical thermal contrast therapy than there was thermal contrast therapy than there was with the Iawasa. And so if I was going
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with the Iawasa. And so if I was going to pick one or the other again and I had to pick one or the other again and I had somebody like Mike or somebody I knew somebody like Mike or somebody I knew who was strong enough to get me out of who was strong enough to get me out of the ice bath, you know, if something the ice bath, you know, if something really surprising happens, um I would really surprising happens, um I would choose the extreme thermal contrast choose the extreme thermal contrast therapy. You can't do that at your gym therapy. You can't do that at your gym for good reasons. They will never for good reasons. They will never facilitate that experience at your uh facilitate that experience at your uh gym. But if you're one of these like I gym. But if you're one of these like I don't know really curious people who don't know really curious people who wants to explore the extreme there's wants to explore the extreme there's probably something waiting for you there probably something waiting for you there in this extreme thermal contrast therapy in this extreme thermal contrast therapy where you don't have any break between where you don't have any break between the sauna and the ice bath. the sauna and the ice bath. >> Very interesting. I also love how you're >> Very interesting. I also love how you're like I don't have a lot of experience like I don't have a lot of experience with psychedelics and you're like yeah with psychedelics and you're like yeah but I did Iawasa [laughter] that I get a but I did Iawasa [laughter] that I get a kick out of that. Um, kick out of that. Um, >> oh, come on. I did like three nights, >> oh, come on. I did like three nights, you know. I was down there for over a you know. I was down there for over a week and it was because friends invited week and it was because friends invited me, friends whom I really respect, and me, friends whom I really respect, and they said they got a lot out of it. And they said they got a lot out of it. And I'm like, I have this rule. If people I I'm like, I have this rule. If people I really respect tell me to try something, really respect tell me to try something, I have to try it. I don't have to do it. I have to try it. I don't have to do it. Like, I I just have to I don't have to
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Like, I I just have to I don't have to adopt it into my life, but I have to adopt it into my life, but I have to sample it and see what it's like. So, sample it and see what it's like. So, three nights later, I thought my friends three nights later, I thought my friends were going to like I don't know, be were going to like I don't know, be disappointed or try and shame me a disappointed or try and shame me a little bit. I said, "I think I'm gonna little bit. I said, "I think I'm gonna take this night off." And they go, "Oh, take this night off." And they go, "Oh, you know, what's not working for you?" I you know, what's not working for you?" I go, "It's a lot of vomiting, you know, go, "It's a lot of vomiting, you know, like [laughter] it's more vomiting than like [laughter] it's more vomiting than I really want in my life." They said, I really want in my life." They said, "Okay, you know, see how it goes." It "Okay, you know, see how it goes." It was fine. Like, these are wonderful was fine. Like, these are wonderful people. What I did instead, because I people. What I did instead, because I could get enough Wi-Fi access to get on could get enough Wi-Fi access to get on my computer, even though we were out, my computer, even though we were out, you know, in the jungle off-rid, I you know, in the jungle off-rid, I started writing about Iawaska. I read started writing about Iawaska. I read articles about it. It turns out as articles about it. It turns out as little as one session can modify your little as one session can modify your epiggenome. So these are the the epiggenome. So these are the the chemical markers that coat your DNA and chemical markers that coat your DNA and turn your genes on or off. As little as turn your genes on or off. As little as one session of Iawasa modifies the one session of Iawasa modifies the expression of your genome. It's no expression of your genome. It's no wonder people say, "I feel transformed.
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wonder people say, "I feel transformed. I feel like I've had, you know, a I feel like I've had, you know, a life-changing experience." because their life-changing experience." because their genome is no longer the DNA is intact, genome is no longer the DNA is intact, but the way that it's expressed has but the way that it's expressed has changed and they they sense something changed and they they sense something has changed, but they don't have words has changed, but they don't have words for that. So, I did this article. I put for that. So, I did this article. I put it up on my Substack, seeertp.substack. it up on my Substack, seeertp.substack. And um I said, "Well, this is great." I And um I said, "Well, this is great." I realized that for me, Pio, the real realized that for me, Pio, the real transcendent experience is when I start transcendent experience is when I start writing about stuff and then I'm like in writing about stuff and then I'm like in my imagination. I'm in my flow state. My my imagination. I'm in my flow state. My body doesn't know the difference between body doesn't know the difference between something I wrote and something I something I wrote and something I actually experienced, you know, and not actually experienced, you know, and not everybody's brain works this way. But everybody's brain works this way. But I'm a scholar and I write for a living. I'm a scholar and I write for a living. And so this is what I do when I want And so this is what I do when I want that that transcendent experience. that that transcendent experience. That's what I mean. I don't have a lot That's what I mean. I don't have a lot of experience with psychedelics. I sit of experience with psychedelics. I sit down on Saturday and I start writing
