Transcript: Cold Plunging for Women: Dose, Context, and Community

Full transcript with clickable timestamps linking back to the source video.

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There's no need to do [music] 2-minute plunge. At 30se secondond mark, you're going to get the exact same physiological benefits as a full 2-minute plunge. Your business is your baby. Like, imagine you have a child. What are you going to say? We're not going to talk about the child [music] from 7: 00 p. m. to 9: 00 p. m. No. Like, that is part of your life now. Yeah. And it impacts everything in your life. And that's just the reality of it. After we leave the cold, our blood flushes back out and our body starts to the metabolize much faster because we want to [music] heat back up. So that's what we're feeling after we leave the cold. That burst of energy is that metabolism Hi guys, on today's episode I have Mel and Queenie from Alter in Toronto. Alter is an awesome contrast therapy studio that really focuses on approachable community. And I learned so much from these two about especially how women can be intuitive with their body and use contrast therapy strategically to enhance our health. I learned so much in this episode and I think you will too. Okay, Mel and Queenie, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the Healthspan Collective. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you. I'm so excited to talk with you both. We've gotten a little time before recording to dive into it a little bit. And we've been saying, Queenie, save it for the episode because you are so full of knowledge. I can't wait to unpack some of my contrast therapy questions. But before we get started, Mel, can you give us a little bit of a breakdown of your business? Yeah, of course. So, uh, it's me, my partner Tyler, and then our two close friends, Yuj and Ala. And we founded Alter, which is a sauna and Ice Bath Studio in Toronto right now with one

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location, but soon to be opening a second location in Leslieville, which we're really excited about. Wow. Um, and it all kind of started, I would say, I think it was 2021 or 2022. Okay. So, Yuja had gone to a popup sauna ice plunge space in the city and they fell in love with it immediately and naturally they brought myself and Tyler. We've been friends for almost a decade. Um, so we always do things together. Uh, so they brought us and I immediately fell in love with it as well. And when that popup shut down, we were looking for a space to continue this practice together. Okay. And we couldn't find one that resonated with us. Um, of course, there are spas. Uh, but they're very far. They're very expensive. They're like more of an indulgent one-time experience. You kind of have to take the day off work to get the most out of it. Uh there were also private sauna cold plunge suites which were nice but it kind of lacked that something special that you get when you do hard things with people. Yeah. Um and then the communal spaces that did exist were very narrowly focused. So for example, maybe they were very focused on athletic recovery or biohacking and that wasn't really something that we were looking for. It was more of like a fun thing that we did together to feel good, right? And so at the time, Yuge, who really wanted to start his own business, kind of turned to Aya and was like, "Why don't we just create our own space? Like, we can't be the only ones that are looking for something like this." Okay. And so, at first, it was just them two kind of working on this together. And they soon realized that it wasn't an easy feat. I think like any entrepreneur can relate. There's just so many moving parts. And I respect and I praise soul entrepreneurs because I don't know how they do it alone. Um, but that's why they approached myself and Tyler. Um, I think we all brought like complimentary skill sets.

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brought like complimentary skill sets. We all had a passion for the practice and so it was just kind of a natural fit. We also really trusted each other cuz we had such a solid friendship. Um, and it was just an easy yes from there like to do something that we were passionate about, something that was very fulfilling. I personally was very stuck in my corporate job and I was ready for a change. Oh yeah. So yeah, I was going to say, so you said you had really wanted to start his own business. Had the other three of you dreamed of being entrepreneurs or not really. I can speak for myself, which is no really like I ne I never thought I would be an entrepreneur to be honest. Um and what was your corporate job? I worked in strategy consulting and customer research. Okay. And I loved it and I think the corporate world is great. Like you learn a lot. you get exposed to so many different people, so many different industries. Like I learned so much every day. Um, but the thing that really bothered me about my corporate lifestyle, it wasn't necessarily like the burnout. I know a lot of people speak to like the number of hours that you're working. Like that never really bothered me. It was more of the impact that I felt I wasn't having in that role. Like I would spend so much time and effort uncovering really great insights about customers about what was happening in the industry and giving recommendations on how to adjust our strategy based on those findings. And really it would be this report that I would present and then it would just end up sitting on somebody's computer and no action would be taken. And it just felt really demotivating of like what am I doing this for? Yeah. Um so I when I had the opportunity to start a business with people that I really trusted. Yeah. I was like I have to take this opportunity because number one I'm passionate about the practice myself.

