Full Transcript: The Human Case for Sauna and Cold

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all right well thanks Amy for for agreeing to do this I'm really excited to just chat with you more about uh hot and cold exposure uh I know it's something that we're both big fans of that we have come at it from very different angles uh maybe to start with you want to just kind of give a little bit of background on on yourself and you know as you sort of weave that in along the way H how also hot and cold sort of came on to your radar through your medical and otherwise Journeys yeah well you know the first time I went to a sauna that wasn't like some creepy back of the gym kind of a sauna was in Germany where they have a sauna culture yeah and it felt just wonderfully social it was my party trick that anybody coming to visit me when I was there in college yeah I would hey come check this out this is different exactly yeah and you know I think it struck a chord it was something that Drew me to come back yeah right so without the language of like hey this makes you feel better it was something that Drew me regularly yeah especially in a climate like that where you know from October to April it's like drizzling right yeah so you know I think like many things that I have connected with in my professional life something from my past that like leaves a mark right right so that left a mark and um you start picking up these data points and connecting these dots exactly time I mean and and I you know it's kind of comical how I couldn't necessarily like link Medical Care to these things that made me feel good yeah right and what's beautiful about practicing medicine now is that I think we have a a new awareness of how to like look at that and and prescribe it so anyways um

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and and prescribe it so anyways um yeah background wise um you know I feel really fortunate to have started my career in working with the underserved it taught me a lot about being practical what works yeah like what's necessary and maybe what's not necessary and also you know in that world we had a really unique customer focus you know because every client that we served like had to take time off of work and uh so we tried to get as much done as we could yeah like visit and um and a lot of that also looked like nutrition counseling and you know talking about movement and and things like that um yeah so fast forward what do people need it wasn't just the medically Indigent that needed that kind of help um it's you know everybody myself included yeah yeah so um so what brought me to hot and cold I think um you know before I met you it was just an awareness um through trainings that I've done in integrative medicine and in Cancer Care yeah that um you know warming the body is is very healthy yeah and you know and I think that maybe the first time we met you know I was talking to you about like the depression studies where when you heat somebody's core temperature up and hold it there for 90 minutes it's as good as any I mean it's way better than any medication we have but some the other like more popular tools we have right now ketogenic diet H you know psychedelics uh ketamine you know yeah heating the body and something that's simple exactly and it's like one time and it's durable so what you know again like when when we're talking about being practical and like feeling better um and what's acceptable to people that seems like a low hanging fruit yeah yeah what

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like a low hanging fruit yeah yeah what um when when did you start first kind of like thinking about this as a medical treatment and and playing around with that is there sort of like a patient experience or a prototype that sort of comes to mind where you said let me actually try this out uh with a patient and uh suggest something I think when people hear the word prescribe they think that there's a prescription there's something that's written and then you take that to the pharmacy and you get handled like a bottle of pills back right you've kind of Taken prescriptions a little bit more broadly absolutely so um you know one thing about um kind of the relevance and the validity of any treatment we offer is you know it has to be something that people would do yeah right and I would say in the sauna space until I met you and this B you know framework came into existence I didn't really have a place to direct people and um and it felt like a heavy lift to tell people like get a sauna for your home right that's not an accessible option for people and it was never lost on me in all of those trials I've read that the social aspect of sauna is very important um but you know but to the question about like who's the kind of a index patient one of the things that people often ask me about is prevention you know they want to know how they can live longer and better right not just a number of days but like great days right and lifespan and health span exactly and so throw words around that people hear often that's right and so um you know so when people that have risk factors for heart disease or neurodegenerative disease dementia things like that want to know what they can do you know we talk about nutrition we talk about movement but but a huge option that