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down on Saturday and I start writing like crazy. Next thing you know, I've like crazy. Next thing you know, I've got a story and my body responds to the got a story and my body responds to the story that it's read. The thoughts stay story that it's read. The thoughts stay in my brain because I've written them in in my brain because I've written them in there and it changes who I am. there and it changes who I am. >> Fascinating. Um, switching gears from >> Fascinating. Um, switching gears from psychedelics, but it's still something psychedelics, but it's still something that you're putting in your body. Do you that you're putting in your body. Do you have opinions on nutrition? Like have opinions on nutrition? Like obviously there's a lot of different obviously there's a lot of different people out there at this point that have people out there at this point that have strong opinions. People like uh strong opinions. People like uh Saladino, right? And and and a lot of Saladino, right? And and and a lot of other people. Do you have opinions about other people. Do you have opinions about nutrition? And is that something that nutrition? And is that something that you focus on? you focus on? >> Saladino is one of the ones who makes >> Saladino is one of the ones who makes the most sense. He hasn't always made the most sense. He hasn't always made the most sense, but he's really the most sense, but he's really interesting because he went through his interesting because he went through his vegan phase and then he went through his vegan phase and then he went through his carnivore phase and now he calls it carnivore phase and now he calls it animalbased, which I guess is good animalbased, which I guess is good marketing, but it sounds like a bit of a marketing, but it sounds like a bit of a misnomer. And he's like, "Yeah, I'm misnomer. And he's like, "Yeah, I'm eating the watermelon and the maple eating the watermelon and the maple syrup or something." He hasn't always syrup or something." He hasn't always made sense, but he's in a good spot now. made sense, but he's in a good spot now. I listened to his uh podcast with Nick I listened to his uh podcast with Nick Norwitz and I'm like, Saladino is on
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Norwitz and I'm like, Saladino is on point. His um capacity to change his point. His um capacity to change his mind and continue learning is almost mind and continue learning is almost unmatched in social media because once unmatched in social media because once you make a brand, you know, Sean Baker, you make a brand, you know, Sean Baker, I've never met him, but he's a wonderful I've never met him, but he's a wonderful guy. I've never talked to him, but he guy. I've never talked to him, but he comes across as genuine and sincere. comes across as genuine and sincere. He's got a brand. He's the carnivore MD. He's got a brand. He's the carnivore MD. He's not switching for anybody. Once you He's not switching for anybody. Once you make a brand in social media that's make a brand in social media that's working, some part of your ego thinks working, some part of your ego thinks you are, you know, your Twitter handle, you are, you know, your Twitter handle, it becomes very difficult for you to it becomes very difficult for you to maintain flexibility, to continue to maintain flexibility, to continue to experiment. Saladino's got that. I don't experiment. Saladino's got that. I don't think meat sticks are necessarily the think meat sticks are necessarily the answer. Uh, but watching the evolution answer. Uh, but watching the evolution of the way he talks about nutrition, I'm of the way he talks about nutrition, I'm a little bit more extreme. I don't think a little bit more extreme. I don't think seed oils have a role in your diet. I seed oils have a role in your diet. I don't care what Norwitz cites say as
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don't care what Norwitz cites say as well maybe they're not so bad. Why do I well maybe they're not so bad. Why do I want to eat them? I think I heard want to eat them? I think I heard Saladino. I'm going to attribute to him Saladino. I'm going to attribute to him whether I'm right or not. There's no whether I'm right or not. There's no such thing in the American diet as a such thing in the American diet as a linoleic acid deficiency. You know, even linoleic acid deficiency. You know, even though we know we need some omega-6 though we know we need some omega-6 fatty, we're getting them accidentally. fatty, we're getting them accidentally. We don't have to focus on that. Get the We don't have to focus on that. Get the seed oils out of your diet and you will seed oils out of your diet and you will feel better. Unfortunately, it takes feel better. Unfortunately, it takes like three years. When you get into the like three years. When you get into the cold plunge, you know something is cold plunge, you know something is happening right away. When you start happening right away. When you start taking the seed oils out of your diet, taking the seed oils out of your diet, you don't realize that these oils are you don't realize that these oils are incorporated into the phospholipids that incorporated into the phospholipids that make your cell membrane. So, every cell make your cell membrane. So, every cell has these membranes. They're made out of has these membranes. They're made out of the fats that you eat. The organels the fats that you eat. The organels inside your cells like the mitochondria, inside your cells like the mitochondria, they have their own phospholipid they have their own phospholipid membranes. And the rate of turnover is membranes. And the rate of turnover is pretty slow. So if you were to go seed pretty slow. So if you were to go seed oilf free tomorrow, it would take years
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oilf free tomorrow, it would take years for your metabolism and the membrane for your metabolism and the membrane transport processes that facilitate and transport processes that facilitate and support it to replace those omega6 fatty support it to replace those omega6 fatty acids in your phospholipids. That's a acids in your phospholipids. That's a long slow burn. Not everybody has long slow burn. Not everybody has patience for it, but it's still a good patience for it, but it's still a good idea. You can track your progress in idea. You can track your progress in markers like blood markers. Uh C markers like blood markers. Uh C reactive proteins, one that you can keep reactive proteins, one that you can keep track of. It'll be more responsive. track of. It'll be more responsive. Don't worry about your cholesterol. This Don't worry about your cholesterol. This is one that Norwitz is right on. If you is one that Norwitz is right on. If you go keto, your cholesterol will go up. go keto, your cholesterol will go up. That's how his Oreo cookies brought his That's how his Oreo cookies brought his cholesterol down. And it's the most cholesterol down. And it's the most ridiculous headline and it sort of made ridiculous headline and it sort of made him famous, but it's because when you go him famous, but it's because when you go keto, cholesterol goes up. This is a keto, cholesterol goes up. This is a good thing because if you are managing good thing because if you are managing your blood glucose through a ketogenic your blood glucose through a ketogenic diet, that cholesterol will never become diet, that cholesterol will never become glycated. Glycation is when you glycated. Glycation is when you experience a blood glucose spike or what