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passionate about the practice myself. Number two I still get to do the things that I love that I was currently doing at my corporate job. talking to customers, learning about them, understanding their attitudes, their needs, and kind of going from there. And three, actually having an an impact, like a direct impact. Somebody walks in, you can tell maybe they're a little bit down, maybe they're a little bit nervous. They go into the sauna, cold plunge, come out around the corner 90 minutes later, and it's like they're a totally different person. They have a smile on their face. They feel they look lighter. They have the post sauna glow. And it's like just that everyday impact that you see is so fulfilling. Like nothing can beat it. Yeah. It is. The fulfillment of being an entrepreneur for me is always worth the struggle of being an entrepreneur. Yeah. Yes. We'll get more. We'll get back to that more. The struggle is real. The struggle [laughter] is real. The struggle is real. But it is worth it for sure. Yes. And Queenie, you are the program director at Alter. Yes. Tell me a little bit about what that means. Um, so basically when Mel and I first met, um, we were introduced by her older sister, which is a great friend of mine, and she basically was like, "Oh, my younger sister is starting a business. Um, with some of her friends, they don't know, they don't have any experience in the wellness industry." And I've been in the industry from 2011 uh, till now and still in it. And um basically I am in charge of helping them create uh their classes and the flow of their dropins just like the um operational side of how we move our guests around the space as well as when they come in for a specific class whether it's upregulation or down reggulation of our nervous system. what type of movement or breath work or just kind of what uh programming that they're going to do when they're in the sauna or when they're in the cold plunge.

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when they're in the cold plunge. Okay. So, I'm going to Altter tomorrow. I haven't been yet. I'm so excited for the experience. But can people lead their own flows in Altter as well as join a class? So, there are two options. Okay. Um if you look at the schedule, we have something that's self-led. So that is where you can kind of use the space as you wish. And what is really special about Alter is that we have our self-led sessions that it's a big chunk of time. So if let's say you you go in at 1: 00 in the afternoon, you might you can stay there until like 6 5: 00 p. m. 5 or 6. So you have like a lot of leeway, a lot of time to be in the space. We're not going to kick you out. It's not going to be like just an hour you need to leave. Um or you will you can find various classes throughout the week. They're sprinkled throughout, but most of the programming are self-led because we want to empower our guests to use the space how they wish. And the classes are there to for a lot of our regulars actually just to um give them an idea of what else they can do in the space, right? So some of our classes will involve like self massages or different breathing uh techniques, different stretches. So that our some of our regulars will occasionally take a class just for um kind of refreshing their perspective on how to use the sauna or the cold pledge. I love that so much. And then your background. So you you do a little bit of everything. I'm so impressed and honestly jealous of all the training that you've done. But you are a yoga instructor, a an acupuncturist, like a traditional Chinese medi medicine medicine practitioner, acupuncturist, a raiki master. Mhm. Breath work and also sound healing practitioner. Breath work, sound healing, and now contrast therapy leader. [laughter] Amazing. How do you bring some of that training, your other trainings into your work at Alter? So um originally I'm not super wellversed in contrast therapy but