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movement but but a huge option that shows up is talking about hot in particular yeah and then cold you know and another really interesting population of people that's come up more recently is people that um have been um perhaps I mean biohacking is one term but just using growth hormone so the use of human growth hormone for a variety of kind of longevity and or um pain yeah indications and and um I always have a little bit of pause like when we're talking about like supplementing people with a hormone yeah right because it's a lot we don't know and um and there are protocols that have demonstrated in the use of of heat um ways to just naturally raise people's growth hormone levels um and so that's always going to be a more interesting option to me than um you know like a a pharmaceutical yeah yeah when you I think people read about all these benefits that come from hot and cold you know framework has a bunch listed on our website what's sort of your go-to like quick hit list of of benefits for folks like when you think about why is hot good for you why is cold good for you what are the things that you believe most strongly in because you can of course find a study that says anything right and that you think resonate the most with patients and and people you talk to about it right I mean I think at the end of the day it's it's about kind of stretching that rubber band of the nervous system and um so when you go into the heat you know your body has to adapt and you're doing it in such a way that you control yeah right and so we are in an experience of controlled adaptation uh we can choose to get out right so that's a huge kind of a point the nervous system has to understand right and you know so for instance in heat you know there's all

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instance in heat you know there's all kinds of things that are happening to your cardiovascular system the the body is you know scrambling a little bit to dilate blood vessels you know it's lowering your blood pressure it's um releasing proteins and uh chemical Messengers you know from the cells that um because the system is a little bit stressed uh the system starts to clean house right it's like you're underperform ing get out and the cells that are getting that directive like the underperforming mark you know those are ones that don't serveice well over time those are pre-cancer cells or actual cancer cells you know they are cells that just are using energy not necessarily helping to kind of lift the load right um and then similarly with cold you know you're getting you know anybody that's you know taken those first couple of steps into the tank knows that there is a kind of a core anchoring grounding experience of doing that and again it's voluntary so much about illness or health is about your nervous system's kind of resilience always use that rubber band kind of um analogy and um and in this controlled environment that's also social where you get encouragement you know um you're able to stretch that rubber band in really beautiful ways what what I really love about your answer and seems entirely consistent with the way that you practice medicine too is you know you you didn't immediately go to well there's this study that says if you do this this many times a week you're going to reduce your cardiov vascular disease risk by X and you know I think you and I both believe that those things are true yeah but where I saw you go was immediately the sort of kind of whole body whole person thing that's going on right you talked about things that are going on in a nervous system or you know your your blood vessels your cells but you also talked about choices that

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you also talked about choices that you're making and resiliency that you're building and you know in a lot of ways I think that's one of the biggest benefits of cold is just simply doing something that you don't want to do and regularly doing that over and over again and I'm sure there's kind of a science answer to that but you know just coming at it from a a lay person it seems just like building really good habits and building confidence in yourself that you can do these things and then oh yeah by the way you also are getting some of these physiological and brain benefits as well right that's funny there uh there seems to be a theme right now just doing things you don't want to do yeah doing hard things and how healthy it is for us yeah you know getting over that speed bump of resistance um yeah and you know and it's true I mean to me sure a reduction in all cause mortality of 40% yeah we don't really have much that does that right wearing your seat this is the proverbial like if you could take this pill people would be taking it you know talking about like a zic yeah oh I mean it would be the Blockbuster of Blockbusters right um and but sometimes maybe that's not enough right because this isn't a passive thing right like for me to invite patients which I do often you know like go and do this hard thing right um is a little different than go and take this pill right so you know inviting people to kind of move from passive into active and even that is is really hard right we um we get into these controlled experiences that you know I think for years now we've attempted not to make anything too much right and I don't want anybody son or cold plunge experience to be too much yes but you know but we want to get up to the edge and kind of like open up the window of Tolerance yeah