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experience a blood glucose spike or what Paul Reynolds, he's a BYU professor, Paul Reynolds, he's a BYU professor, what he calls a an excursion, which is a what he calls a an excursion, which is a funny word for you ate too many damn funny word for you ate too many damn Oreo cookies. And then the glucose Oreo cookies. And then the glucose attaches to a cholesterol molecule. attaches to a cholesterol molecule. That's when it becomes dangerous. That's That's when it becomes dangerous. That's when it becomes associated with when it becomes associated with arterioclerosis. arterioclerosis. If your cholesterol is high, but your If your cholesterol is high, but your insulin levels are low and your blood insulin levels are low and your blood glucose is low, that's healthy. glucose is low, that's healthy. Cholesterol is the building block, the Cholesterol is the building block, the metabolic substrate from which vitamin D metabolic substrate from which vitamin D and cortisol and all the sex steroids and cortisol and all the sex steroids are made. Your brain is built from are made. Your brain is built from cholesterol. So, when it comes to diet, cholesterol. So, when it comes to diet, minimize the seed oils. And it's okay to minimize the seed oils. And it's okay to have these blood glucose excursions. have these blood glucose excursions. Like it's okay to I don't know, eat the Like it's okay to I don't know, eat the freaking uh gourmet croissant or freaking uh gourmet croissant or something. If it's great food, I'm not something. If it's great food, I'm not turning it down, but you got to give turning it down, but you got to give your mitochondria some recovery time. your mitochondria some recovery time. You got to get into keto a couple of
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You got to get into keto a couple of days a week. The ice bath is great for days a week. The ice bath is great for this. You can stress your mitochondria this. You can stress your mitochondria with the carbs and you can allow your with the carbs and you can allow your [clears throat] mitochondria to recover. [clears throat] mitochondria to recover. Seed oils on the other hand are not a Seed oils on the other hand are not a hormetic stressor. Uh your body will use hormetic stressor. Uh your body will use them to create these defective them to create these defective phospholipid membranes. And one of the phospholipid membranes. And one of the ways that that will show up is in your ways that that will show up is in your triglyceride to HDL ratio. When your triglyceride to HDL ratio. When your triglyceride to HDL ratio is too high, triglyceride to HDL ratio is too high, it indicates you are insulin resistant. it indicates you are insulin resistant. You need some keto, you need some cold You need some keto, you need some cold plunge, you need to get good sleep, plunge, you need to get good sleep, which is when testosterone is made for which is when testosterone is made for goodness sakes. You need to get that goodness sakes. You need to get that blue light out of your nighttime. You blue light out of your nighttime. You need dark at night. You fix these things need dark at night. You fix these things and you will see your triglyceride to and you will see your triglyceride to HDL ratio come down. So, I think the HDL ratio come down. So, I think the lowest I ever got was like 0.5. lowest I ever got was like 0.5. Super insulin sensitive. Anything under Super insulin sensitive. Anything under one, you're doing great. When it gets up one, you're doing great. When it gets up to three, you're a heart attack waiting
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to three, you're a heart attack waiting to happen. And so that's one the one to happen. And so that's one the one thing on the blood lipid panel that uh thing on the blood lipid panel that uh comes back that I ever get concerned comes back that I ever get concerned about is that triglyceride to HDL ratio. about is that triglyceride to HDL ratio. >> Wow. Well, that was very information >> Wow. Well, that was very information dense. Awesome insight. On the seed oil dense. Awesome insight. On the seed oil front, I've been off seed oils in my front, I've been off seed oils in my house for a long long time like probably house for a long long time like probably I don't like I don't know eight years or I don't like I don't know eight years or something like that and got my mom off something like that and got my mom off them and everything like that. Yeah, them and everything like that. Yeah, just uh animal fat is my primary uh just uh animal fat is my primary uh cooking fat. And then obviously you can cooking fat. And then obviously you can use stuff like coconut oil, but but I use stuff like coconut oil, but but I like uh animal fat the best. When you go like uh animal fat the best. When you go to restaurants in the United States to restaurants in the United States though, you know, like I am consuming though, you know, like I am consuming seed oils, I'm sure at times just you seed oils, I'm sure at times just you know by way of attending restaurants. I know by way of attending restaurants. I don't eat out a lot, but like you know don't eat out a lot, but like you know social gatherings, stuff like that. I go social gatherings, stuff like that. I go to restaurants and I'm sure it happens to restaurants and I'm sure it happens but you know at least controlling the but you know at least controlling the seed oils in your house and just the seed oils in your house and just the origin of seed oils was enough for me to origin of seed oils was enough for me to not want to go anywhere near them. It it not want to go anywhere near them. It it didn't make people supposed to eat didn't make people supposed to eat cotton? Like, is that how we're supposed cotton? Like, is that how we're supposed to live? Because you couldn't, you
