Modern wellness often turns recovery into a collection of tools. This conversation brings it back to something quieter: the way deliberate stress, breath, heat, cold, and consistency teach the body to adapt.
Michael R. Hunter frames the subject through practical experience and accessible science. The strongest thread is simple. Resilience is not built in one extreme session. It is built through a ritual the nervous system can trust.
Every single week there's a new biohacking tactic out there. Sauna, cold plunge, red light. You're on the forefront of these modalities and this cutting edge science. What's next? What is this next horizon of the next tool, the next tactic that's going to move the needle for people? There's no silver bullet. And there's a lot of really cool unique stuff that's coming out. But getting human beings to slow down and reconnect with nature is the ultimate biohack. The existing medical institution is just there to make sure you're alive, not to make sure that you're optimized. On this show, you'll meet people who have gone from six figures in a year to six figures in a month, in a day, in an hour, and even a minute. You'll hear their story, the strategies that worked, the insights that changed everything, and the lessons they learned along the way. This is the Six Fig podcast. And a lot of these biohacking equipments, they're really just mimicking nature. So, if you look at something as simple as red light therapy, right? It's using wavelengths that mimic the sun. If you're talking about cold water, you know, cold therapy, ice baths, all that, just mimicking, you know, a cold stream. If you look at saunas, right, they've been used for thousands of years by different indigenous populations throughout the globe using things like sweat lodges or in Mexico, teascal. So, it's really the old stuff that's coming back and seems to move the needle. But ultimately, you know, as human beings, our life is so interesting right now. We have so much stimulation from the outside world and that's relatively new. I mean, I'm 47 years old. I just turned 47 a few days ago and when I was younger, even in my teenage years, I did not have that much contact with the rest of the world. So, just think of how that's impacting us on a daily basis by always being on, always having to respond, learning how to really like settle down in the evenings, staring at screens late at night. Those are the things that are really causing the most chronic stress. getting people to just change their habits and essentially reverse as if they were living, you know, 100, 200, 300 years ago. You know, it's impossible to do that because of the type of lifestyle that we have. But
the type of lifestyle that we have. But there's so many different things that you can do to mimic what our ancestors were doing. You know, I I'll take a simple idea like lighting. We all know by now that, you know, bright lights are bad for you in the evenings because of the blue light, because of the melatonin production. Well, what did our ancestors do? They stared at fires and candles in the evenings, had conversation, played music, and settled down. And what were they staring at? Red light, right? The fire, the candle. So, there was no blue light stimulation. And so, how do you do that in today's world? Well, everybody's got a big TV that they're watching. Maybe they're watching Netflix before bed or they're trying to answer emails or if they're scrolling on social media. So, it's really about reversing the habits. It's more about the habits than this new technology is just going to change the game. Now, there's some great stuff out there. Uh the hypobaric oxygen, you know, the different red light therapies, there's all kinds of peptides and like really cool stuff that can help out and shorten the time of recovery. But ultimately, it all lies within us and it's us connecting with ourselves, us settling down, us prioritizing family, relationships, then giving all of our energy to, you know, everyone else around us. And so we're always trying to catch up. We always feel like we need to catch up because there's just so much stimulation. That's such a amazing perspective. Michael Roiello, thank you so much for joining me on the SixFig podcast today. Former Navy rescue swimmer, corporate executive, founder of Optimize here in Scottsdale, Arizona. Built a massively successful business here in the local market. really helping people bring these types of modalities to the forefront to really help optimize people's way of being, way of living, recovery. And I'm so excited to learn more about your story, your background, how optimize even came to be, and how you have found business success in service of bringing what you just described as these ancient rituals to
described as these ancient rituals to the marketplace in a practical, accessible way. So, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. Let's uh start to talk a little bit about optimize since we we're on this um this wavelength of talking about these different modalities based off of what you just said. You know, right now methylane blue peptides, you know, all these different therapies are really these big trends, but what you're saying is that just going back to what being human actually is is a biohack in and of itself, right? So what I heard you speak to and around and would love to more of your insight on this is you know it doesn't matter if you're have all the peptides you're doing all of the different modalities that that do make a big difference the methylane blue the peptides if you're not getting good sleep if you're not eating well if you're still binge watching Netflix till 2 in the morning all of those other things to do could actually be causing more harm there needs to be a much more holistic approach to wellness so talk to us a little bit about that philosophy that that we were starting to talk about here well longevity you know, uh, sector is really popular. It's a trendy word. Um, people are living longer, that's for sure, in many ways. Although there's some like data to show that the younger generation might not live as long because of, you know, the environmental toxins, the lifestyle, um, the mental health is like huge, right? Especially, I would say for for all of us, uh, but for the younger generation for sure. I just got back from Sicily. I went to go visit Sicily last September and that's where my grandparents come from. So my mom's uh parents uh immigrated from Sicily and came over to New York City in you know the early 1900s. And when I walked around Sicily I saw a lot of healthy people you know uh body weight uh percentage right um just the way they looked overall the types of activities that they were doing. And I couldn't find any biohacking clinics in Sicily. Interesting. Yeah, there was no biohacking. It's it's a very simple life. So, you know, there's so many wonderful things that
there's so many wonderful things that you can do and and we have access to like great technology here in the US, but you go to a place like Sicily, this big island off the coast of Italy, and you see people living long healthy lives and they're not eating perfect. You know, that's the other thing people always say, oh, you know, people in Europe, they eat so much better. I would say the quality of the food is definitely improved there. And Italy has some of the strictest regulations on like glyophate and all that kind of environmental toxins that go on our crops. And so they're really strict there. And I can feel the difference which a lot of people talk about like, oh, I can go to Europe and I can eat bread. I don't feel bad. I don't feel lethargic. Eat all the pasta. Yeah. And now you have this big trend right now which is like carnivore and keto which I think are great movers especially for people who are not well dealing with autoimmune or Parkinson's. You're you're seeing some like really good results uh that uh doctors and scientists have have been talking about which is great. But they eat in Sicily they were eating uh arenchinis which are like big rice balls for breakfast and they were eating croissants and they actually eat mostly carbohydrates like meat is not a big part of their diet. You know there's pizzeras pretty much everywhere. So pizza and bread is like a big staple and here in the United States that's like big no no right everyone's telling you don't eat the carbs you know only eat avoid dairy information all of that and they eat dairy they have lots of cheese obviously Italy's known for that but really the main driver I think of the longevity and the good health is one they're out and about you know here in Arizona we we drive everywhere and obviously we hide from the sun you know during the summertime so they're out and about they walk a lot So, they're walking to the market, they're buying groceries, they're socializing, they um have that old kind of tribal mentality still. Listen, your checkout page has one job to do, make you money. And if your checkout page has too much
your checkout page has too much friction, you're going to lose sales. So, we created the highest performing, easiest to navigate checkout system on the market. But don't take my word for it. Put it to the test at spiffycheckouts. com. Okay, back to the show. They walk to breakfast. They walk to lunch, they walk to dinner, you know, so they're doing a lot of walking. And so when you look at things like carbohydrates and yes, it raises your glucose levels. And if you eat a lot of carbohydrates and then go straight to the car and then straight to the house and you've only walked from the driveway to the front door and now you're going to sit on the couch for 2 three hours before you go to bed, you know, where does that glucose go? And so you just feel a lot better when you walk to dinner and you have a big meal and then you walk back to your house. you know, you're utilizing that glucose and so it's really in the lifestyle. Plus, they're very social. I think that's a big component, right? Mentally healthy, like mind is the builder. And so, if you're not healthy mentally, you that's also going to impact, you know, your your physical body as well through the mind body connection. And so, they're socializing, they're walking, they're spending quality time with family, they're not in a rush, you know, and how essentially they go about their lives, whether it's dinner time or anything like that. So, it's really the pace of life and of course like better food quality and the amount of walking that they're doing because you know you saw a lot of I wouldn't say fit people but a lot of like healthy human beings. Throughout my trip in both Barcelona and Sicily I didn't see any like really fit ripped people you know on occasion I did. So, it's like the gym bro um culture is is really not there or at least in the parts of Polarmo where I was. And so, everyone just looked like good healthy human beings and they were just doing the most simple things, you know, spending quality time with family, walking, eating good food, slowing down. They had good habits, rituals, and routines. And so I think that is the most important thing that the market is missing because everybody's looking for the next gadget, the next thing that's
the next gadget, the next thing that's going to move the needle, the next thing that's going to reverse aging. And their life expectancy is really high there. And I was seeing 80, 85year-old, you know, men and women like walking, no crutches, no wheelchairs, you know, just like living their life and enjoying their life, playing cards on the beach, you know, on a Tuesday. And so they're really social and I think when they've done a lot of the studies on the blue zones, right, those are the things that really stand out. Yeah. You know, they really stand out across all these cultures globally. That's great insight and perspective. I'm I'm really excited to in a moment go back in time to your time as a Navy Seal rescue swimmer and how that experience in your life really impacted you as an entrepreneur, you as a business owner. And you know, first and foremost, I'm a a member of Optimize. Optimize played a critical part in my life during a season of my life that was really important to speak to what you just described going to your website understanding what optimize is. You have all the technology there to benefit people but you do a great job of bringing community together and that's really I think a differentiating factor of what you do just for me from the outside is that like you understand that yes these modalities and these tools are beneficial and just the community aspect of it. You're constantly doing events. you're constantly allowing people to leverage your space um to to bring people together for u a variety array of different uh types of classes and experiences and things of this nature. And so yeah, I just want to say I honor and respect what you've built um from from Optimize as as a paying customer and then also just seeing the impact that you had in the local community and um yeah, it's it's really cool to see what you built. But before we go back in time, I mean entrepreneurs these days are so focused on building apps and technology companies. Uh what led you to building Optimize and going the brickandmortar path when there's so many shiny object opportunities making money online? What really prompted now four locations um across the Phoenix area?