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open up the window of Tolerance yeah right um which you have to work at and and what's going on in the body as you sort of approach so that building over there is 72 degrees that's very comfortable as our body sits in that uh temperature which most of us do sort of all day long uh our body looks a certain way yeah and then as we dramatically chill our body or heat our body some other things are going on how would you sort of describe what happen happens there and how does that sort of correlate to this like feeling that we have right like the I want to get out whether that means I'm too hot and I want to get out or I'm too cold and I want to get out what's kind of going on you know under the hood of our bodies as we move off those temperatures and and then even you and I were talking before we tape this what's going on when we're at 72 degrees because right maybe that's not the ideal yeah well we could start there you know so when you're in a like we live on an earth right with seasons and so this Earth with seasons is never static right and and even through the course of day right there's day and night right and and we um you know I often I mean I I have to move the metaphor from you know what people eat now for instance is nothing like what people were eating when our genes developed yeah you know to kind of like maximize the potential of the environment they probably didn't have protein in their water as an example they didn't no and um and in the same way you know um the environment that our genes adapted in was not 72 degrees now are we going to argue that 72 degrees is comfortable no yeah because it's nice right as I like to say we have 50, 000 years of human history and 50 years of HVAC history right exactly I mean I grew up in Memphis in the 80s with no air condition like it was hot yeah and you know oddly enough like you could one could do it right it

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like you could one could do it right it wasn't like great but and it was certainly more fun to go into air conditioning but it was possible yeah and I'm not saying like we shouldn't cool people like it's dangerous now like with the way that the climate is Shifting but maybe not 247 365 that's right so you know this is a pretty New Concept in the healthc care literature yeah about Thermon neutrality and inflammation okay that was the word I was coming back to Thermon neutrality yeah exactly so Thermo temperature neutral same just you kind of even keeled right and so people are probably familiar with how um you know it's clear that we all sleep better when we're cooler yeah right and and then looking very specifically at populations that have liver disease which is virtually an epidemic in our world right now this um you know non-alcohol fatty liver disease so when they study those animals and they put them in a Thermon neutral environment they're seeing that you know these are this this is a easy way to induce illness is just simply to keep animals at the same temperature um it's fascinating but so so then clearly there was some reason that we adapted to be able to tolerate heat and cold you know and if if I were to name kind of like a principle about that you know a couple of terms come to mind one is hormesis right like so stressor yeah which is you know within the realm of what one can handle right so a stressor that pushes you towards your Edge and then you bring it back right and so in a sauna for instance that stress is you know that heat stress is you know I mean we have very tightly regulated systems that happen at a certain temperature and we have um kind of all kinds of members of the body on the job yeah to kind of raise and lower different um mechanisms that are going

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different um mechanisms that are going to preserve that Thermon neutrality within the body yeah right so you know within the body lots of systems are working hard to do that so all of that cellular Machinery it's it's like available and it's actually meant to be used and you know the the intelligence of our design is such that when we use that it's actually cleaning house right it's it's taking care of things you know whereas when we're at just kind of a static whether it's just like the same food coming in or the same temperature coming coming in um then the system gets it decays some decays more rapidly right so we we need these little mini stressors regularly to just buff and polish all the systems you know um with the work that I do with cancer patients for instance um you know we can get really in the weak leads on different Pathways you know there's the mtor pathway and the mevalonate pathway and the you know insulin growth factor Pathways but um the one thing that can anchor all of that down would be something like fasting or an experience in a sauna yeah where it's just stressing the body enough that your systems have to kind of like it's like we don't care what yeah going on we're gonna you know clean house yeah and I was fasting maybe is is the right analogy or one of them I was going to ask you sort of what what else would you equate this to that maybe is more talked about or has been for longer and fasting seems maybe like one example of that maybe there's others but this idea that hey kind of breaking away from what we do of that regular routine like of course you're not going to fast for forever right that's starvation yeah um bad but a half a day you know in sort of a Tim restricted eating intermittent fasting type way has