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to live? Because you couldn't, you didn't know what to do with your cotton didn't know what to do with your cotton seeds. And so, you said, "Here's what seeds. And so, you said, "Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to hexane I'm going to do. I'm going to hexane extract them. I'm going to detoxify extract them. I'm going to detoxify them. I'm going to remove all the odors, them. I'm going to remove all the odors, and then I'm going to, you know, link and then I'm going to, you know, link them, partially hydrogenate them, and them, partially hydrogenate them, and I'm going to call it Crisco." I'm going to call it Crisco." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then, how am I going to get people >> And then, how am I going to get people to buy this crap? I'll pretend it's to buy this crap? I'll pretend it's healthy. Like, what a conspiracy, right? healthy. Like, what a conspiracy, right? >> Oh, yeah. It's It's wild. So, that's >> Oh, yeah. It's It's wild. So, that's just, you know, a no-brainer for me. And just, you know, a no-brainer for me. And when I see people defending seed oils, I when I see people defending seed oils, I think it's like one of the weirdest think it's like one of the weirdest things because I'm like, why is this the things because I'm like, why is this the battle that you're fighting? Like, battle that you're fighting? Like, >> and and the argument is always sound a >> and and the argument is always sound a little bit like this. Um, seed oils little bit like this. Um, seed oils actually aren't that bad for you. The actually aren't that bad for you. The hell kind of an argument is [laughter] hell kind of an argument is [laughter] that? And this is one where Sadino is that? And this is one where Sadino is really good and he has a way of really good and he has a way of dramatizing. He's like, I'm going to dramatizing. He's like, I'm going to take my shirt off and go into this take my shirt off and go into this Chick-fil-A. Hey, you know, I have an Chick-fil-A. Hey, you know, I have an allergy. What kind of oils do [laughter] allergy. What kind of oils do [laughter] you use when you go out to eat? He's you use when you go out to eat? He's making a really good point. Those aren't
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making a really good point. Those aren't just seed oils. Those are seed oils that just seed oils. Those are seed oils that have been sitting in the fryer for a have been sitting in the fryer for a week. They're getting heated up. They're week. They're getting heated up. They're oxidized seed oils. I was talking about oxidized seed oils. I was talking about glycation, which I learned from Paul glycation, which I learned from Paul Reynolds, and it's true. But what's even Reynolds, and it's true. But what's even worse is glycating oxidized [laughter] worse is glycating oxidized [laughter] cholesterol. When you take in these cholesterol. When you take in these oxidized seed oils, it's going to spike oxidized seed oils, it's going to spike your inflammation. It's going to do your inflammation. It's going to do worse things to your body inside your worse things to your body inside your bloodstream. And so, I know what you're bloodstream. And so, I know what you're saying. You sit down and you're like, saying. You sit down and you're like, you know, I want to have a good time you know, I want to have a good time with my friends. That mozzarella stick with my friends. That mozzarella stick looks delicious. Every once in a while, looks delicious. Every once in a while, you're going to eat the freaking wings you're going to eat the freaking wings or something. It's a wing. It's or something. It's a wing. It's carnivore. Right. Here I go. Probably carnivore. Right. Here I go. Probably fine. But man, I I'm drawing a harder fine. But man, I I'm drawing a harder line in my life. And I think Saladino's line in my life. And I think Saladino's videos are good reminders. Sometimes videos are good reminders. Sometimes they get repetitive and sometimes I need they get repetitive and sometimes I need the repetition. There are now the repetition. There are now restaurants. There's one, my favorite in restaurants. There's one, my favorite in Scottsdale is the ends. It's run by a
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Scottsdale is the ends. It's run by a friend of mine, Tommy Plato. I had him friend of mine, Tommy Plato. I had him on my podcast. He's seed oil free. I was on my podcast. He's seed oil free. I was there last night. I went through two there last night. I went through two orders of tallow fries because um bring orders of tallow fries because um bring [laughter] me that beef tallow, Tommy. [laughter] me that beef tallow, Tommy. And I'm not feeling guilty about it. It And I'm not feeling guilty about it. It was delicious. was delicious. >> Yeah. And that and you know, I don't kid >> Yeah. And that and you know, I don't kid myself and think like because I'm myself and think like because I'm getting chicken wings at a place or getting chicken wings at a place or something like that uh that it's something like that uh that it's healthy. Obviously, if you're ordering healthy. Obviously, if you're ordering like mozzarella sticks in the United like mozzarella sticks in the United States, if that's the name of the item States, if that's the name of the item on the menu, you're kind of, you know, on the menu, you're kind of, you know, not in in the right place, right? not in in the right place, right? >> You're probably three beers in. Like >> You're probably three beers in. Like your [laughter] problem started long your [laughter] problem started long before the mozzarella sticks showed up. before the mozzarella sticks showed up. >> Exact. Exactly. Uh Saladino is really >> Exact. Exactly. Uh Saladino is really big on only eating fruits and not eating big on only eating fruits and not eating any vegetables of any sort. Uh he has any vegetables of any sort. Uh he has like his reasons for this. Are you like his reasons for this. Are you opinionated on that on that one uh area? opinionated on that on that one uh area? >> Yeah. If you really like burnt brussel >> Yeah. If you really like burnt brussel sprouts like I do. If you really like I sprouts like I do. If you really like I don't know uh you know broccoli or
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don't know uh you know broccoli or asparagus with your steak, eat it. asparagus with your steak, eat it. Vegetables should be thought of like Vegetables should be thought of like medicine. that is don't overdose on the medicine. that is don't overdose on the vegetables. They have medicinal vegetables. They have medicinal qualities. When Saladino says that plant qualities. When Saladino says that plant doesn't want to be eaten, you know, it's doesn't want to be eaten, you know, it's defending its seeds and its stems and defending its seeds and its stems and its leaves against being eaten. I think its leaves against being eaten. I think he's right. The the vegetables are he's right. The the vegetables are medicine. One of the things that medicine. One of the things that happened to me when I went down to Peru happened to me when I went down to Peru is it wasn't just the owasa. There was is it wasn't just the owasa. There was something that they called the dieta. something that they called the dieta. They take the bark not of the iawaska They take the bark not of the iawaska vine but of other trees and it was vine but of other trees and it was something like eight different trees and something like eight different trees and they pound the bark and they make what they pound the bark and they make what is essentially a tea out of the bark of is essentially a tea out of the bark of these trees and you drink the tea. It these trees and you drink the tea. It doesn't taste good but I was like can I doesn't taste good but I was like can I have seconds? There was something about have seconds? There was something about that tree bark that felt to me like that tree bark that felt to me like medicine. So I'm like looking around a medicine. So I'm like looking around a little bit. What are the things that little bit. What are the things that have come out of tree bark besides have come out of tree bark besides aspirin? Well, [clears throat]