locations um across the Phoenix area? How did Optimize come come to be? Really started with community. Um, so ultimately, I mean, there's a lot of story there that I'm sure we'll catch up, you know, when we get to other points about my past and history. I started working for Wimhof in 2017. I went to an event that he was hosting in LA, and I was already practicing the Wimhof method, doing the breathing exercises, the cold plunges, and really working on my mindset overall. So, I had some experience prior to that. I found that he was going to be hosting an event in LA. So, I just like took a weekend trip, went out there to meet him. I was really excited about everything that he was sharing. I really liked his message about healthy, happiness, and strength being like the main pillars of the Wimhof method. That was something like I felt like I could really get behind. I like that he was talking a lot about nature. You know, connecting deeply with nature. And so Whim is a great example because, you know, in the longevity world, you know, everyone in the world would probably give him a red light therapy, a cryo chip. They'll give him anything he wants because he has such a big platform. and he still does a cold plunge literally in like his cold little pond that he has on his property or he has like a chest freezer that he uses like he just he doesn't get into all the gadgets, you know, he's really big about connecting with nature. And so I was working a corporate job at the time doing really well working for a university as an executive. I was a senior director of operations for the office of military and veteran affairs for university. My soul was like yearning for something deeper, you know. I I really had like two separate lives, you I had my corporate life that I was living and I was making good money and uh doing well kind of climbing up the chain and then on the other hand I had all of these like unique interests right Ice bats and breath work and I was going down to the jungle to do Iasa and so I felt like I couldn't really share that part of my life you know with my colleagues uh at my work environment at the time and so I was just like really drawn to Whim's message and so ultimately it all started off with the Wimhof method because once I left that seminar on my way home. I made the
seminar on my way home. I made the decision that I was going to leave the corporate world. I was going to get into entrepreneurship and that I wanted to become one of the US-based instructors for Wimhof and work for his organization and spread that. So, really I had to pivot um once I left the university. It took me like 6 months to leave. We made like you know a great deal for me to exit in a good way and also gave me time to like work on my certification and so ultimately it started off with me just hosting workshops and so I was really just going to be mobile. I wasn't going to do brick and mortar. I really just wanted to be mobile because I worked in a corporate environment for like 14 years. And then prior to that, I was in with the US Navy and so I was just going wherever the Navy needed me to be, which was mostly overseas living on aircraft carriers. So I was going to be mobile and just teach workshops. But I had so many wonderful people that were coming to my workshops and I was like hearing all these stories and what they were going through and you know whether it was like loss of life, somebody lost a daughter or whether it was some sort of trauma that they were processing or they were dealing with some sort of disease or illness you know autoimmune and they were just like looking for answers and the Wimhof method was just so simple you know it was like this breathing exercise that was rooted in science uh that we can you know talk about the physiology and plus I also noticed People were really interested in learning how the body works. I mean, you can go through all the universities, all the schooling, elementary, middle school, high school. You know, I went and got two master's degrees and an undergraduate degree. I didn't learn anything about, you know, the mind or the body, how it works. And so, I think people are really frustrated because they just keep passing away their authority to the medical, you know, field, right? to the doctor just saying listen I don't know what's going on here these are my symptoms like tell me what to do and uh people were getting passed around the system go to this specialist go to that specialist maybe not having the results that they were looking for so people started to take initiative and really started to explore and the part
really started to explore and the part that they were super passionate about was how does the body work what is inflammation yeah my doctor mentioned that in u you know the conversation we had but I quite know what that is. You know, is it good? Is it bad? You know, inflammation is normal, right? Like it's obviously part of the immune response, but in excess, it's problematic. And so, people are really interested in just learning about the like human physiology. And I was really interested in that. So, it just got me back in the books, learning about chemistry and biology and all the things that I didn't really express that much interest in when I was taking science classes in high school. But now as an adult, it was really interesting because, you know, it was applicable to what I was dealing with, which I was dealing with a pretty serious injury is kind of how I got into all of this. Right. And uh it really just started off with community building and getting people together and having like wonderful music. One of the things I introduced very early on in my workshops was music from around the world. And that really came from my experiences in um plant medicine ceremonies. And I was always so intrigued like, oh my god, there's so much beautiful music out there that we just don't hear, you know, it's not being played on the radio. It's not, you know, uh, top 10, you know, pop music or anything like that, but there was these crazy cool instruments like digos and native flutes and, uh, all kinds of, uh, African drums. And, you know, I was really, um, drawn to that. So, I brought that into the experience. So, the experience really became, yes, we're learning about our physiology. Yes, we're learning about the science. Yes, we're learning how to do this breathing exercise and how it can, you know, impact you uh on whatever you're working on because a lot of people who have autoimmune diseases are drawn to the Wimhof method uh because um what he's promoting essentially is very powerful anti-inflammatory naturally. I I saw that a lot of people were trying to move away from medications and they were just like sick of being on medications and
like sick of being on medications and didn't like the idea that they're just going to have to take this medication forever. They wanted to find a pathway out of there. And so when you do workshops at the end of the workshop, it's kind of like what's next? And I was an early new entrepreneur just finding my way. And and about what time frame is this? Like what what year was this roughly? Really? 2017. Okay. Yeah. 2017. So I I met with Mim Whim. I uh went through his program. I got certified uh both in LA and then Mount Hood, Oregon is where we did our M's course. And then once I got the certificate, it was like off to the races, you know. And so I started hosting workshops locally. And then also getting some like, you know, gigs outside of the state. And we did a workshop in New Jersey at the UFC gym. And I was also traveling a little bit to California because uh the message was strong. and people were seeking out Wimhof instructors and there wasn't many of us. But the problem I ran into is at the end of the workshop like what's next? And I didn't have all of the skill sets or even know how of like creating some online program or some sort of like way to to keep them you know uh involved. Right. Um so essentially I would just invite them back to the workshop and I found that some people had come to my fundamentals workshop like five different times. Wow. And it was really the same information. You know, I obviously I've built on it and I've grown that workshop over the years, but they just liked being in that environment and they always learned something new and they got deeper in their practice and they made connections in the workshop. They were meeting like-minded people that they could, you know, really share with and be vulnerable with and have like honest conversations. And so I was like, "Okay, there's something here." Like people really want to be here. And so they're always like, "When's your next workshop? When's your next event? When's your next this?" And so essentially that's how I was operating. And then we realized that it would make the most sense to have a brick and mortar, have a place where
brick and mortar, have a place where people can physically go, have the doors open 7 days a week, you know, just to be as available as possible, and allow people to come and experience the modalities. not quite in a workshop type fashion, but while you're there, I'll train our teammates, our staff on education, on how this stuff all works, how it connects the dots with certain issues that people might be facing. And then also, you just start getting data from people because you have so many people that come through, right? I've like serviced thousands of people over the years. And what are like the common things that people are dealing with in our society? you know, as it's sleep, it's chronic stress, it's anxiety, it's inflammation, it's pain, you know, and then you start to connect the dots of like, okay, like what are the root causes? Where's this all coming from? And people were trying to solve it in many different ways. And so the brick and mortar gave us an opportunity to physically be with people, meet with people, connect with people, and give them an outlet, you know, in this busy, crazy world that we live in. even if it's for an hour just to disconnect and put their phone away and just focus on themselves. And then the music that we brought in was really a lot of the shamanic music that I had experienced through all of these different plan ceremonies prior cuz I was, you know, chasing solutions for mental, emotional, physical pain as well. And also getting back in touch with spirituality, which I thought at the time like wasn't an important factor in overall health. Now I realize it's like a really important factor in your overall health. And so I've leaned into that even more. And so ultimately, you know, you just get to meet wonderful people. You give them an outlet for a place to go where they feel welcome and you get to help solve and solve problems, but really you're helping them create new routines. Because I think the magic that everyone's looking for, you know, the the silver bullet in health and mental
the silver bullet in health and mental health, it's not in a gadget, it's not in a pill, it's not in a supplement, it's not in a peptide. It's in our routines and also our routines of our thoughts, right? What is the record that we are playing every day in our mind? How do we talk to ourselves? How do we talk to other people? And how is that shifting, you know, our reality? And so you're really just helping people to create new rituals, new routines, and uh prioritize their health. And so our mission statement really was helping people take back control of their health, you know, and that was like the main driver is to like get people to take control of their health and stop giving away their authority to the medical system and just going forward with whatever the doctor shares with you. Yeah. And um I wanted people to be able to go to that doctor and start asking good questions because now they know how their body works and they have more information about it. So I just kind of made physiology and anatomy and uh science fun that people can digest and learn and be interested in. And now I'm kind of seeing it everywhere which is fantastic because every entrepreneur and every podcaster and this whole industry is also like factoring in being healthy as a a part you know positive part of obviously being successful and I started to see that trend when I went to seminars because back in the day you went to seminars they didn't talk about health they just talk about making money you know how do you make as much money as possible and now you know there's always a guest speaker to talk about health and you know routines and all that kind of stuff. Y so as a race we've kind of shifted you know we're paying more attention to that and knowing that that's really an important factor because what's the point of being you know 60 years old and having all this money and having all this success and all these properties and investments if you can't enjoy it,