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eating intermittent fasting type way has some some benefits in certain situations sometimes there's maybe reason to go longer than that um would you sort of say uh using these uh hormetic doses of of hot and cold kind of analogizes a little bit to some of these things like fasting and maybe some other things where we sort of know that putting a little bit of non-normal stress is good yeah exactly um we're designed to do that yeah you know and and I think you know just as we can talk about like people need a mission and a purpose and you know and we feel best when we've done something a little like we've accomplish something right and so these are versions of that they they happen to kind of like bring our whole system along yeah with the accomplishing um yeah and then I was just gonna think you know kind of in the same way with cold it's you know I mean I'm going to just admit that there's so much to the mystery of the body that can't be explained right and I think that the literature the scientific research it's all trying to catch up with this um but I think in the same way that we were designed to kind of be able to go without food for a period of time we're we're designed to be able to tolerate you know periods of cold or periods of hot yeah um and and it's because of the design or perhaps the conditions that we're always around it's something that instead instead of thinking of it as a negative the body was like oh if that's what we have to do let's make it part of thriving yeah you know um you know for instance when when people fast and you know fasting is hard being in the sauna is hard but as you get through it there's this you know arrival of something wonderful right there's a reason that culturally things like fasting were baked into every Society on the planet um you know

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Society on the planet um you know there's a reason that things like sauna have been around for centuries you know in in cultural settings because it did more than just what was happening in the moment yeah and I mean to me just one piece of evidence to that is when you start for example cold plunging or using sauna the second and third and Fifth and 10th time feel easier than the first so it's clear that you're building some adaptation and some strength if you will around that much as the same time that the first time you do a workout you know or go for a jog or whatever is harder than when you start to build a little bit of training and around that and so your body clearly is reacting to those things and remembering how to do it and getting better at doing it each time right which to me if you weren't supposed to do it wouldn't be the case just sort of like looking at it logically yeah I completely agree it makes me think about the you know kind of the performance athletes and how you know over time they develop efficiency right like the difference between maybe more like me not you Allen you're really a a very um excellent athlete but you know it's like the difference between me you know me a mere mortal and an Olympian isn't you know the kind of efforting it's the efficiency yeah right and and so again as we kind of train ourselves into these spaces of yeah we're going to push oursel and then ease up right not overtrain yeah yeah let's um let's talk a little bit about the social aspect I remember when you were here a few months ago and we did a sauna talk right I think you broke down kind of all the the research on the health benefits of hot while we were sitting in that sauna over there yes um we should do another one of those but you you said something the effect of um you know most many of the

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effect of um you know most many of the best studies about the health benefits of hot come out of Finland uh and this is probably true from your time in Germany as well those are not solo experiences right those are group experiences there uh you know friends and strangers alike in in there and I think you said something of you know you you wouldn't discount and and certainly think that those health benefits that sort of show up as cardiovascular disease reduction or stroke or hypertension or Alzheimer's and Dementia maybe a key part of that is the social aspect like I'd love to have you kind of expound on on that well I mean even kind of like sauna aside just being able to kind of like connect socially is one of those things that's associated with lower all cause mortality it's not something that we normally like prescribe medically yeah you know but if we could put it in a pill everybody would be taking yeah and you know I think it invites me to just talk a little bit about the idea of co-regulation right because for some people when we talk about like SAA as a social experience that can be arousing like I don't feel like being around people right right and what I want to kind of name here is that it doesn't have to be like a conversation so just simply like us being near one another our nervous systems are co-regulating right and it just happen say more about like what do you mean by co-regulation yeah so um so co-regulation is just a basically just like it sounds like we're regulating our nervous systems together okay so we do that passively there's a lot kind of going on in the background right like I can look at your face I can see that like your eyes are smiling right you don't look you know like upset yeah right and you know and as a result you know and especially because of the many times we've connected like when I'm around you like I notice there's like a relaxing yeah right and you know whereas maybe if you're