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very much um part of being a yoga instructor or a breath work um facilitator even an acupuncturist our main job is to shift someone's state of being. Mh. Basically, when someone walks into the space that I'm in, whether as a yoga instructor or an acupuncturist, they come in needing something or needing a shift and my sole job is to try to ensure that when they step away, when they leave that space, they feel a little better. So, that easily is transferable, I think, to multiple different modalities. So this time it's just using heat and cold and just um incorporating some of the other modalities that are you know ancient practices that are tried and true and people use all over the world and we're trying to incorporate them with the heat and with the cold and in a way that is respectful as well as not too overwhelming. So, one of the things I love working with Alter and the founders is that they really emphasize simplicity because the practice in itself, just sitting in the sauna is already such an impactful practice. You don't really need to add like 25 other things in there. Like really, it's just sitting learning to be in that discomfort of that heat. Sometimes sometimes the heat is not, you know, very easy to be in, right? And then just learning different tools to sit with that discomfort. In many ways, that's like a meditation. Yes, very much so. And we were talking a little bit before this and I asked about how your TCM training or because a background with TCM it's typically you're trying to stay away from cold and you were saying yes before alter I was not about the cold but tell me about how you feel now. Yeah, I find um that discord um between or discussion really between the modalities especially when we try to engage a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner in a discussion with cold. I find like most of the time you're most

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people are just met with like a brick wall of no, right? Like especially for women like never do this, never expose yourself to cold and why? And so there are I can go on for hours about this but um the main thing is when we are looking at so this type this medicine that I practice we really kind of observe nature we're part of nature as much as we like to build walls and insulation and have technology we're still pretty much part of nature we are we can't separate ourselves from the seasons from you know aging from everything that happens in nature we are part of it So, um, when you look at nature, for the most part, colder climates are a little more barren. There's less vegetation. There's less life forms there. And as mammals, we do need heat in order to survive. And if you look at our biology, our cells, etc., uh, they thrive under heat. We need some kind of thermal energy to for our blood to flow, for our cells to um, function properly. So the idea is that if we're exposed too much to the cold, we're constricting our blood flow. Our blood flow doesn't go to necessarily all of our cells or not enough blood flow gets there. Okay? And it also um affects especially for a woman their abil their fertile ability. So whether they if they want to have children for example to conceive uh we don't want to constrict blood flow especially towards the uterus. Okay. Yeah. And so that's a big topic of conversation right now in the wellness space is I'm sure you guys get asked this question all the time. I get asked it all the time because we also have conscious therapy at Pure Form, my um wellness center in Florida is I see on Instagram all the time women shouldn't be doing cold plunging. But what I say is it actually depends what phase of your cycle you're in. Mhm. What do you think? Yeah. So in a very general look at um

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women and their cycle, I totally agree with you. There are certain times uh during a woman's cycle is more we're more prepared to deal with the challenges of cold. So, I'm not I wouldn't say that like you should 100% stay away from the cold because firsthand and also seeing a lot of our um our clients, our guests that come through Alter and just seeing the change in their mental state and our mental health is so connected to our physical health as well. So, uh, I would say anything any kind of natural remedy or practices that can alter our mental state to bring us into a more just a happier, calmer state is going to be a practice that I would back. But also just understanding that we should respect these intense practices, these really high heats and really low cold temperatures. So um when it comes to this practice um really what we want to look at is the individual person. So from a TCM perspective we'll look at a woman or just a human being. If the one kind of rule of thumb you can kind of look through is that if a woman [snorts] is always cold, right? like even in the summer they're in a sweater or like just walking through maybe the mall that has a little bit of AC and they're like, "Oh, I'm like they're already getting a little chilly." Whereas if they looked around, everyone else is kind of like pretty comfortable with the temperature. That's one way to tell like that that type of body type or constitution. It's not the most suitable for cold plunging. without some type of supplementation or lifestyle changes cuz ultimately in a TCM TCM perspective we do want to have every person every body to be able to withstand cold and heat that's the sign of health right right so when someone is like oh a little bit of a drop in temperature they're already like shivering and they're really cold that something is wrong with their body there's something