you can't enjoy it, right? You know and so I think more people are intrigued by that now. Absolutely. And I just really want to highlight that, you know, now and maybe for the last couple years, you know, ice baths and sauna and cold plunges are have taken over the internet, but you've been doing that for almost a decade. I mean, probably in your personal practice longer, but but specifically building the community around that, bringing those modalities. you were on the forefront of of a lot of this movement that now is is almost cliche um or or just almost um overdone. But you you were one of the pioneers of bringing these types of modalities to the market and uh thank you so much for sharing all of that uh perspective and insight because I remember even my first time walking into optimize back in 2021. Uh it was that experience. It was like almost an immersive experience like I'm in the middle of Scottsdale, Arizona. I was like walk into this new world that was relaxing, rejuvenating, had all these different modalities. Um I honestly don't remember my whether it was you or Jesse that was there on that very first day, but one of you guys just walked me through all of the different modalities. Like you you explained the science and the education piece, there was the experiential piece. There was just so many different factors that uh you know that clearly you you knew worked because you were doing that in your uh community events before you even created a brick and mortar. But there's so much uh business wisdom and business insights and perspective to glean from the story that you just told about doing something slightly different. And oftentimes it's not about reinventing something um that's brand new or or inventing the next Amazon or the next unicorn company. It's about through your own life experiences, how can you bring these different pieces together in a unique way that hasn't been done before. And I just wanted to really uh touch on on those different pieces and you know specifically to the the how early you were in helping educate, teach, train
were in helping educate, teach, train and give people opportunities to take control over their health. You know, now in the aftermath of 2020 and all the disclosure that comes out, it's quite objective that the institutions out there aren't really that don't really have our best interest in mind. Me from my personal story, I remember going to the doctor. I was experiencing some really interesting symptoms where no matter whether I ate a cheeseburger or a salad, uh, I had the same kind of like irony taste in my mouth. And I go and get get a checkup, get my blood taken out, like, oh, like this liver enzymes a little high, but otherwise you're good. I'm like, um, no, like this isn't okay. And really, that was my peeling back of of the curtain of the veil of of the existing medical institution is just there to make sure you're alive, not to make sure that you're optimized. And so, uh, there's this difference between, uh, how much credibility and trust that we place into, um, presumably institutions that we think are supposed to be there to help us live really vital, vibrant quality of life when really they're just checking to make sure that nothing that you're not going to die tomorrow, they're not even built for that. we have the wrong expectations, you know, and how much of that uh you know, I just really want to commend you on your foresight and and taking action back when it wasn't popular. And so, um yeah, just really want it was definitely not popular because I remember telling my parents at the time that I was going to be leaving, you know, this senior director of operations position. I was getting groomed to potentially be a vice president. and I was doing all the right things and my family knew that I was doing ice baths for my own health and then to know that I was going to be going into a business where I would be doing this for a living. They were terrified. Yeah. They're like that is a really bad decision. People are not going to want to do that. Only athletes, you know, might be interested in doing that. And so it was really fringe. Yeah. What what was that decision point like? I mean, presumably six-figure
like? I mean, presumably six-figure corporate income. You have this calling and and this desire for more. Like, there's a lot of people listening to this episode that might be in a similar crossroads where they have the talent, they have the calling, but haven't quite made that decision to make the leap. What was that experience like in those moments of having this really awesome corporate job, secure, great income, fast path to VP and, you know, tell us a little bit about that dynamic and the the thought process and and really what it what went into making that decision to make the jump. Yeah, that was scary and hard for me because you know, I grew up in Queens, New York, a single mom raising four kids on her own. We just didn't have a lot of excess money. there was no family vacations or you know I didn't get to experience a lot of things that other people did like we were just surviving and so in my household money was always um challenging it was always one of those things that kind of like not enough type mentality you know like don't have enough and I come from very bluecollar upbringing you know just like you go out there you punch in you do your work you know my family always promoted you get a good job that has good benefits that has, you know, a pension. All great advice in many different ways. There was no one really entrepreneurial that was like pushing me to like go start a business. I always kind of fantasized about it, but I always just had really good work ethic. And so, you know, I had a lot of odd jobs, right, as a teenager and then I went into the military when I was 20. So, I worked for the government. So, I understood what it was like to work for the government for many years. And there's pros and cons to working for the government. And so I had that experience. And then I was in this corporate sector, which was also new for me when I separated from the military for 13 and a half years, working my way up the chain, you know, from essentially entry - level position to a mid-level manager to a director and then eventually a senior director. So I kind of learned the game of that. There's a
of learned the game of that. There's a lot of politics involved in uh climbing the ladder in corporate. You know, it's not just about what you know. It's really I would say all industries politics is really important you know even in business right making relationships all that um so I understood the military sector to an extent I understood the corporate sector to an extent and I always just like fantasized about entrepreneurships and I always saw like oh wow you know this guy started this company and then there's the CEO right which is usually hired and the CEO is the boss and everybody always looked up to the CEO but the real guy in charge actually was the founder, you know, because he has a creative direction, you know, um like what's coming new or the vision and and I was really attracted to that because when I worked in the corporate world, no matter how smart you are or what you knew, there was so many layers to getting anything approved. So even if you had like a really good idea that you think could move the needle and and change things. And I was in operations, so we're always looking to streamline things, make things more efficient, you know, that's like how my brain works. Um, I realized like a lot of my ideas like never quite made it to the top, you know, where it's actually went to like an implementation phase. It's always frustrated me, you know, and so I always wanted to have the opportunity to have an idea, put it in action and like see if people like it, you know, and get that feedback and see if it generates money and revenue. And so I always fantasized about it, but you know, it was really scary for me because it was like, "Oh, wait. I'm so used to getting paid every two weeks. I'm used to getting these bonuses. You know, I'm used to having paid time off and sick time and 401k matching and all these great perks that you get from that environment." And so, um, I used to tell people like I had golden handcuffs, you know, like the the money is kind of what kept me in the job that I wasn't super passionate about anymore. And so through many really plant medicine ceremonies and kind of learning about myself and
and kind of learning about myself and learning about my patterns and learning about my fears, um my subconscious is really what pushed me to say, okay, this is the next chapter for you and you've done the work, you know, you've done the personal development like like you're ready. And so it was about taking that leap of just being cut off from the, you know, by by monthly pay, right? And that was like one of the last chapters for me because I had already been exploring all this stuff and my health journey for years before I came across Wimhof and for years before I came into, you know, uh, co-founding Optimize with Jesse. And that was like the last layer for me. That was probably one of the most challenging pieces because I was making all this like development um in myself and in my character in opening my heart, getting out of my head, uh being more kind, like all these things that I was really working on. And honestly, ice baths and saunas and breath work, I mainly found them because I was really fishing on how to meditate because every personal development book that I read, all of these successful people were talking about meditation. And every time I tried meditating, I just didn't get anywhere. I didn't feel the benefits. I didn't have the aha moments that they were referring to in these books. So, I would just try and I would try different ones. And really I just found myself like thinking about what I needed to do like after the meditation or what I should have been doing earlier. And so I had a really hard time cultivating this practice of being more present. And ice baths was like a real shift for me because my very first ice bath that I did kind of the Wimhof style which is like ice all the way to your neck. And I naturally just closed my eyes because I didn't really know how to navigate that experience. I wasn't quite trained yet. And naturally my breathing rate changed
And naturally my breathing rate changed right to adjust to that cold water. And I found myself in a very deep, quiet, transformative meditation. And I'm like, this is the fastest way to that deep meditation that I have found to date. And so essentially, I've been using ice baths. Yeah, it's recovery tool and immune system builder and all the things that come along with it, but mainly I've been using it for my mind to get into a meditative state. And really, when I'm in that ice bath, I just recite prayers and mantras for two or three minutes that I'm in there. And that's been like the most powerful driver of, you know, me essentially implementing a meditation practice. And so that's what I teach. you know, everybody that comes in optimize trying out their first ice bath, you know, they're just trying to power through it and grit through it. I'm like, "No. It's actually the opposite." Like, I'm going to teach you how to meditate in this cold water. And regardless of what religion you are, whether you want to use affirmations or prayers, like, I want you to recite them in your mind and keep your eyes closed and you're just going to get into the present moment. And that's why the time just goes by so fast when you get into that mode. Otherwise, you're like in panic mode staring at the clock, you know, wondering when you can get out. And so really I'm just trying to uh work on people's mindset. So it's like a real mind tool. And saunas were the same thing for me when I was depressed and anxious and really having a hard time in life. I found solitude in the sauna because I didn't have my phone. I was literally just me and my thoughts, you know, being by myself for 20 minutes without any distractions. And I felt like, wow, what a like peaceful experience this is without any distractions. And so really there was just like me working on my mind. And then of course all of the wonderful benefits that you get from the heat or from the cold in that scenario. Yeah. Nothing quite get you get gets you nothing quite gets you present as fast as a nice cold ice bath. You know, that'll get you present real quick,