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aspirin? Well, [clears throat] mistletoe, which treats cancer, um, mistletoe, which treats cancer, um, white willow bark, which I guess is white willow bark, which I guess is better than aspirin, bourberine, like we better than aspirin, bourberine, like we extract medicines from plants and they extract medicines from plants and they can be toxic, but they can also be can be toxic, but they can also be therapeutic. So, if you're eating therapeutic. So, if you're eating broccoli or asparagus or you're having broccoli or asparagus or you're having the vegetable because it tastes good, the vegetable because it tastes good, I'm like, don't overdose on the I'm like, don't overdose on the vegetables. a little bit of that vegetables. a little bit of that hormetic stress probably is doing good. hormetic stress probably is doing good. But my grandmother, you know, she just But my grandmother, you know, she just ate the steak. She Nobody's She was like ate the steak. She Nobody's She was like George Bush. Ain't nobody going to make George Bush. Ain't nobody going to make me eat the broccoli. She lived to 99. I me eat the broccoli. She lived to 99. I don't see vegans with that kind of don't see vegans with that kind of record. I think it's possible to be record. I think it's possible to be vegan and get a complete complement of vegan and get a complete complement of the micronutrients and things that you the micronutrients and things that you need. And you got to have a goddamn PhD need. And you got to have a goddamn PhD in nutrition to do it really right. And in nutrition to do it really right. And you see guys like Salin, well, where are
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you see guys like Salin, well, where are you getting your choline from? And I'm you getting your choline from? And I'm like, I'm an engineer. What the hell is like, I'm an engineer. What the hell is choline? I don't have that level of choline? I don't have that level of knowledge. Neither am I going to knowledge. Neither am I going to demonize um something my local bakery demonize um something my local bakery makes. I I call it my candy. It's a flax makes. I I call it my candy. It's a flax seed bread. I'm like, I'm going in. I'm seed bread. I'm like, I'm going in. I'm eating the flax seeds, Paul. [laughter] eating the flax seeds, Paul. [laughter] >> Yeah, >> Yeah, I I love bread products. So, I I totally I I love bread products. So, I I totally agree with you on that. And uh you know agree with you on that. And uh you know my family's from Italy and so obviously my family's from Italy and so obviously there's a big bread tradition there. The there's a big bread tradition there. The ingredients that go into most breads in ingredients that go into most breads in Italy is are just you know flour, water, Italy is are just you know flour, water, salt, yeast. And that's not always the salt, yeast. And that's not always the case with United States stuff. So I case with United States stuff. So I think a lot think a lot >> I don't want that. That's not medicine. >> I don't want that. That's not medicine. That's poison. The the folic acid that That's poison. The the folic acid that they're putting in bread. I don't want they're putting in bread. I don't want that. I want to know where my wheat came that. I want to know where my wheat came from. I want to know who made it. from. I want to know who made it. Mutzel's really good with his sourdough Mutzel's really good with his sourdough recipes. And he has a book that he recipes. And he has a book that he recommends by um if I'm remembering recommends by um if I'm remembering correctly, Bill Schneider. There's a correctly, Bill Schneider. There's a wonderful book. I opened it up. I forget wonderful book. I opened it up. I forget what chapter and he was talking about he
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what chapter and he was talking about he was doing some television special and it was doing some television special and it was, you know, like a survivalist thing was, you know, like a survivalist thing and he had to wade into the cold water and he had to wade into the cold water and he's got to like kill the beaver and he's got to like kill the beaver with his bare hands [laughter] or with his bare hands [laughter] or something like that. This is the guy something like that. This is the guy who's publishing a sourdough recipe and who's publishing a sourdough recipe and he made really good points. When we he made really good points. When we ferment those seeds, when we ferment ferment those seeds, when we ferment those plants, yeast in the fermentation those plants, yeast in the fermentation process or whatever the microorganism is process or whatever the microorganism is is digesting it for us. It is is digesting it for us. It is detoxifying it for us. So, in Bill detoxifying it for us. So, in Bill Schneider's book, corn is no good for Schneider's book, corn is no good for you unless the corn is prepared in a way you unless the corn is prepared in a way detoxifies it. When you get these detoxifies it. When you get these ultrarocessed tortillas, you know, in ultrarocessed tortillas, you know, in the grocery store, don't think that just the grocery store, don't think that just because it's corn and that's a seed that because it's corn and that's a seed that there's any health content. Schneider is there's any health content. Schneider is really good at describing the really good at describing the fermentation processes that our ancient fermentation processes that our ancient ancestors discovered, detoxified these