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out of balance the yin and yang is out of balance they have too much yin and not enough yang so we need to supplement the yang first before exposing them to way more to so much cold. And the flip side would be the same thing as if like a person who gets hot all the time, we would recommend not doing as much sauna and cold would be a little better. And that's the same for a woman or a man. Okay? But for a woman, better to plunge during right after they bleed. So during the follicular and and alvulatory uh phases of their cycle those are the times where the body um has a bit more ability to face challenges. Um usually for a lot of women this is the phase where they feel like they have an uptick in energy in motivation and that helps them to kind of like um create this energy in the body to fight the cold if that makes any sense. Absolutely. It's really what you're saying of, you know, tuning into how resilient do you feel? Do you feel like you can withstand extreme temperatures today? Exactly. Or do you feel so depleted that that sounds like, "Oh my god, I want to die at the thought of that." If so, it's not for you today. Yeah. But typically most of us as soon as we finish bleeding and our follicular phase really begins and then all the way through ovulation which is typically around day 14 to 17 we h if you feel like you have that energy you have that resilience then it's a good day to be contrast therapying. Exactly. So like there's that like when in the cycle your body type your constitution do you tend to feel cold off more often or do you run hot and then on top of that we briefly mentioned this before is also like cold therapy can be really good in invigorating right we often in at alter we um would guide our guests to end in cold if they feel like they need that boost of energy for the rest of the day for example

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right um so that's the other thing when we expose expose ourselves to cold. What happens in the physiology is that our body thinks we are in danger and our blood goes into our core like goes right into our major organs to protect our major organs. [snorts] So that's also why we end up experiencing a lot of pain in our extremities and our hands and our feet just because there's no blood there. All the blood is going to protect the most important part of our body. We can live without arms and legs but we can't live without our heart or our lungs or our stomach. So when um this happens in the body, we after we leave the cold, our blood flushes back out and our body starts to the metabolize much faster because we want to heat back up. So that's what we're feeling after we leave the cold, that burst of energy is that metabolism like getting a kickstart to um try to warm up the body. So that's why we feel energized. We feel like we can just take on the world, right? But if the person is already depleted to begin with, they have no energy, like they're they're not eating well, they're not sleeping well, or they're eating but their absorption is not their digestion is not well, then like they're just pooping everything back out, right? Um they're running on like fumes. There's think of a car already without gas, right? So you put them through something that's really traumatic like a cold plunge. They're going to leave feeling even more depleted, right? versus there are times where we feel really tired, but it's only a sluggish feeling of like energy not moving in the body. Maybe we've like sat for too long in front of our desk, in front of our screens, and we just haven't moved and our blood hasn't been flowing. So, there's like this stagnation sensation, but energy is there. It's just trapped. And you then you do contrast therapy. You come out and you feel like a million dollars because you actually moved all of that stagnant blood and energy and now you come out and you feel I can do anything. I love that. Yeah. Once again, tuning in to what kind of tired are you feeling? What kind of sluggishness are you feeling? Is it that adrenal fatigue?

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Like my cortisol has just been pumping at fight or flight, and I have nothing left to give. Exactly. If so, you probably just need to get in bed an hour earlier tonight. But if it's I've been staring at a screen all day, I haven't moved my body, I've been sitting in meetings, and I just need that like oxygen and blood moving through me, then this is where contrast therapy would really serve you. and bring you more energy. 100%. I love that so much. Okay, speaking of sitting in front of screens and working a lot, Mel, how do you and your business partners split responsibilities? Because I love the way you talk about your partner and your business partners that you trust and love them. And it sounds like that has stayed from prior to you starting the business through now. But I know as a business owner that works with my partner and other partners, it typically takes some intentional work. What do you intentionally do to maintain your relationships? Um, I think having that friendship beforehand was really critical. Um, but also remembering to continue to nurture that friendship throughout. Yep. Um, at the beginning it was kind of all business talk, which definitely makes sense. I mean, it's your whole life. It's your baby. Yeah. Uh but making sure you're still carving out time to nurture that friendship. Um so if we're having like a tough day or we had a tough quarter, like okay, let's go and do something or like come over, we'll make some food, we'll throw on a terrible movie and like we'll just have fun and then the next day we'll hit the ground running again, right? But making sure you do take those moments to just like relax and remember why we did this in the first place. Yeah. Do you and Tyler have strict boundaries around around like we stopped talking about work at 7: 00 p. m. or anything like that? No. So, we actually tried that. Okay. We we at first put strict boundaries. We have a dog and we were like, "Okay, whenever we walk our dog, we aren't