that'll get you present real quick, right? Yeah. like your ability to think about later or yesterday just kind of goes away and you're very right here right now. And then I started to notice a trend. I mean anxiety is like rampant in our society, right? A lot of people identify with having anxious you know thoughts and I started seeing people come in and they were saying like I really struggle with anxiety um you know telling me their history of how it's essentially you know uh set them back in many areas of their life and I was worried about them because I'm like they're going to have a really hard time with this ice bath. They're already anxious and of course they were anxious before they were getting in but they were having the best results. they were coming out of the ice bath like or they were actually uh powering through or meditating through the ice bath in like the best way and they they would come out and say, "Oh my god, I can't remember the last time like I felt present." And I knew that there was something there. I said, "Okay, I get it." You know, it's essentially forcing them into that present moment and they have a hard time getting there on their own through their own, you know, rituals, routines, and habits. So, and no matter how many times you do an ice bath, obviously you get a little acclimated to it, but I just know from my experience of routinely going to optimize between 2021 to 2023, you know, every single time I'm sitting there almost talking myself out of not doing it, but then choosing to do it anyways. And like just the choice of doing something hard, doing something that's painful, that not all pain is bad. And especially when you can put yourself in a situation where you can feel a little discomfort, a little bit of pain and know that it's good for you and overcome that mentally, then all of a sudden, especially when you get back to your life as an entrepreneur, you know, the the email that you need to write that you, you know, don't really want to write, all of the resistance to a lot of the the tasks throughout your day seem way less significant because you just chose to do something way harder and way more painful than things that often times um
painful than things that often times um you hesitate, delay, or self-sabotage. And so, um, yes, there's tons of scientifically proven benefits that you're more wellversed on than I am, but just from the mental clarity from just doing choosing to do something hard, uh, that just has a lot of psychological benefits that can help you grow your business faster, help you be more present as a spouse, you know, and just show up more powerfully um, every single day. you know, that first minute that you're in the ice bath, the first 30 seconds for sure, you know, it is not fun. But, you know, the hour afterwards, uh, you know, is an amazing experience. So, here's the thing. This podcast is new, but I've actually spent the last 15 years behind the scenes building some of your favorite thought leaders and personal brands. If you actually want people to remember you and what you do, check out personalbrand. com. Links in the description. All right, let's keep rolling. And that was life for many years. We just live so comfortably now. Like we don't even know what it's like. Our grandparents didn't have the opportunities that we do today. I mean, you know, look at showers. I mean, we go and we take a shower and we don't even think twice about turning the water to warm and taking a hot shower and taking a long shower and having, you know, uh, heating and air conditioning in all of our homes and heating and air conditioning in all of our cars. having the ability to access information at any moment at any time, right? None of that was even possible 100 years ago, maybe even less, right? Yeah. I mean, the hot water heaters didn't start getting like massly adopted in the United States until probably like the 19 late 40s, 50s, if that. Yeah. So, you know, these are all comforts that we take for granted. And our grandparents and great-grandparents, depending how old you are, really didn't have these options. And so the body is just built for work, you know. We we wake up, the sky is blue, we put our pants on, we get busy, and we go out
pants on, we get busy, and we go out there and we we do our physical labor. And then we come back and we settle down. We have dinner with the family, you know, we we stare at fires or candles, we read books, we converse, our body settles down, our nervous system settles down, and then we go to bed and we do it all over again. And so that's kind of been our history for a really long time. And if you go back even further, then it's like more, you know, hunting, right? So sometimes you go out there and you hunt and you find something to kill and you bring it back and requires a lot of preparation. We don't have any of that preparation anymore. We take some burgers out of the package and we throw them on the grill. Not even that. You just door dash it, right? You could door dash it now, right? I know. It's crazy. And so there's just no effort into really anything that we do anymore. And so we kind of we take on a lot of tasks and stuff like that because we're just not present in like preparing that meal or actually going out there to find food. And you know fasting right now is super trendy and it's powerful. It's important. I love fasting because it's been around. It's has stood the test of time you know and there's a reason why it's in religious texts and whatnot too. But in reality, people were forced to to fast because there was no option. Yeah. Food wasn't available at the grocery store on the corner. Right. Exactly. So, I think we're just out of harmony with how the body is built and um you know, all of these things that we've been talking about, the sauna, the cold plunge, you know, physical fitness, they're all just stressors. You know, they give your body a dose of stress. And some people are living life without that type of physical stress at all. You know, the only stress that they're, you know, consuming is, you know, the chronic stress, right? The anxiety, that thinking stress, those types of things, emotional stress. In reality, like we actually need more stress. You know, most people are saying, "Oh, we need less stress in our lives." I'm like, "Uh, I think we actually need more stress because our bodies don't know how to adapt and react in a healthy way
to adapt and react in a healthy way anymore." And so essentially at Optimize, we're giving people a small dose of environmental stressors through heat, through water, right? And that helps to train our nervous system on how to recognize what's the difference between stress and actual danger. You know, there's a big difference there, right? And so a lot of these tools I learned in the military uh because you have to be prepared for stress and you can't operate doing helicopter search and rescue if you're not able to um work under pressure or work under stress, right? And so one of the tools and what they were always trying to weed out, right? When you look at Buds and you look at SEAL training, they're trying to weed out, yeah, physically fit, you have to be physically fit to do the job, but they're really trying to weed out people who don't have the mental capacity on how to operate at a high level under stress. And so when I left the military, I felt like I had an advantage, you know, because I went through really unique training that you're just not going to get at the university or really any courses. And so I felt like I had a unique advantage. And so part of like what I teach today and really passionate about is how can you train, you know, people on how to adapt and react to stress in a healthy way. And then how does that impact the everyday stuff for life? Whether it's like responding to that email that you know maybe you're a little bit triggered about or um trying to solve problems, you know, in your household when you know you're dealing with financial stress or a loss of a family member. You know, some people just break down and they lose it and they, you know, disconnect for months at a time and it's like not the best way to handle stress. You know, I had a woman one time, we worked together in the Navy and we lost uh a very expensive piece of equipment on one of our flights, like a million-dollar piece of equipment, like super expensive. And so, we knew like we're going to be in trouble when we get back because, you know, they're going to
back because, you know, they're going to try to figure out what mistakes were made as to why uh we lost. It was called a sonar dome. It's actually how we hunt submarines. And we can chat about that later. And um in the training, she like literally after we lost the sonar dome, she like crawled up in a ball and started crying like in the helicopter. And immediately when we landed and we went through this evaluation of what happened, they cut her and they said, "We'll never let her fly again." Wow. You know, not because she made a mistake and we lost the expensive piece of equipment. It's how she handled the stress. And if that was a person that was in the water that we had to rescue, we can't even risk the fact that you might handle that situation that way. So, wow. Yeah. I'd love to uh learn more about your experience in the military. I think you did a great job of communicating how that experience has been uh a a positive impact on entrepreneurship of being able to handle stress. Well, what about jumping out of helicopters into the ocean is actually detrimental to what it takes to be an entrepreneur? Just like many humans, like we're all learning how to like keep up with the pace of life right now. I think our pace of life is really high. And I noticed that with just everyday people that I talk with. You know, we're we're just like overstimulated. It's too much communication. You know, when I was a teenager, we had pagers. And there was a part of my teenage years that I didn't even have a pager. And so when I left the house, like I was gone. And when I got home, then I'm available. You know, it's not like you can reach me or have a long conversation with me while I was out and about. I was present with whatever I was doing. I wasn't on my phone. I wasn't scrolling. I wasn't consuming information or talking to other people that was getting in my way of being present with the people that I was with. And so like that's what really what we're missing. And when I would go home, I would check the answering machine and you know, if there was somebody was trying to reach me, you just give them a call back tomorrow. Well, everybody wants like an instant response now. You know, they want like a text back immediately. They want you to answer their call. You know,
want you to answer their call. You know, they'll try to get you on a direct message and a text and a phone call. Like we connected to so many different people back in the day. Like how many people were you really connected with? People who you could remember their phone number, you know? So like our tribe was much smaller. Our tribe is like really large now. And I think that's having a negative impact on us for sure. I think that's one of the main drivers because when you get into the world of like understanding the nervous system, right, you have the autonomic nervous system and it could either be uh dominant in the sympathetic tone which is often known as fight or flight or parasympathetic, right? Which is the rest, relax, digest, um all of that mode. And so I think a lot of us are walking around in a high sympathetic tone dominance. And that's why people are a little bit reactive and impulsive because that's actually necessary for being in that stage of the nervous system, you know, that uh switch because if you're out there hunting and you have to be on alert and there is actual danger, then it's important to be impulsive and to to be able to get out of something, you know, quickly. But when you're just trying to have a normal conversation with somebody and like learn more about them, like impulsive behavior is actually very off-putting, you know, and actually will like break your communication or hinder your relationships and communication skills. So ultimately, I think our the pace of our world is really fast as a human species. We're learning how to adapt to this. There's no playbook. There's no rules. It's not like we were like prepared for this in any way. The technology is just rolling out. And even with AI, right, everyone's super excited about it. And so you could do a lot more faster, right? Now you can have a whole email written for you in 10 seconds where traditionally if you were writing, you know, an intro email, like you would really take your time and figure out what you want to say and all that kind of stuff. So now that we have these tools that speed things up, we just feel like, okay, we just need to do more. That just gives us the opportunity to do
That just gives us the opportunity to do more. And so we're just doing more, And in a way, we're losing ourselves. But in a way, we're also like damaging our our health mentally, for sure. And when you damage your health mentally, that's going to show up as a physical issue at some point. Yeah. And so I think that's the world that we're living in. But going back to the Navy question, you know, the Navy is uh high sympathetic dominance. You know, you're in go go mode, you are always alert, always ready. You have to be prepared because even when you're preparing for the mission and the flight, like you want to be sharp, you want to know what you're talking about, you're going to have to brief the pilots on, you know, what your role is going to be in that mission. um being squared away is like ranked really high like in how we communicate with each other in the military. So doesn't matter how fit you are or anything like that. I mean there's an element of that of course but you're past that phase like you've already proven that you're physically fit enough to do the job. Now it gets into like how sharp are you? How smart are you? How capable are you? And so everyone actually is trying to be as capable as possible so that they are seen in a positive light by their superiors andor by their peers. And so that also adds an element of like emotional and mental stress, right? Of just always trying to be as squared away as possible as as sharp as possible. So I think uh in the nature of the type of flying you know we would fly helicopters at 150 ft in the desert over the ocean there's storms there's hazards there's fog there's power lines there's trees then we would do lowflight flying sounds a lot like entrepreneurship all the fog and the hazards and everything exactly and and then we would fly even lower we would do these flights where we would learn how to fly nap of the earth flying you flying at you know 50 ft off the ground and so there's hazards. So,