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ancestors discovered, detoxified these plants for us so that they could benefit plants for us so that they could benefit from nutrient value without getting the from nutrient value without getting the poison value. So, there's a a couple of poison value. So, there's a a couple of more recommendations if you want to go more recommendations if you want to go down the nutritional rabbit hole farther down the nutritional rabbit hole farther than I can lead you. than I can lead you. >> Sure. I mean, if there's any names that >> Sure. I mean, if there's any names that you want to throw out there, people can you want to throw out there, people can look them up. Uh, yeah, you can just look them up. Uh, yeah, you can just kind of rattle them off because, you kind of rattle them off because, you know, it's recorded, so people can just, know, it's recorded, so people can just, uh, refer back to it. uh, refer back to it. >> Well, I read Michael Pollen's Omnivore >> Well, I read Michael Pollen's Omnivore Dilemma, and I think he's wrong. I think Dilemma, and I think he's wrong. I think Bill Schneider's book is much better. Bill Schneider's book is much better. It's on my shelf, and I can't remember It's on my shelf, and I can't remember what it is. you follow Mike Mutzel and what it is. you follow Mike Mutzel and he will eventually get to a sourdough he will eventually get to a sourdough post where he points you to it. Um, and post where he points you to it. Um, and we might put it in the show notes. I we might put it in the show notes. I also think Saladino makes a great The also think Saladino makes a great The unfortunate thing about social media is unfortunate thing about social media is it lends itself to oversimplification it lends itself to oversimplification and exaggeration. I think that you and exaggeration. I think that you listen to enough Saladino and you're listen to enough Saladino and you're going to know when he's being a bit going to know when he's being a bit cheeky. He just did a bit on chia seeds. cheeky. He just did a bit on chia seeds. some of those chia seed, you know,
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some of those chia seed, you know, dessert. I think they're wonderful and dessert. I think they're wonderful and delicious. And he's got a point. They go delicious. And he's got a point. They go straight through you and you poop them straight through you and you poop them right out. It still tasted pretty good right out. It still tasted pretty good when it was going in. There are things when it was going in. There are things that you can do in your diet knowing that you can do in your diet knowing that your body can when your that your body can when your mitochondria in good shape, your body mitochondria in good shape, your body can handle some hormetic stress. Keep in can handle some hormetic stress. Keep in mind, you need the feasting and the mind, you need the feasting and the fasting. You need the light and the fasting. You need the light and the dark. You need the sleep and the dark. You need the sleep and the activity. And so you can pendulate activity. And so you can pendulate between different stressors. You know, between different stressors. You know, the army says you got to drink eight the army says you got to drink eight gallons of water a day or some nonsense gallons of water a day or some nonsense like No, you don't. It is okay to go a like No, you don't. It is okay to go a whole day and not drink any water one whole day and not drink any water one time and see how you feel. It is okay. time and see how you feel. It is okay. I'm using this word pendulation that I'm using this word pendulation that Peter Lavine invented to help people Peter Lavine invented to help people heal from trauma. It is okay to heal from trauma. It is okay to introduce this variability in your life
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introduce this variability in your life and track how your body responds. At and track how your body responds. At least that's my view. least that's my view. >> Great insight. Uh we've been going for >> Great insight. Uh we've been going for an hour. Last question. Uh and this is an hour. Last question. Uh and this is you know kind of off the health stuff. you know kind of off the health stuff. Your career, you know, you're a a Your career, you know, you're a a university professor now you have this university professor now you have this business Morasco uh which you know seems business Morasco uh which you know seems to be doing very well. What is your to be doing very well. What is your investing history? Have you invested investing history? Have you invested over the course of your career at all? over the course of your career at all? Um, I've lost more money in Morasco than Um, I've lost more money in Morasco than I've lost in stock options. And I've I've lost in stock options. And I've lost a lot of money in stock options. lost a lot of money in stock options. I'm a ter. You can listen to my advice I'm a ter. You can listen to my advice on testosterone. Do not listen to my on testosterone. Do not listen to my advice on investing or trading unless advice on investing or trading unless you want to lose hundreds of thousands you want to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars. I'm a terrible businessman. of dollars. I'm a terrible businessman. I'm a pretty good university professor. I'm a pretty good university professor. I'm an excellent researcher. So, we can I'm an excellent researcher. So, we can talk about all those things. And the talk about all those things. And the cautionary tale is what not to do. cautionary tale is what not to do. However, I have a couple of people in my However, I have a couple of people in my life whom I really admire and they're life whom I really admire and they're way better at it than I am. If you get way better at it than I am. If you get really good, you can make a lot of
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really good, you can make a lot of money. One of the things that I've money. One of the things that I've learned is to sell volatility rather learned is to sell volatility rather than buy it. When you're selling than buy it. When you're selling volatility, 90% of the time you're volatility, 90% of the time you're winning and 10% of the time you feel winning and 10% of the time you feel like such a [ __ ] loser. You feel like like such a [ __ ] loser. You feel like you've missed out. You know, the FOMO you've missed out. You know, the FOMO rises up and you're like, if only I, you rises up and you're like, if only I, you know, could have done. And that feeling know, could have done. And that feeling is going to bankrupt you. Uh so these is going to bankrupt you. Uh so these are very this part of me coming back are very this part of me coming back from Peru part of me thinking about the from Peru part of me thinking about the metaphor of the trees growing inside me metaphor of the trees growing inside me has changed the way I trade and I become has changed the way I trade and I become more successful. So I'm going to finish more successful. So I'm going to finish the thought on that metaphor. When the thought on that metaphor. When someone buys a stock option, they're someone buys a stock option, they're they're like buying a weed. They want they're like buying a weed. They want that thing to grow so freaking fast and that thing to grow so freaking fast and then they want to harvest it right away. then they want to harvest it right away. And we're greedy for the weed. Trees And we're greedy for the weed. Trees don't work like that. Trees need to be don't work like that. Trees need to be cared for. They need a little sunshine.