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whenever we walk our dog, we aren't going to talk about work." Okay. Like, it's just going to be conversations about anything else but work. And we soon realized that was not possible. And then I was connecting with some of my other entrepreneur friends. And I I can't remember who told me this, but I it really stuck with me and they were like, "Your business is your baby." Like imagine you have a child. What are you going to say? We're not going to talk about the child from 7: 00 p. m. to 9: 00 p. m. No. Like that is part of your life now. Yeah. and it impacts everything [snorts] in your life and that's just the reality of it, right? And so why put these limitations and these rules in place because you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure and then you're going to feel bad about it, right? So we kind of removed any of those like hard and fast rules and instead now it's just like a simple clarification of hey, are you good if we like chat about this thing right now? Yeah. or are you good if we like problem solve and like ideulate on how to tackle this this challenge? Um, and it's okay to be like, you know what, I'm just not in that headsp space. Can we like take a beat and reconnect on that later? I love that. My partner and I do that too, my husband and I. Yeah, because Yeah, a lot of the times, especially nowadays, um, you guys are opening a second location soon, which congratulations. That's huge. Yeah. Um, but yeah, we just opened our second center and so most days he's at the new one, I'm still at the old one and we're not seeing each other until we're home at night, which on one hand I love love because we're not on top of each other, we're not, you know, we're both so passionate about the business that a lot of times if we're in each other's space too often, we do end up bickering more, which isn't my favorite obviously. Um, but now a lot of the times the first time we will have one-on - one time together is at home while we're cooking dinner and doing our whole, you know,

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dinner and doing our whole, you know, evening routine. And sometimes we do just have to say like, um, I don't have it in me to do do this right now. Let's block some time for ourselves to talk about this in the morning. Let's be intentional about it. Um, and sometimes I'm happy we're h we're both happy to talk about it at night, you know. Um, so once again, it kind of comes back to that like tuning in. Do I have it in me right now to do this or no? Because it can be the best thing that you can problem solve and just have things ready to go the next morning or the worst thing because then it's like infringing on your personal time together. Yeah. Absolutely. Everyone's so different and you need different things every day, right? So that's why kind of tying back to something Queenie said too like with the self-led sessions and empowering people with the information so they can kind of tune in, see what they need and then go from there but still feel supported along the way, right? Rather than giving this like prescriptive routine of you must do 10 minutes in the sauna, you must do two minutes in the plunge, Tyler, we must not talk about business on dog walks. those types of rules just don't work because the reality is it's just like it really depends on the day. Yeah. You have to flow with it. Yeah. Um it actually kind of I was listening to something yesterday about like your masculine and feminine energy and it's I struggle a lot because I I say I'm a Gemini. I'm like perfectly split type A type B. Like it depends the day, the minute, the hour if I'm more in a type B mode or a type A mode. And I never really attributed either to a masculine and feminine energy, but for me being in my type A mode is very masculine and my type B is very feminine. And I don't does that is is that part of TCM? For sure. 100%. That's the yin and yang. So very masculine. It's think of like heat energy moving non-stop. It like tends to rise. It's like like this thing