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and you know whereas maybe if you're around people that are you know a little bit more um upset or bothered by something like maybe the grocery store clerk is upset about something and you can kind of like sense your own kind of regulation in response right and so because people in a sauna are doing something hard on their own you know typically there's a lot of like kind of self um you know regulating that's going on people are like you know kind of because everyone's working you get to kind of draft off of that yes benefit of we're all working together or maybe we're experiencing this as pleasurable and maybe we're experiencing it as a sense of accomplishment or a thing to be pushed through but yeah you're literally and sort of metaphorically not alone exactly right so there's a camaraderie that can come without necessarily having to be you know kind of built um intentionally yeah right and you know when I think about the the description of this you know of the sauna culture in Finland right there these saunas are available they're kind of a governmental benefit yeah to people um you know interesting you know again for my personal background and you know care of indigent clients in the past um the sauna equalized socioeconomic differences yeah right um and so here you know my in my imagination it's like there's a corner sauna and on your way home from work you can just stop in there and you know how different is that as an experience than maybe if there were a different social experience you know like like maybe the the analogy would like be the British pub you know where like some people can handle that you know but there's a good number of people that weren't able that and so didn't necessarily lead to

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that and so didn't necessarily lead to health right um but here's this group of people so what kind of person like stops in the the sauna four to seven times a week right and if you go that much and you have that incidental contact with people you're seeing people that much yeah over time over years you know those might be kind of really deep bonds that don't have to happen like you know in artificial or even if it's a different set of people each time if you're having those positive interactions maybe you start to look forward to that and the maybe serendipitous nature of you know who's going to be there today um and what kind of interesting people or interesting conversations right do I get into and all of a sudden you've injected something that otherwise is you know maybe it's a chore or feels like a thing you're doing because because you should into something that's you know pleasurable and desirable totally I mean I I think a lot of people might have that same feeling about their gym experience you know and and I would say that there's like very similar attributes to that like you know maybe at the gym if you notice somebody like really nailing it like on a workout and um and you're just you don't even have to say anything but if you you just kind of like appreciate yeah right um similarly you can imagine like the OG and the sauna and a newbie comes in and they're like coaching yeah right mentoring just kind of holding and yeah um you know offering offering some kind of support it's beautiful I mean we've we've mechanized our way out of a lot of incidental contact now yeah and so building that back in I think is critical yeah I mean I think you know that was one of my reactions in starting this was society and the things that have happened along the way from uh you know the the internet through to the pandemic related changes have kind of pushed Us in that one direction of of less public spaces you know when you can

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less public spaces you know when you can get your food and your groceries delivered and your your house is your office and you're doing workouts you know online there's great efficiency benefits at the cost of human interactions and you know I think that's one of the things that I was important to me about the way that we set a framework is putting those in place and I I never thought about as a health thing I just thought about it as a fun thing like it would just be more fun yeah to have this place where you bump into more people and it isn't yet another siloed experience even if you're able to get the hot and the cold but you're in a room by yourself that's a different version of it than we're the room with other people um so you know H happy to hear that there's there's more going on there than than just fun but um you know I sort of came at it just from that perspective well and I think you know for some people like it is fun to be with others and I think for others it's maybe a little bit more of a challenge yeah sure and you know and so kind of bringing in the why right um you know with a lot of things that I recommend people do that are hard you know I want to have like like this is why you know we're like kind of stacking up the reasons you know so that hopefully like after a few experiences maybe that feedback loop starts to kind of come back and say oh actually that was really good that was really useful I mean one thing I love about sauna and cold plunge is that um you know like let's say there's a day where I'm just kind of low energy you know feeling depleted yeah um these are the experiences that that in certain ways are passive but energizing right like in my mind I always know if I work out I'm gonna feel a lot better but there are days where it's like and I really just don't have it yeah you know and so I think sauna is a really good option you know and then there are people for whom you know like maybe because of a joint injury or a you know