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cared for. They need a little sunshine. They need a little rain. And they grow a They need a little rain. And they grow a little bit every day. When you sell little bit every day. When you sell volatility, you're a tree. And you volatility, you're a tree. And you you're thinking, I'm growing a little you're thinking, I'm growing a little bit every day. It takes extraordinary bit every day. It takes extraordinary patience. And every once in a while, patience. And every once in a while, your tree needs to be trimmed. You cut your tree needs to be trimmed. You cut off a few limbs. You uh reduce your, you off a few limbs. You uh reduce your, you know, your short position in options a know, your short position in options a little bit. Maybe you even buy an option little bit. Maybe you even buy an option instead. And you're taking the limbs and instead. And you're taking the limbs and you're putting them in the stove. You're you're putting them in the stove. You're firing up the steam engine. Like, it is firing up the steam engine. Like, it is okay. Now that I have these metaphors in okay. Now that I have these metaphors in my mind, I'm growing trees. I'm growing my mind, I'm growing trees. I'm growing trees. I'm growing trees. Wait a second. trees. I'm growing trees. Wait a second. Everybody just panicked on silver. When Everybody just panicked on silver. When the Fed is cutting rates, with the S&P the Fed is cutting rates, with the S&P hitting record highs, I think maybe now hitting record highs, I think maybe now it's time to do a little tree trimming. it's time to do a little tree trimming. Fire up the limbs, put them in the steam Fire up the limbs, put them in the steam engine. I'm I'm going to burn some of my engine. I'm I'm going to burn some of my tree now. There will be a time to grow tree now. There will be a time to grow and trim it later. So, since I got back
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and trim it later. So, since I got back from Peru and I've been drinking that from Peru and I've been drinking that tea deetta and I feel like I have the tea deetta and I feel like I have the trees inside me, I have this little trees inside me, I have this little story. Remember I tell myself stories to story. Remember I tell myself stories to go into the transcendent state? I'm go into the transcendent state? I'm like, Tom, you got to take care of that like, Tom, you got to take care of that tree. Oh, so you sold some call options tree. Oh, so you sold some call options on silver. Oh, you're watching silver go on silver. Oh, you're watching silver go way higher than you thought anybody way higher than you thought anybody would ever take it. The trees are would ever take it. The trees are growing. It's fine. I'll step in and growing. It's fine. I'll step in and I'll trim them next week or, you know, I'll trim them next week or, you know, whenever the time looks right. That whenever the time looks right. That doesn't make me a successful investor. doesn't make me a successful investor. uh peio I'm saying I'm trying to protect uh peio I'm saying I'm trying to protect myself from the biologically myself from the biologically hardwired responses that exist you know hardwired responses that exist you know in my sort of moist robot meat puppet in my sort of moist robot meat puppet whatever your metaphor is I'm trying to whatever your metaphor is I'm trying to guard against the catastrophic thinking guard against the catastrophic thinking that happens in my trader's mind by that happens in my trader's mind by telling myself this different story telling myself this different story remember what I'm doing ah today I'm remember what I'm doing ah today I'm growing trees maybe tomorrow I'll trim
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growing trees maybe tomorrow I'll trim them them >> I mean I did not expect you to talk >> I mean I did not expect you to talk about op, you know, selling and buying about op, you know, selling and buying options. That's awesome. That's very in options. That's awesome. That's very in line with, you know, the content that I line with, you know, the content that I talk about. Uh, thank you for that. Uh, talk about. Uh, thank you for that. Uh, one follow-up question. Have you held one follow-up question. Have you held any assets for long periods of time, any assets for long periods of time, like, you know, more than 5 years or or like, you know, more than 5 years or or more than a few years? more than a few years? >> When my kids were little, I graduated >> When my kids were little, I graduated with my doctorate in 2001. I took kind with my doctorate in 2001. I took kind of a non-traditional route, you know, I of a non-traditional route, you know, I left school, I came back to school. My left school, I came back to school. My kids are little like and I made a kids are little like and I made a decision the day the bomb started decision the day the bomb started dropping in Iraq. So this is you know dropping in Iraq. So this is you know the Bush administration and stuff. This the Bush administration and stuff. This is the response to 911. I said my kids is the response to 911. I said my kids are going to get silver coins when they are going to get silver coins when they lose a tooth. They're not going to get, lose a tooth. They're not going to get, you know, a dollar bill or a $5 bill or you know, a dollar bill or a $5 bill or something like that. And silver was what something like that. And silver was what I bought those coins for, you know, 650 I bought those coins for, you know, 650 a 1 oz coin or something like that. You a 1 oz coin or something like that. You know where they are now? They're over 50 know where they are now? They're over 50 bucks. It's It's hard to get. Like if
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bucks. It's It's hard to get. Like if you want the metallic silver, you got to you want the metallic silver, you got to pay through the nose. What I said at the pay through the nose. What I said at the time was war is inflationary. Like we're time was war is inflationary. Like we're going to borrow a ton of money. We're going to borrow a ton of money. We're going to squander the whole, you know, going to squander the whole, you know, surplus from winning the Cold War and surplus from winning the Cold War and the dot bubble and it's going to go into the dot bubble and it's going to go into bombs. I want my kids to appreciate bombs. I want my kids to appreciate physical metals. And so the tooth fair physical metals. And so the tooth fair is bringing it to them. Well, they've is bringing it to them. Well, they've had those coins their whole life. I had those coins their whole life. I still have the, you know, my kids don't still have the, you know, my kids don't have that many teeth. I still have have that many teeth. I still have [laughter] leftover coins. You know, [laughter] leftover coins. You know, I've made no money. You know, in the I've made no money. You know, in the grand scheme of things, but I teach grand scheme of things, but I teach about inflation, teach my students in my about inflation, teach my students in my engineering business practices class engineering business practices class what happened when Nixon took the dollar what happened when Nixon took the dollar off the gold standards. how that was off the gold standards. how that was inevitable that it was the deficits inevitable that it was the deficits associated with the Vietnam War forced associated with the Vietnam War forced him to do it and we're not going back.