the ground and so there's hazards. So, you're always in this high alert mode and that high alert mode is necessary for the job. It's actually what you need to be in to do that job, but we're not necessarily taught the skills of how to navigate out of that when the flight is over. And so, I always had a hard time at the end of my night flights because we would also wear night vision goggles. So, when you wear night vision goggles, the amount of light that you can see is really based on the moon. So, if there's a a high moon and there's a lot of moonlight, then you're going to have a much better view. If it's low moon, then it's going to be a lot darker and there's a lot of strain on your eyes. And I always remember coming back from those flights. One, exhausted, of course. Two, like a lot of strain on your eyes. And three, my brain waves were so elevated in those high beta brain wave states that Joe Despensza talks about quite often that I had a really hard time slowing my brain waves down so I can get into that more alpha restorative um you know mode of thinking. And so my sleep was was wrecked and I had a lot of problems with insomnia over the years and those types of things. And so after years and years of being in that high sympathetic tone dominance, now you start to reap the problems of the physical body. Too much cortisol, too much adrenaline. Um you start getting breakdown, you start finding aches and pains in the body. And you know, everyone always talks about aches and pains. Oh, I bumped my knee three years ago and now it's back. But you know when you really dive into the mind body world a lot of our pain is actually uh rooted in our mind and our emotions that you know traditional medicine doesn't um it's not part of their scope. You know they don't treat it like that. They treat your body as something physical this needs to be corrected or this medicine will you know help to correct that and just cover it up. Not not even like really address it. Right. Root cause. They don't get to the root cause. One one of the things I'm so grateful is becoming a mainstream topic in entrepreneurship that you have a lot
in entrepreneurship that you have a lot of expertise in and a lot of the modalities that you help facilitate play a critical role in is just like nervous system regulation. Right. I imagine being in the military, whichever branch of military anyone's in listening, but specifically in the Navy, jumping out of uh helicopters into the ocean and doing uh you know, high um intensity um life-threatening activities, right? Uh it's naturally has a tendency to probably hardwire someone into fight or flight. Oh, yeah. Um, I know for me, not being in the military, but just really struggling as an entrepreneur, um, starting my business in 2010 at the bottom of the recession, starting a marketing company in 2010, 2011, 2013 when no one spending any money on marketing was a deeply stressful and season of my life that uh, put my nervous system in into fight or flight. And it took me a long time to figure out that was a problem. definitely had a negative impact in my energy levels, my sleep, my uh ability to think clearly, my relationships, all these different types of things. So, let's let's speak a little bit to like nervous system regulation. And I imagine that you have a a story to tell of what served you in the military. Um, you know, there's probably some things that you had to unwind there. I know that, you know, an injury played a key role into even um optimize becoming a thing. So yeah, tell us a little bit more about that healing path and and how that relates to uh you know nervous system regulation being a critical aspect of entrepreneurship because although we're not jumping out of helicopters, we still have high stakes experiences where we're pitching to investors. We have a really big client that we really want to bring on and have them say yes to our offer and that can really change the trajectory of our entire business. And that's that's a moment that is is very impactful for an entrepreneur. So yeah, like how how important is nervous system regulation? And then you know obviously you have the military experience and then even uh the corporate experience and your healing journey to uh speak to
and your healing journey to uh speak to probably a lot of that. Yeah, I think it's everything. It's like the most important thing actually. And uh like we mentioned earlier there's just no training for this in the western model like in eastern philosophy uh they obviously have a different fundamentals of like teaching and way of life and pace of life than we do in the west. West is, you know, all science and it's all based on productivity and success and all those types of things, you know, and that's kind of how we rank each other, right, in our society. But nervous system regulation is really important and and you know, every if you think about everything is energy first, right? So everything is energy and so your body is electric. We're electrical beings. You know, everything is moving. you know, we're full of molecules and atoms and you know, essentially we're this like vibrating meat suit, you know, and but before it's um you know, physics comes before the physical, right? And becomes before the chemistry and the biology. So everything is energy first. So really it's like thought mind is the builder you know and the thought is then impacting the nervous system and then the the nervous system is like directing energy to you know the cells and the hormones and all these other chemical cocktails that we have in our body. So if you don't really get that under control then it's really hard to get your health under control. And that's why I like, you know, the work that Joe Despensz is doing because he's like like really focused on that element of healing versus just like the physical stuff, the gadgets, you know, or the the new medicine or the new peptide or something like that. And so nervous system regulation is really important. I think the fundamentals is just like teaching people about you know what is the nervous system and what are the modes of it and you know what is um you know what are the types of activities or the things that your body's going to do when you're in fight or flight. You know the simple thing when you're in fight or flight blood flows to the extremities. Well of course right blood carries
Well of course right blood carries oxygen red blood cells and oxygen is fuel for all of our cells you know. So when you get into the world of longevity, we're always talking about like what is the the key? What is the secret to life and good health? Well, it's mitochondrial health. Keep your mitochondria healthy, then essentially will be healthy and free of disease and all that kind of stuff. Every cell in the body has its own job. And in order for it to do its job effectively and efficiently, it needs energy. And so the mitochondria inside the cell are constantly producing energy for that cell. And then that cell has a job to do. And so if you want all your cells, you know, humming and like working at a high efficient rate, like you want the mitochondria to be healthy. And so mitochondria interesting because it's like bacteria that produce, you know, energy and they do that uh by converting, you know, oxygen and nutrients into ATP and uh through a process called the KB cycle. And so everything is energy first. And so when you get into the world of like entrepreneurship and stress and all those types of things, you have to learn how to like utilize the network of the nervous system for the appropriate time. There are appropriate times where being more sympathetic dominant to get things done quickly and maybe efficiently or you know in a hurry and in that sense is probably necessary. But most things we don't necessarily have to operate that way. And you know, you know how it feels when you talk to somebody that's really anxious and they're like thinking three steps ahead all the time. And so you can tell like they're not present with you. And that tends to not strengthen your relationship with them. You know, it's more like, you know, it kind of like if anything like deters you away from that person or somebody's constantly operating in that frequency. And so for the world of entrepreneurship,
the world of entrepreneurship, you know, you could just get into a cycle where like you're just like turning people off all the time because of your behavior and, you know, like your demands and your, you know, your pace and and all of that kind of stuff. So I I just think it's important to really understand the nervous system in general like what is parasympathetic what is sympathetic tone you know uh understanding the basics of like how oxygen delivery is extremely important you know for the body. So good blood flow and circulation being like a really important critical piece of overall health that's often not talked about. You only talk about it when it's like problematic and you have an issue. You know, sometimes you see people like older folks with like the really swollen legs, you know, and you can obviously tell that there's a circulatory lymphatic problem there, you know, but there was probably many signs leading up to that before they got to that point. Probably not enough movement, not enough walking, sedentary type lifestyle tends to cause that stuff. You know, every great teacher will will tell you, you know, our power is in the present moment. So, how can we cultivate a practice of being more present? through meditation, through mindfulness, through breathing exercises, all of those types of things. And I think more entrepreneurs are interested in that because they see their tendencies and of course everyone's like self diagnosing or being diagnosed by somebody. Oh, I have ADHD and that's just the way I'm built and that's like the way I was delivered into this world. And it's like, no, those are just patterns, you know, that were developed, you know, over time uh based on behavior, right? And so I feel like you can really change many elements and aspects of your life. You know, I grew up in the world of like, oh, your grandmother was this way and, you know, genetically, you know, you're just going to have like I I hated that story. Yeah. I hated that story of like genetics. You know, you can't Yeah. You don't have any control. Just part of your DNA. Oh, she had this mental health thing, so it's natural that you have that. And what we've learned from, you
that. And what we've learned from, you know, Dr. Bruce Lipton and and his um research on epigenetics that really our environment is controlling everything. And what is our environment based on? Our perception, how we perceive our surroundings is controlling everything. So it's starting off with perception and then that's signaling the nervous system, right? Okay. And then the nervous system is signaling, you know, everything else, the hormone control and all that kind of stuff on whether to release adrenaline or cortisol or whatnot. But it's all starting based on our perception. And you know, the most simple example of that, it's like me and you could be on a plane sitting next to each other. You know, let's just say we're traveling to Europe and I'm petrified of flying. And I don't fly very often, but for whatever reason, I get to Europe. Maybe there's a family member that's ill or something like that. And so before takeoff, I'm going to be uh have a higher heart rate than you. I'm going to have sweaty palms. I'm going to feel anxious. I'm going to feel unsettled. And you could be like calm and relaxed. And you do this all the time. You travel for work. And you might even be taking a nap at takeoff. Yeah. And so we're in the exact same scenario going to the same airport having a completely different experience all based on our perception which is sending information and signals to the rest of our body. Um and if you just look at society we're just all walking around with different perceptions and that's controlling heart rate and uh cortisol and adrenals and all the other things. So, we got to get that right first. Like, that's the root. The root is the perception and the mental, the emotional element of everything. And that's where I see uh humanity going. I see like, yeah, there's going to be way more information on biohacks and new stuff and new gear and peptides are really cool, you know.