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because of a joint injury or a you know some other variable they're just not able to move and and I think there's great evidence that sauna is a surrogate for you know for a workout yeah um it improves cardiometabolic Fitness um and so um yeah another tool in the just that well and that Simplicity right to your point it might be easier to kind of talk yourself off the couch to go sit this SAA andbe by you're there can sit in the C as as compared to knowing You' got to you know lace up the shes and do something that that feels more more active on that sort of day and then you know that may get you re revving up and then the exercise follows because because you've kind of taken the first step with something that's a little more intermediate like like sitting in the hot or sitting in the cold right well and it's not sloppy seconds you know it's like you actually did some stuff yeah you know and I've never left a Sonic EXP ER not feeling like I didn't do anything you know um maybe any any sort of protocol you know people people we talk about this with people a lot you know asking kind of what's the right way to do this um you know how often what temperature how many times you know there's a lot of those sort of howls uh once people get to the what and the why uh and to jump out to you or or you're pretty relaxed on this well I mean I think the the first stop is just like especially for people that haven't done much sauna or cold plunge it's like just go and experiment yeah right so kind of going back to that idea that the this is a stressor that one is it's voluntary right yeah and so you know dipping a toe in kind of seeing how it feels you I remember bringing my dad here right and uh we I was just like all right Dad hop in the cold plunge and he was like Boop and right back out bounced out right it was like I think he was in there for five seconds and he was like you know it

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five seconds and he was like you know it was perfect and um and he had no interest in a longer yeah cold plunge cool he did it and he was in the sauna for a long time and so so protocol wise you know once we move beyond that kind of like all right we've gotten our like experiences feeling comfortable about that maybe ready for some more challenging things so just kind of speaking to sauna you know for cardiovascular risk reduction so you know Now's the Time to kind of pull out those numbers right 60 to 70% reduction in cardiovascular mortality from doing sauna wow yeah right probably should do that and so so that study and the kind of the related studies the dose was at least four times a week and for at least 19 minutes so we just say 20 minutes okay and they're you know and they basically kind of like in the literature describe different phases of adaptation that you go through if you're in the sauna that long so you can imagine I mean that's an effort you know at 180 degrees to uh stay in that environment and it does kind of a invite one to go inward right yeah can be really beautiful um so 20 minutes and four times a week four to seven times a week now contrast that with um you know the way framework is set up really for like sauna cold plunge like repeated experiences you know from what I've read that is actually more aligned with like a growth hormone release experience um and so I don't know that you know the options that people have here are as well studied um but it's okay right because I think it's also true it's like you're doing that you know I think for me from from the

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you know I think for me from from the beginning the cold plunge has been the bigger challenge um the literature on that you know mostly comes from the sports performance world you know trying to reduce things like exercise induced muscle soreness and Recovery um and there are several protocols from a 40 degree protocol of three minutes to a 60 degree protocol of a half hour yeah um and again I think that the literature is not clear enough on what's perfect right so it's really more like what are you interested in what are you willing to do yeah I mean from my my reviews you know we we have quite a bit of data on sauna usage and and studies that I think people feel pretty good about around some of these chronic disease reductions uh things like growth hormone as you spoke about uh lighter research on cold and next to zero research about the combination of the two and so you know it feels like it's one of the things I found funny when I got into this space you know these are things that people have been doing for a very long time hundreds thousands of years right people jumping in cold water and building you know fire heated pits that effectively were saunas and and we know and have a lot of suspicions of how good they are for you but not as much of the data that we're used to in many other areas of of medicine right on exactly what and why and how yeah you know I think that the it's coming at a beautiful time where the I think and it's very consumer-driven like hey people do these things and it makes them feel better yeah right these are cultural practices that been going on for you know hundreds if not thousands of years and so what's going on behind the curtain right so whether it's you know fasting or sauna or cold plunge or um you know various practices that that cultures have gotten