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him to do it and we're not going back. You might say metallic silver is a poor You might say metallic silver is a poor choice. There's costs of storage blah choice. There's costs of storage blah blah blah blah blah. Sure, when you have blah blah blah blah. Sure, when you have that physical relic, it is symbolic of that physical relic, it is symbolic of what's happening. This is there's a what's happening. This is there's a whole concept of inflation and trading whole concept of inflation and trading and things like that. coin is a symbolic and things like that. coin is a symbolic representation of everything else that representation of everything else that has to be held in your imagination. So has to be held in your imagination. So that's one that I've had for 25 years. that's one that I've had for 25 years. Hasn't made me more than, you know, Hasn't made me more than, you know, $1,000. $1,000. And that's okay. It reminds me of what And that's okay. It reminds me of what the whole world is doing right now. the whole world is doing right now. There is no reserve like we're in a There is no reserve like we're in a fractional reserve banking. No, we're fractional reserve banking. No, we're not. We're in fractional infinity not. We're in fractional infinity banking. How do you think that's going banking. How do you think that's going to end? to end? >> Exact. >> Exact. >> I Wow. So, you know, you just described >> I Wow. So, you know, you just described what I consider to be the most important what I consider to be the most important concept to understand when it comes to concept to understand when it comes to investing. Uh there's all these kind of investing. Uh there's all these kind of like uh you know, people that have done
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like uh you know, people that have done traditional education in finance and in traditional education in finance and in economics and the one area that never economics and the one area that never generally gets taught is currency generally gets taught is currency debasement really because the powers debasement really because the powers that be don't want you to know about it that be don't want you to know about it because it's kind of the ultimate thing because it's kind of the ultimate thing that's screwing people over. with, you that's screwing people over. with, you know, my teammate that's 25 years old, know, my teammate that's 25 years old, the the thing that I try to really the the thing that I try to really hammer home with him is is currency hammer home with him is is currency debasement because it just incentivizes debasement because it just incentivizes you to hold assets. You're essentially you to hold assets. You're essentially talking about, you know, hedging against talking about, you know, hedging against that with precious metals with hard that with precious metals with hard money, which is how humans did it money, which is how humans did it forever. The new the new kind of area forever. The new the new kind of area would be Bitcoin, right? That's like the would be Bitcoin, right? That's like the digital version, right? And I know that, digital version, right? And I know that, you know, someone in your age group, for you know, someone in your age group, for example, probably isn't uh you know, example, probably isn't uh you know, Bitcoin first, right? like more there's Bitcoin first, right? like more there's more gold bugs in like the 60-year-old more gold bugs in like the 60-year-old age range than there are Bitcoiners. For age range than there are Bitcoiners. For me, I'm 35 and I've been a Bitcoiner now me, I'm 35 and I've been a Bitcoiner now for 5 years. And I used to own physical for 5 years. And I used to own physical gold. I also owned physical gold. But gold. I also owned physical gold. But I've now sold the physical gold because I've now sold the physical gold because when I sort of extrapolate and I know when I sort of extrapolate and I know that we're only going to get better at that we're only going to get better at technology and I'm not saying this
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technology and I'm not saying this happens in 5 years, 10 years, even 20 happens in 5 years, 10 years, even 20 years, 30 years. At some point, we're years, 30 years. At some point, we're going to mine gold from asteroids. It is going to mine gold from asteroids. It is going to happen. I don't know if that's going to happen. I don't know if that's even in my lifetime, but it is going to even in my lifetime, but it is going to happen. And we're going to mine all the happen. And we're going to mine all the gold out of, you know, the earth. We gold out of, you know, the earth. We don't know the supply of gold. We know don't know the supply of gold. We know the supply of the digital token and the the supply of the digital token and the most robust uh, you know, technology most robust uh, you know, technology network in the world at this point. And network in the world at this point. And we're in the early in early innings of we're in the early in early innings of it. But just I can't believe you you it. But just I can't believe you you proactively brought um selling and proactively brought um selling and buying options up and then you buying options up and then you proactively bought brought uh currency proactively bought brought uh currency to basement up. Those are the two uh to basement up. Those are the two uh things that I'm focused on right now. things that I'm focused on right now. currency debasement and understanding currency debasement and understanding that is way more important than that is way more important than understanding, you know, selling understanding, you know, selling volatility. But it's great to know how volatility. But it's great to know how to sell volatility, especially if you're to sell volatility, especially if you're in a position that happens to be down, in a position that happens to be down, like you bought Tesla the wrong time and like you bought Tesla the wrong time and it's still a great company. They're it's still a great company. They're still making a a bajillion cars a year still making a a bajillion cars a year and they're still led by Elon Musk. It's and they're still led by Elon Musk. It's not a bad company, but the price is, you not a bad company, but the price is, you know, $60 a share lower than where you know, $60 a share lower than where you bought it, and it doesn't look like it's bought it, and it doesn't look like it's going to go back in the next month. Why going to go back in the next month. Why not collect some premium by selling
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not collect some premium by selling volatility on that? Awesome to to hear volatility on that? Awesome to to hear that from you, Thomas. Um, we've been that from you, Thomas. Um, we've been going for an hour and 12 minutes. Where going for an hour and 12 minutes. Where can people find you? Obviously, they can can people find you? Obviously, they can follow you on Twitter. What's your follow you on Twitter. What's your handle? Uh, Morasco's website. Where handle? Uh, Morasco's website. Where should people find you? should people find you? >> S E A G R TP. That's me on Instagram. >> S E A G R TP. That's me on Instagram. That's me on Substack. That's me on That's me on Substack. That's me on Twitter. Substack is where I put a lot Twitter. Substack is where I put a lot of my crazy ideas. moroscoforge.com is of my crazy ideas. moroscoforge.com is where I put my science articles related where I put my science articles related to ice bath science, cold plunge to ice bath science, cold plunge therapy. You want to know testosterone, therapy. You want to know testosterone, go to Amazon. You can buy the uncommon go to Amazon. You can buy the uncommon testosterone book. I got a bigger one, testosterone book. I got a bigger one, uncommon cold. It's more comprehensive, uncommon cold. It's more comprehensive, but you can only get it at but you can only get it at morascoforge.com. morascoforge.com. Yeah, I got a big mouth on Twitter, Yeah, I got a big mouth on Twitter, especially. You want to see me get in especially. You want to see me get in trouble, then that's the place to follow trouble, then that's the place to follow me. me. >> That's the place people get in trouble. >> That's the place people get in trouble. Thomas, thanks so much for joining. Thomas, thanks so much for joining. Everyone, hope you catch you guys next Everyone, hope you catch you guys next time.