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tends to rise. It's like like this thing that just not stop. And then the yen is like a heavy heavier thing. It's cooler. It's the moon. It's like feminine. It's It likes to be slow. It likes to like take its time. So, and actually having both is so important rather than just the one. And like you said, I think we live in a very we do live in a very masculine society. And as women to survive in this world, we have to present this very masculine side in order to be heard, in order to be taken seriously. Um, but I think that's why we see a lot, like at least in my kind of like TCM field, we see a lot of this imbalancing showing up in a lot of women's bodies cuz they have to like shun their feminine side, shun that type B or like that like want that want and need to slow down, but totally ignoring it because we're fed this narrative since we're very young to be like productive and efficient and like, you know, every minute counts and do you deserve a break? Like, what? Right? So I think for you if you have that already innate in you like don't let it war it yourself like don't let it like you know butt heads too much like give in to one side when you feel like that's like when you're you sound like you're very in tune right with how you're feeling. So so like really kind of like go into that like don't deny your other side. Yeah. Well, that's what I've been struggling with. But it's actually been very helpful for me to attribute it with that masculine feminine because I'm aware that, you know, even I've been talking a lot about the fact that um my husband I want to start trying to conceive in a few months and I'm aware of the fact that I feel like I need to be more in my feminine to even like transition into that phase of life of like getting pregnant, becoming a mom. But it's stressful for me because I'm like but I want to keep my business growing. I want to keep moving at the same pace that I am. Um, so it's almost like my type B self gets mad that I'm that way and like I'm not more type A. But it's it is it's about learning to

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have peace with it and to lean in and to flow with it and even to realize during my different phases of my cycle, I'm going to be probably more productive in my follicular phase and want to slow down in my ludial phase. And so almost plan for that, you know, expect it. Mhm. I love that. How did you guys come up with the name Alter? My gosh, it's so funny. It was actually so tough to come up with a name. I remember we would spend hours brainstorming. Yeah. And nothing was sticking, but the first time alter was mentioned, it just immediately felt right. Okay. And at first it was very straightforward, like you're alternating between the hot and cold. Uh but then when you sit with it a little bit longer, it just became more symbolic. Yeah. Like you're altering your state of mind, your body, your perspective, maybe even like your connection with self, connection with others. And for some people, it also is very spiritual. So when they hear altar, they think of like the alternate spelling alt t. Oh, like worshiping at an altar. Uh which makes sense. So I mean like again everyone takes different things from this practice. So I kind of liked how it was like multiaceted in that way and then it also connected with our brand ethos really well. We were really inspired by Finland [clears throat] specifically. That's where we went to get a lot of inspiration. We tried so many different sound there. Oh cool. And I just loved the simplicity of the practice over there. Like it was about getting a really good sweat, a really good shiver and good company. Like there was no performance. There was no frrills and it was really beautiful in that way. And it really is a part of everyday life there. Like it's as if you know it's like a cup of coffee in the morning or like brushing your teeth. It's just second nature. People do it daily. Okay. Even maybe multiple times a day

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Even maybe multiple times a day really like with their families, with their co-workers, after a run. Yeah, it's just like ingrained in their life and it's part of the culture. Like that's how it's been for centuries. Um, but what I love about it is it's the consistent practice that is going to result in some sort of change, right? And so kind of our ethos or our tagline, I guess, is power in practice. That's really when you're going to uncover the power is not just doing this once, going to a spa when you're like super burnt out and then you don't go for another 6 months, right? It's like the little things showing up day after day, those small alterations that you make to your routine, to your lifestyle, that's going to build into something bigger. I love that. So, that's kind of what we really try and and bring with Alter is how do we create an experience, an atmosphere where people feel like they can do this practice once a week, twice a week, and really make it a part of their lives because that's when you're going to see the impact. Right. Oh, I love that. so much and I love that you all went to Finland together and that sounds so fun to do research. I loved it. I think we did like 10 different saunas maybe like really always once a day, sometimes twice a day and it just felt so good. And are they just like everywhere? Like like there's just so many different places to try it. Yeah, I don't remember the statistic, but I think it's like there are more saunas in Finland than there are cars. Really? Yeah. or something something crazy like that. Yeah, it's just oh my god like the highest in the world. Yeah, that's amazing. I loved I was recently in Ireland. My husband's family is from a town called Canail and um I think it's Cork County in Ireland and obviously so it's a coastal town. It's like a boat. It's like a marina town and on the beaches everybody like d gets in the ocean and then there's saunas like up on