and peptides are really cool, you know. Um, but I think really where we're going to find our power as a human race is really understanding the power of the mind and how our perception is really impacting everything. And so that gets you really into the world of spirituality now because now it really starts tapping into surrender and faith and you know those types of things and I think that's also like really missing in our society as well. Yeah, for sure. One of the big themes of of this podcast is obviously leading with the financial frame of the conversation, but talking about spirituality and health and wellness and mindset and all these different components because in order to be an effective entrepreneur, especially where things are going um into the future, the younger generation that's coming up like they're old souls, they're highly high discernment. They can recognize an AI video that I can't even recognize anymore, you know. And so, uh, you know, embodying your message, embodying your leadership, uh, being a full representation of of your message, the the impact, the change that you want to have in the world is is critically important. And you can't do that with a disregulated nervous system, right? And we create messes. I mean, think about it. Like don't you want to move through life where things are happening for you and people coming into your life that are like you know serving you in a good way versus like inviting people into your life that are creating roadblocks and havocs and and trouble and obst unnecessary obstacles. Yeah. And we create so many unnecessary obstacles just in um you know how we navigate the world mentally and emotionally. And so we're always manifesting all the time whether we are you know aware of it or not. And so that awareness is just so important. So as a human species, the more aware we could become and then when you talk about business and entrepreneurship and at the end of the day like what is business and entrepreneurship like you're creating a service, right? And so yeah, the currency of that is is money and you
currency of that is is money and you want to see your bank account go up, but how is that service and authenticity and my connection to what I'm sharing impacting others? And it's like man if you are like impacting other people's lives in a positive way and you are uh helping them with tools to better their life and create less friction and feel better mentally, emotionally, spiritually all those types of thing or have some sort of service that helps them in that It could be a financial tool that really helps them like you know that is a different kind of energy than like a a fear you know energy or even like leading with what's in it for me or what what how much money can I make like when you lead with service you have you're being fueled by fulfillment yes and it doesn't even feel like work there's all this um you know talk out there about you know you have to monetize your passion and do what you love like I think to some extent yes like you you need to have a a lane where um you you are doing something that you actually enjoy and doesn't feel like you're you know suffering. There's nothing enlightened about suffering to build a business or sacrificing yourself to build a business and at the same time you can do something that obviously has a financial aspect to it. Like yes, you're building a business. A business isn't a service rendering a service or selling a product for a profit. But when you do it from a place of fulfillment and where the bottom line isn't the main thing that you're optimizing for, you have staying power, you have fulfillment, you're being fueled by something deeper than your own benefit and your own gain. And often times I see that's where a lot of entrepreneurs get hung up is like they're only in it for the money. And they're hustling and they're grind status. Yeah. and the status and and the only way to get more is to hustle harder and hustle more and at the end of the day they burn out and they lose all their money and they waste 10 years of their life and burn through relationships and are in a worse off place than they were before. And so I just want to commend you for, you know, really fully embodying that of like bringing a vision to life, uh, that has a deep impact in
to life, uh, that has a deep impact in our local community and is that representation of service and and leading with something that you're deeply passionate about that uh that is also deeply fulfilling with all the stories that you get to tell. when when you had the idea to start cultivating uh community and start charging money for it, how long did it take you to hit your first six figures in a year and then your first six figure month? We didn't even know if this concept would work, you know, because it really was nothing like it. I mean, they have bathous throughout the country, but it really wasn't a big part of American culture. If you go to Europe, you'll see bath houses where they'll have like like Germany, um, Scandinavia, Czech Republic, uh, Korea, they essentially have kind of kept that old medicine alive. And so it's common for people to do sauna and cold water and hot tubs and those types of things, massage, you know, um, in their culture. And so I've been to those types of bath houses and I always felt amazing when I left. I'm like, "Oh my god, it's incredible." Like, I think we just spend so much time in our brains and our mind that part of being an entrepreneur or busy person is really carving out time to get out of your head and back into your body. That's why, you know, you'll hear people give advice like, "Hey, if you've been grinding on the computer for four hours straight, like put the computer on sleep and like go for a walk, you know, go outside, get some exercise, get some sunlight, you know, like get back into your body, you know, take a break from like consuming information, get out of the logical, analytical thinking mind for a bit." And so that's like really important, I think, for all of us, whether you're entrepreneur or not, just in the the lifestyle that we live today, uh, because of the gadgets, right? just so much information. Yeah. Screens everywhere, right? And so when we started Optimize, like we didn't quite know what would be the modalities that people were interested in. Uh the foundation of it was like cold water cuz we were already teaching Wimhof, so that was obvious.