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practices that that cultures have gotten into um there's some kind of aspect of well-being behind it right and it's cool we're catching up I um I don't want to keep you too much longer but but one question that jumped out that I know is really tied to a lot of work that you do is around cancer and it was something that struck me the first time that we met because I feel like and if you just look at this conversation we often times talk about these practices in this prevent of Health manner right like presuming that you're sort of more so looking to stay healthy than you know in a more therapeutic type manner can you talk a little bit about what you've learned about the use of I think it's prbly hot but correct me if I'm wrong right around cancer patients and cancer treatment um because that's something I think has not gotten the airtime that some of these preventative areas have but I know is something that is near and dear to your heart absolutely so so first of all um cancer uh you know if we go back to earlier in our conversation we're talking about like getting an auna and how metabolically the stress makes the entire system kind of sit up and go you know underperforming cells time for you to go right so those experiences basically weed out underperforming cells that are at risk for becoming cancerous yeah right so cancer it's a mitochondrial disorder yeah sauna is going to be your MIT andrial challenge right and and so I think early and often right doing things that just help your body clean house right it's like opening the door of a closet that's organized is a lot more fun than one that's not yeah and so these are practices you know alone or in combination with things like intermittent fasting that that help the system to optimize so specifically though with cancer you know um I was introduced to this essentially like this is kind of still in the preventative bucket right like you're doing doing

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bucket right like you're doing doing things like hot and cold and some of these hormetic stresses of which fasting was another example sort of are some of the best things we can do to broadly create an environment in our body that is less predisposed to cancer or something exactly well you can think use your words but yeah like all chronic illness you know is basically some version of the same thing which is is poor performing cells yeah you know kind of just weighing getting excess baggage over time yeah right not having a chance to clean house and like you know and and so whether it's heart disease and the atherogenic particles that like line the blood vessels over time yeah neurodegenerative disease and the development of these amalo plaques cancer and the mitochondrial dysfunction that leads those cells to no longer play by the rules and metabolic diseases of the liver and endocrine system like diabetes and fatty liver disease these are all you know I think it's just individuals develop these things over time based on their genetic vulnerabilities okay so so this is a tool that's going to hit all of those things and um and then specifically in the cancer world so you know from the traditional Chinese medicine World cancer is a cold disease and so one of the ways you know like without sounding wacky you know that we treat cancers to warm people right warming therapies and um and if we take that just maybe more into the realm of like science you know so think about I mean I described you before um places in the world where when they give chemotherapy they do it in a sauna right and so those same you know kind of things that that challenge you know kind of press the capacity of a cell to tolerate something well just imagine if

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tolerate something well just imagine if you're like you got to take chemo right I mean or you don't have to but this this you know people that op to take chemo you know it's a cell damaging thing and it's systemic right so we want to deliver the lowest possible dose right right and the cancer cells are vulnerable in certain ways so they're vulnerable to drugs like Platinum based chemotherapies because they damage the DNA well so if you give that thing to a cell that's stressed already yeah that's a really good thing right healthy tissue tends to be able to withstand that stuff so what better way to stress yeah you know and so there are different options to give people chemo you can give people chemo in a sauna you can give people chemo while they're exercising yeah like on a bike huh you know in a fasted state right they're all just different you know and so everybody has a kind maybe a different you know thing they're drawn to or would be acceptable like you have to do something hard like chemo yeah and then similarly if you think about uh you know chemotherapeutic agents as being in the circulatory system anything that like speeds up blood flow and and opens up the blood vessels yeah is going to improve the ability of that drug to actually make it to the Target tissue right so again yeah we're talking about the backdrop of things we know right SAA dilates the blood vessels so you know so exercise and heat are like just lwh hanging fruit in my book and it what's interesting is that you can actually do like for instance you could do the sauna and then go get your chemo yeah and then similarly with even radiation therapies like you can do do a sauna experience and then go get your radiation and the uh dilation of the tissue the dilation of the blood vessels around the tissues delivering a little bit more of an oxidative stress yeah you know to the cells so they're a little bit more vul vulnerable at the time that they're getting an even greater challenge it's I