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land. So because Ireland is cold most of the year they're like cold plunging in the ocean and then coming up and getting right in the sauna. And I was like, "Oh, is there like a membership or people like how are people paying for this?" And they were like, "No, it's just what are you talking about? [laughter] It's for the community, right? Like that's the ocean. It's the ocean and then the the community sauna of course and I was like I love this. It was so I know not North American culture, you know. I know. It's amazing. And the sauna in Finland and in many cultures, it's like a space where your socioeconomic status, your hierarchy, like all of that stuff dissipates and like everyone is kind of at that same level which allows for such a great sense of community, right? And it's not like you have to go there and, you know, meet 10 new friends. Like sometimes you are just still being introspective and just focused on your own practice. But just knowing that like you're surrounded by good people can also be really comforting. I love that so much. All right, adding Finland to my list. Like I need to go. Um, speaking of cultural influence, I was telling you guys earlier I love visiting Toronto. I think this is my third time this year being here. Um, it's such a multicultural city. Is there anything you have pulled from the culture of Toronto and Canada to that shows up in Alter? Yeah, I mean, I feel like Alter is really shaped by like the neighborhoods that we're in. So, obviously, we're in like the College West neighborhood. I'm even sure our second location in Leslieville might have some differences, right? depending on like what is valued in that neighborhood, what the culture is in that neighborhood. And I think it's so important because for us like we really want to be known as this neighborhood sauna. Um kind of like the local watering hole. Like everyone just like gathers at the sauna, catches up with a friend, unwinds

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after a tough workday. And to be a neighborhood sauna, like you do have to be ve very woven into the local neighborhood. Yes. And so we partner with a lot of small businesses. We do a lot of events, um, a lot of partnerships. We bring in local artists for music nights. Yeah. We also have like artwork, books, products from like a bunch of different Toronto creators. Um, and that's been really fun. I feel like the best part of the job and one thing that I didn't even foresee was like meeting so many different entrepreneurs and getting to know people and their different passions. Um, but yeah, we're always open to just adding things, iterating based on what we're seeing taking place in the neighborhood. I love that. That's one of my favorite parts about my business as well is getting to meet other entrepreneurs and even just thought leaders in the space in the wellness community. It's just so inspiring and empowering. Mh. To the more people I meet, I feel like the more passionate I get about it. Yeah. And you you just end up learning so much. Yeah. Like more recently, I started doing hair oiling in the sauna. Oh, okay. which I learned from um a close friend who has like an aryveetic um brand with like a bunch of different ritual oils, naval oils, things like that. Oh, I love that. And I've been struggling with like hair thinning and hair loss. Oh, okay. And so I I realized like, okay, let me try hair oiling. And then I found out from her that heating the oil makes it more like enriching for your scalp. And so now it's something that I weave into my sauna routine. So I feel like I don't I'm always just like learning different things, different traditions and it's really great. Like it again it's so personalized. You can learn so much and like tweak it based on what you're going through.