teaching Wimhof, so that was obvious. And then hot water. We knew, you know, the contrast therapy is old and you know, ineffective. And and then sauna was obviously really simple and easy because it's old and effective. And then later on some of these like uh longer term studies came out to really show how effective it is which is cool but I already knew like saunas were good for you know I didn't need science to catch up. Science is catching up on all of these things. You know, they're catching up on all of it. You know, even breathing exercises, you know, they're like looking at, you know, Wimhof was revolutionary in a way because he brought like these simple tools to to science, right? And they they studied them and they have um you know, laboratory results of what's happening in the blood and CT scans and MRI scans and all that kind of stuff, which is cool. So, we didn't even know what was going to work. We just knew that we had this community that was hungry for something and we knew that there was a lot of people struggling in our society with common issues. Sleep, chronic stress, anxiety, depression, pain, those types of fatigue, energy. Everybody's grabbing. I mean, look at the energy drink business. It's huge. Y I mean, look at Red Bull. I mean, they're giants. Why are they so popular? Because everyone is starving for more energy. And what creates energy in your body? Mitochondria, you know. And so everybody is like trying to get more energy during the day and trying to find a supplement, a stack, a medication to wind down where all of it could be solved through our patterns, rituals, and behaviors. But you know, we live a busy lifestyle. We don't have time to change that. So we need something quick. So eventually uh we we went with compression therapy, sauna, cold tub, hot tub and then we had a device called the newcome which was a restorative sleep device that was patented and we brought that in very early on and then eventually we got the
early on and then eventually we got the red lights in u shortly after cuz I started researching the positive effects of light and the negative effects of light too, you know, which I think most people are not uh educated on and the negative effects of light and how that's like actually messing with their kitchen lights, screens before bed, all that kind of stuff. And so we started that first location in Arcadia. And we didn't quite know how big it should be, you know? We just were shopping for a location. We found that there was a location in a good part of town that was also in the same neighborhood where Jesse lived cuz he lived right around the block. And that's where we got started. And so shortly after we realized, damn, we need more space, you know, we need like uh more bathrooms, you know, more showers, like laundry service type stuff. Like, you know, we made all those mistakes early on where to put drains, you know, protocols. Uh but from the staff perspective, uh we made a lot of good decisions right away because we were attracting people that were also really passionate about helping others and they were already um doing this in some way, shape or form. A lot of them were like practitioners in their own way, whether they were like Reiki or they were teaching meditation, yoga, breath work. So we were attracting uh that that crowd which was awesome. But that crowd also you got to work with them because you got to teach them business, you know. Mhm. the healing arts crowd, you know, sometimes they have like a negative uh perception on money and sales and those types of things. So, really we've spent a lot of energy on just creating like good balance in that area. Um, and we had success right off the bat. And I knew we were having success because I started to see where people were driving from, you know, and in the beginning it's like a little messy, right? because you front all this money for the construction to open up the place, the working capital. Uh we didn't do much paid marketing back then. It was mainly
paid marketing back then. It was mainly just um us sharing on free platforms like Instagram and Facebook at the time. Yeah. Uh so we didn't have like marketing budget and all that kind of stuff. We we could have done a better job there of course and and grown a lot faster actually. But and even just all the equipment in the facility like one you have to you know do some things to build out the place so that it's uh you know it flows. Yeah. It flows and then obviously the equipment's expensive. So I mean you have and the maintenance. Yeah. Like you never you don't quite know what the maintenance requirement is going to be until you have like hundreds of people like using the the equipment every single day and you know the amount of times that you have to treat and change the waters and the uh pounding that the saunas get from you know people sweating and the walking in and out and all that kind of stuff even with the compression boots the zippers breaking. So, we had no pulse on like what the maintenance was going to be like and what those additional costs would be like, but we were just getting so many people in the door and uh people were were finding us because there was this like revolution and people trying out cold plunging. And then ultimately I started to see how far people were driving to get here because there was no other options. And I had a guy that would come seven days a week from east east Mesa like Apache Junction like out there and you know he was doing it and he loved it and he didn't care about the drive and we had people coming from all over the valley and so immediately we knew at some point we're like okay we're going to have to build other centers and try to get into those areas that can service some of these other communities. And obviously with the next one that we built, we built it bigger. We put some new therapies in there. We upgraded like having multiple bathrooms, shower inside, all that kind of stuff. And so with each and every center that we built, we just made improvements. And we've like bootstrapped this whole thing. You know, we didn't have like a big investor to come and, you know,
big investor to come and, you know, throw half a million dollars at us, you know. Uh we just bootstrapped it oursself, you know, using our own personal money, taking out loans, uh using credit cards, um finding unique ways to cut costs, doing trades, like really just really ground up operation. And we have always been really um smart about our buildouts, you know, because at the end of the day when you're building a new center, like you want to build it super dope and there's like a lot of cool things that you can do and you can hire um interior designers that would give you great advice and but like we've done we did some consulting with them and they're like, "Oh, you guys should buy these chairs and like each chair was like three grand." I'm like, "Oh, yeah, great. Six grand for two chairs." Like, you know, not in our budget, right. you know, so we we had to figure out a lot of stuff on our own. Yeah. And uh that was and there's that delicate balance between um creating an environment that's an experience, but then also sinking so much cost into something that really won't move the needle, but yeah, okay, great. That marble wall from Tibet would be awesome to have in here or whatever, but is that really going to be the deciding factor? And so, yeah, there's a lot of decisions like that that especially in a a brick and mortar buildout, like tough decisions need to be made. Oh, yeah. Like that that cross line between the vision that you want to create and then the actual practical nature of the investment. So, yeah. And with the money that you have coming in, like how to allocate that, you know, where where do you put it into new equipment, you know, do you put it into uh operation costs and staff? Do you put it into marketing? And you know how the world of marketing is, man. We've gone through so many marketing people over the years. And you know, they overpromise and underdel. You know, it's just really common. Yeah. And you know, it's really hard to find like a marketing group that's like we will deliver you like good clients, you
will deliver you like good clients, you know. Yeah. Everyone says that in their brief, you know, and then you get into the nitty-gritty. And so we've had to like, you know, uh move around a lot and try different things and um try to use organic reach to really help us. And that's why we do so many events. Y the events of just like being top of mind, you know, because there's other recovery centers that essentially mimicked what we've done since we built it. Uh which is interesting and cool all in the same. And you know, our goal was to always be top of mind when you're talking about this industry. And I think we've done a good job uh of that in this market for sure. Yeah, absolutely. So much of what we coach our clients on is often times there's that gap between where we're at in our business and where we want to be. And we think that that gap can only be closed by things outside of our current skill set like tech or like marketing or like running ads, you know, things that maybe you weren't doing in the beginning to get started. Right. But what I always advise people on is there's still so much juice left to squeeze out of your strengths and what you're uniquely good at. And Optimize started out of the community that you created. And that's one of the things that you've done such a good job of is cultivating, curating, and continually developing community. And so that is your competitive advantage in the marketplace. There are other um you know competitors out there that maybe objectively have slightly better equipment or spent more money on their buildout, but they don't have the community that you have. And so that really is your differentiating factor feeling. Yeah. And and just like the the vibe of like be belonging to something that's a little bit bigger than yourself like you were talking about before how important even just social interaction is to as humans and you know we're working from home in these virtual environments on Zoom calls and like it's it's almost like the illusion of human interaction but uh that that community aspect of things and you know bringing people together and doing big events and that that is yeah it's an illusion like you mentioned. Yeah. I think people are like so connected but they actually feel so
so connected but they actually feel so lonely inside. Mhm. You know, and so I always was I was searching for community, too. And I could never find it. And you know, everyone was like, "Go take yoga classes, you'll find community." And every yoga studio I went to, I couldn't find that community. People would line up in the main room when you got there. No one would talk to each other. They would all scurry into the room when the instructor was done teaching that last class. Everyone would put their yoga mat down. You would go through this yoga flow and then everyone would just like leave the room and disappear. And I'm like, "No one talks to each other. No one interacts. There's actually no community here." But they always like said, "Oh, we're a community center." And so that was one thing I wanted to fix. And that's why I tried to make Optimize as social as possible. I wanted it to be yeah, health, wellness, biohacking type of environment, but mainly I wanted it to be a social outlet where people can authentically like meet, connect. And since we've opened Optimize in 2019, we've already had, I think, four, maybe five marriages that came out of there. Wow. We have one baby that came out of there. There's an optimized baby. We have tons of like deep friendships, like real friendships, not just acquaintances, like people who like really closely connected. We've had tons of business relationships come out of there where people have met and have like gained more business because of their connections or started a business with somebody else. And so like that to me is like okay that's real community you know that's where you're going to meet people that are going to uh have a positive impact in your life in some way shape or or how. Yeah. So I mean today Optimize there's four locations here in the valley going to optimize uh back when Arcadia was the only location and shortly after that the Tempe location opened up and now you know expanded to two more locations North Scottsdale and kind of central Scottsdale right how long did it take to to really dial in those different components to hit your first six figures in a year and then accelerate to your first six figures in a month.