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getting an even greater challenge it's I mean it's cool is this something that's happening broadly is is this a a new idea is it um strikes me as something that hasn't gotten talked about even where I've listened to a lot of information about about sauna the application here is not something that it's kind of Hit the popular press and places that I've looked well you know I think one of the barriers to doing things like this is that um like our current delivery system for Cancer Care is really locked into you know kind of like an overarching theme called standard of care right and and I appreciate the fact that developing protocols and guidelines and studying people is a it's an enormous undertaking it's also true that you know sauna because it's not it's an individual you know it's like framework not going to be able to afford to like run a clinical trial with this okay and that's just a it's a very common kind of limitation of our current medical research body which is that they don't fund research on nutrient like vitamins yeah you know these practices wouldn't necessarily be funded you know because there's nobody to pay for it um but the the practices have been around for a long time and there's an emerging field of metabolic oncology Thomas sea freed D dagostino Nisha Winters um you know these are just people kind of like um I think you know especially driven by a lot of clinicians who have cancer themselves they're like I've got nothing to lose it's time to like push this and um yeah and in different parts of the world it's definitely the standard right so if you're in Mexico and you're getting you know cancer treatment you're going to be getting it in a sauna if you're in turkey and you're getting chemo you're going to be getting it in a SAA yeah so not only is the US lagging in overall sauna adoption in terms of just

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overall sauna adoption in terms of just you know day-to - day and preventative practices but uh also lagging in sort of this area of pairing it with yeah with cancer treatment we're like I think the numbers are getting worse but we're not the best in the world for health outcomes yeah right and so this is part of why right yeah and so things like this that are really low low risk for harm um you know should be more broadly embraced but you know and again as you know my family's been through a cancer experience when you bring these questions up in the clinical setting yeah you know I think that a couple of things are at play you've got a busy doctor who hasn't been trained in it who really doesn't have the time to entertain the conversation yeah and they have so many kind of other forces you know kind of asking for their time and energy right that it um yeah I think the best answer that you can get is often I don't know anything about that and you know I can't recommend it um which can feel like a shut door for a lot of people yeah yeah well I'm glad we were able to to open that topic a a little bit here and and you know really encouraging to hear that something that hopefully is kind of becoming more popular in the US as more people are doing this that we can yes connect the dots on these two things a little bit more um let's let's wrap here but before we do can you just introduce a little bit about um mream as well just so folks kind of know you're yeah uh what you're working on in that part of your life okay yeah so mindstream integrative medicine right down the street um is a full spectrum um medical facility so we take care of people from nine months of age and older and um we perform we play in the sandbox of Western medicine so everything that happens in that traditional setting can happen at mindstream so Wellness visits and

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mindstream so Wellness visits and physicals and things like that but we've expanded our toolkit and again it's you know whether we're doing it or we're linking people up with tools like yours um we have we're you know very curious about the things that work yeah and um so you know we take care of a really educated clientel people often come to us with their ideas and if we don't know this kind of like how I spent six months asking you to be my doctor and then finally you agreed yeah no I mean and so I think that you know fundamentally we bring an air of curiosity yeah to the clinical encounter and then um so we we do a lot of work in the mental health space um we have a gym that we uh opened recently um and we are just increasingly kind of adding to the repertoire of things available we've trained recently in ketogenic diets for mental health we've been doing for cancer patients for a long time um and again we tend to follow where Effectiveness data leads us right so something looks really effective which is a little bit of a wild statement amazingly in the medical field huh um yeah it seems crazy doesn't it yeah well and some you know again I mean I think that a lot of things that don't get adopted in traditional practice happen because there's no time yeah and that's the thing we're trying to kind of like weed through and you know and just say hey if time's the only barrier then we just have to get more curious about how to fix that yeah yeah well thank you speaking of time thank you for for carving this out today um I uh had a few questions in advance and then just mostly kind of pulled on things that seemed interesting uh so thanks for chatting should we go uh do a little bit of the sauna and the cold here little about 10 feet to our left yes all right thanks Amy all right thanks Alan