figures in a month. Yeah I mean things have just progressively gotten harder actually. You know when you expand things get harder. You know, when you have one center, you're just focusing on one center, one set of equipment, you know, one uh set of bills, right? And all that kind of stuff. One schedule of staff. Yeah. It gets way more complex when you start adding multiple centers. So, that's the phase that we're in now, right? We're in that complex phase of like how to streamline things and organize things and uh develop leaders, right? That's a big thing. Like, we're in the people business. Like, we're only as good as our people. And that's one of our biggest differentiators because I've been to other recovery, wellness, other places and they usually have somebody up front that's just like doesn't know what they're talking about, you know, like they'll check in and they'll, you know, get you squared away if you need a membership, but like they don't really understand um how the equipment works or, you know, the protocols and all that kind of stuff. So, we always wanted to continue to improve that. And then uh leadership development, right? You know, getting uh people who started with the company and developed them as a leader on how to be responsible for other people. And I did a lot of that in the military. I did a lot of that in the corporate world, but this was the first time I have ever had to do it with the healing arts community. And you know, and it was challenging. You know, I had to um help them to position their mind uh in different ways and and see things from a different lens. Uh, but we had a lot of success really early on. Uh, we didn't have a ton of debt, which was great, you know, uh, you know, we had equipment loans and whatnot. We had obviously construction loans. Uh, but because we had so many people coming in the door and, uh, you know, our price point and all that kind of stuff, people, it was like a no-brainer for people to to be part of the community. We had early success, which is why we, you know, built that second one so fast. And remember we built a second one
And remember we built a second one during co and so you know within a year we were already in a position where we can grow right and co came and that was a shock wave and that was like whoa like we might lose the entire business you know in this stage like how long is this going to go on for like no one knew you know and so we took some risks in 2021 while everyone else was like hunkering down and like kind of being more in a like fear state of like let's see what happens. I'm not going to make any moves. We made the decision to go shopping and looking for rental spaces. And what we found was like we can make really good deals because um these um strip malls and you know they they need people to pay rent, right? Yeah. And a lot and the work from home economy everyone was working from home. There lots of office and retail spaces that were vacant from businesses that went out of business during 2020. And so, but you saw opportunity when everyone else didn't, right? And the tenants, right, a lot of those tenants that they had weren't paying their rent because they weren't getting any customers because they couldn't be open for whatever reason. And so these uh these big um shopping centers were struggling. And so we had a a lot more uh we just had an advantage going into those negotiations to talk about uh rent and you know what we want and um you know when you build out new sites there's also the the TI right tenant improvements which is a big part of the negotiation right so we felt like we had a really good advantage there and so we grew in a time where most people were like hunkering down and so that really helped us out and then because we built such a nice name for ourselves locally and people kind of respected the brand and knew who we were and like knew Jesse and I's story. Then we started like it changed for us like where we weren't looking for properties now. People were
looking for properties now. People were actually reaching out to us and saying we have a property that we're building here and we love like your clientele and we like your style of business and we want to actually put you in our center. And so that's how we got the third one in North Phoenix. We were invited on that project and we you know with the if we had the capital we probably could have done five more of those because we were getting so many invitations from everywhere but we also knew like like as fast as we want to grow and it feels good to say like oh we got x amount of centers and all that kind of stuff if we don't have the framework I think people can grow too fast and it could be really problematic. So you know we pumped the brakes. We decided to franchise the model actually and we spent investment money to become a franchise and basically our thought process was you know if there's somebody who is in a similar situation to us and they're interested in building this type of business and working in this sort of environment. Well, why don't we partner with them and build other optimizers in other places versus like creating competition? Because we're getting a lot of people that were coming in and taking notes of what kind of cold tub do you have, what kind of sauna do you have, what kind of floors do you have, and literally just like copying the product, you know, and so, you know, that was challenging for us to go through something that we didn't even think about was going to happen, but it happened relatively quickly. I mean, I went through a similar experience in our software company. Like literally someone signed up for a software and completely created a copycat, try to rip us off, try to give it away for free or and charge a percentage. Like that's a for me it was kind of a humbling experience. I mean not even humbling but just like like what the heck like there's people out there that do that type of a thing like like what was that experience for you when you saw people coming and like objectively kind of taking note looking around of of all the equipment. We had to train our team because we had to like actually start to like fish out like who was calling and inquiring and didn't have good intentions and who was actually inquiring because they were generally curious about trying the place
generally curious about trying the place out. Yeah. You know, so we had actually have huddles and meetings with the team of like somebody comes in and they're asking these types of questions like you need to get them in touch with, you know, the owners, you know, because they're actually fishing. They're not here for the right reasons, right? So like you go through your ups and downs of that and then you see other models get built and they've taken the same exact concept and copywriting and all of that and pricing and you just eventually got to just get over it. Yeah. You know and and for me um so much of of business is having staying power like you know how difficult the path that you've walked has been. It's not going to be any easier for the next person. Okay. They got a little leg up for knowing some equipment and whatnot but that's not they don't know what they're in store for. Like for us in the payment space, building an online payments platform when it like, you know, we make it look easy, just like you make what you do look easy, but we just know that they don't know what's behind the scenes. Yeah. And and there's just a deeper level of passion and vigor and mission behind what you do, that a copycat's never going to be able to to replicate. And so for anyone watching, especially if you're afraid of someone's taking your idea, like most likely it's going to happen. If you have a really good idea, someone's going to try to come copycat it, rip it off. But guess what? the the next month, the next year, they're going to be moving on to the next hot thing and the next idea. And so, just stay the path, stay the course, just find something that you know that you are going to obsess about and and provide a better level of service or better product than anyone else out there on the market. And the story behind it too, I think, is really powerful because a lot of times people just get into the business for the sake of money. So like the the heart is is not there. Mhm. And so they just think, oh, I can put some saunas and cold plunges in a room and, you know, it's just going to turn key like make money and I can chill at home and go on vacation and it's going to turn key make money for me. They realized really fast that it doesn't work that way. And we actually had a few centers around town that went out and tried to create their own version of what we were doing because they were also passionate about it, but it failed quickly and you know and then they had reached out to us and were like
they had reached out to us and were like uh you know are you interested in like buying this property now because you know we're in a tough spot and so that was interesting too. So yeah, I mean I'm just every day just learning, being humbled all the time, uh trying to be better, trying to find a good balance of how much energy to put in what basket, cuz that's like everything in entrepreneurship. Like you could be like gung-ho, ready to go, but be putting all the energy in the wrong basket, and then you're just not getting the the response and returns that you want. Yeah. So, I'm I'm always trying to figure out like where is my energy best spent and what's going to move the needle. Yep. We talk about that all the time, too. It's like everyone's looking for return on investment, but you have to have return on energy because oftentimes there's a lot of things that actually do make a return on investment, but it's not worth the effort that it uh the input that got that output, right? Um yeah, before we wrap up, for entrepreneurs out there listening, you know, you're an expert in uh you know, in the longevity space and the biohacking space. For someone that's just getting started, what are three tactical, practical things that someone can do to have the biggest output in feeling more vibrant, of having more energy that they could implement right away? I would say the number one thing that people could implement right away is like walking more. I really like noticed that when I was in Europe and you know there's always this talk about Europe about how healthy they are and what do they all have in common? They just walk a lot more than we do. And so, you know, you don't necessarily have to go sign up for the CrossFit class or, you know, uh, get a personal trainer, you know, all that's great, too. But if you could just get walking more, you know, 8 to 10, 000 steps a day, um, whether it's in your neighborhood or however you commute, like just find ways to walk more. Uh, the other thing is prioritize your routines. So, there's like really two routines that I think can move the needle for you. It's like what do you do when you first wake up? And that's
when you first wake up? And that's really important. What are you thinking about when you first wake up? You know, are you like stressing out immediately and running for the phone and responding to text messages or scrolling on Instagram and putting yourself in that state that's going to set the pace for the rest of your day. So like find a way to carve out time before you need to respond to the day. Like give yourself at least 30 minutes. Yeah. An hour is preferred, but at least 30 minutes uh before you start responding to the day or even just opening up Instagram or Facebook or any social platform like you know those are engineered to suck you in to deplete your dopamine. Yeah. To to get your attention and to have you stick there like this is scientifically proven. This is not a a conspiracy or or hypothetical. And so yeah, very smart people engineering that. Right. So even if you know the worst possible thing you can do is just wake up in the morning and grab your phone and get on social media. It's like it's the worst thing you can do. So So third thing what's one more practical thing that someone could do is the night routine. Yeah. And you know so everybody's worried about like people are starving for energy and they're having a hard time sleeping. Super common. You know ask anybody in your family they're going to fit into one of those categories. Not enough energy or not sleeping well which obviously impacts energy. And so if you are not carving out time at the end of your day to settle down, to get your nervous system to settle down, to get your brain waves to shift into those lower brain wave states, to get your body prepared for sleep, then you're going to have crappy sleep and then you're going to have crappy next day. And so I would say the easiest thing you could do is optimize your routine in the morning. You know, what you do when you first wake up, how you talk to yourself when you first wake up, like what actionable items you actually like you take, whether it's like getting a big glass of water and hydrating, going out into the sun, going for a walk, some
into the sun, going for a walk, some sort of activity to like wake the body up like in a good soft kind of way. And then settling down in the evening, which is uh getting the body prepared for sleep. And so that's like discipline, putting the screens away. If you're going to watch TV, you're putting on the blue light blocking glasses, um you know, reading a book, uh spending more time, you talking instead of texting, you know, like communicate within your own house. And I think those are like honestly the most important things. You know, obviously we spend a lot of time in our mind because of the type of nature of the work that we do here. It's mostly computer work. Pretty much every job's computer work in some way, shape, or form. And so if you're spending so much time in that logical, analytical thinking mind, you have to carve out time to get back into your body. And that could mean yoga for one person. If you're an older person, you're not ready for yoga. That could be going for a walk. If you're like into muscle building activities, you know, it could be getting that workout in. But you have to prioritize getting out of the head and into the body and u cultivating a practice of being more present in your life. I love it. Such great advice, such great wisdom. Michael, thank you so much for being on the SixFig podcast. For those of you tuning in, uh if you're here local in Arizona, go check out Optimize. They do day passes. They have memberships. Uh go get into the experience. Experience it for yourself. Uh for those of you tuning in, if you like this episode, drop uh some fire emojis in the comments below. Like, comment, subscribe, share it with somebody that you're building with. Uh the health side of being an entrepreneur is critically important to longevity of you in your business. Uh fulfilling your mission, fulfilling your purpose, and having the impact that you're meant to have in the world. Thanks so much for being here, Michael. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Transcript auto-generated by YouTube. Verbatim — duplicates intentionally preserved.
Cold plunges, saunas, and recovery tools matter. But the deeper value comes when people have a place to practice together, return consistently, and feel known.
Entrepreneurs often try to remove every stressor while living inside constant pressure. Deliberate cold offers a different lesson: meet stress in a bounded way, regulate, and carry that steadiness back into work.
A recovery practice becomes easier to sustain when it is shared. The room, the people, and the rhythm all reduce friction.
"The most useful protocol is the one that helps you return with more clarity, not more strain."
Start with a modest dose and let consistency do the work before increasing intensity.
Use breath as the anchor. If breathing becomes chaotic, reduce the exposure or end the session.
Pair stress with recovery: hydration, minerals, sleep, and enough space between demanding sessions.