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I love that so much. Oh, you'll have to give me her name. Yeah. And the company info. Yeah. I love Ayurvedic practices. I can never pronounce the cut this out, but I can never pronounce the word. Yeah. Ayurvedic. Auvedic. That's at least how I pronounce it. You did fine. [laughter] Yeah. Um, speaking of the community, do you guys have any special community stories like from community members that you could share of just shifts they've felt in their well-being as taking place in their altar ritual? Yeah. I think kind of going back to the brand ethos that I was talking about around like small shifts daytoday. Yeah. I can't necessarily say there's been like one life-changing plunge where like a person had this like transcendent experience coming to alter once. But I think what's really impactful is I think of like one member who comes almost every day. Okay. And it's been almost a year and a half of him coming every single day. And seeing like the change of when he first came in to like yesterday when I last saw him and also seeing him go through like tough things in his life, using this practice to kind of ground him and help him process his emotions and then coming out feeling so much better. But again, I think it's it's just like the small interactions that you witness like even people meeting each other. I've seen people like exchange phone numbers. I'm like, "Oh, that's so like it gives me so much fulfillment that we're like creating a space where people can meet others and form new relationships and also just learn about themselves." Yeah, I love that so much. Um, what advice would either of you have for someone who's looking at you, Queenie, and saying, "I want to be I want to practice the way that you practice. I want to do I want to be a wellness practitioner for my career. But say

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practitioner for my career. But say they're they're they feel a little bit stuck in a corporate job. What would your advice be? H [laughter] It's been a while since I had to really think about this, but uh No, but actually I do get like asked that quite often. Even just like in in all the different spaces I'm in because I most of my students in yoga or patients in TCM or guests at alter for example a lot of people are in the corporate space and then they kind of look at like what I'm doing be like wow like that's so amazing I want to similar to what Mel was saying you know make an impact something that's more than just maybe you know do having your work end up sitting on someone's computer right um and I don't want to sugarcoat it. I usually try not to sugarcoat it too much. It's still like Mel said or just like it's still a being an entrepreneur like we don't like I'm a contractor everywhere. Like I I teach at multiple studios. I'm at different clinics, different, you know, spaces. And ultimately, you know, I my partner is also in the same space. Um, yeah. And it's similar to like trying to have those boundaries of like when we walk the dog, we're not going to talk about work, but it ends up being like work permeates so many aspects of your life. And so I usually tell like if someone is wanting to transition, I kind of bring it to light where it's like, are you [snorts] okay with a lot of uncertainty, a lot of instability, at least in the beginning, right. And it's like are you like if you really this is something you really really want to do, I would I'm 100% backing this. I would support you. I like answer any questions you would have. [snorts] It's just that you have to be ready that like what you see some people in their success. It's like it didn't happen overnight, right? Lots of years of taking trainings of you know teaching maybe free classes in the yoga space or like you know things like that where it's like nobody knows who

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you are. the space is already saturated with a lot of um people and not to discourage anyone from coming into the space but it's just it doesn't always look I think sometimes uh social media as well kind of like makes trainers and everyone feel seem like their life is really really easy and I work with a lot of trainers too like the different spaces where a lot of us and especially women like we're really burnt out in a way because like the only way to make it is again being really masculine take on you know 20 30 classes a week in order to make it in a city. So, [snorts] it's like this is can be a wonderful change for a lot of people, but you still have to it's it's still a lot of hard work, but it's very rewarding. And if it's this is the type of work you're willing to [snorts] work very hard for, 100% would recommend. Yeah, just start. There will be a lot of instability in the beginning. Yes, it definitely takes some getting used to and some comfort. And I think you know being a contractor you are an entrepreneur like it's the amount that you make is very dependent on how much you work you know which there's no p paid vacation no one sends you anywhere you know like if you want to go somewhere it's like out of pocket the moment you stop working you don't get paid right so it's like um a lot of that if you're if someone is very used to just having that stability and security like this is something they have to be okay with not having for a while at least. Yeah. I really appreciate you sharing that honesty cuz it is I think social media can definitely kind of glorify the you know especially working in the wellness world and I have people say to me all the time like how wonderful you get to come to work somewhere where you know you they I think they think of it cuz sometimes that's the way I accidentally make it look on social media is like I'm doing hydrogen therapy while I'm on a call. while I'm have the compression boots on while I'm t I'm typing emails and they're like it looks amazing and I'm like little do you know

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I slept for 5 hours last night which makes me feel like crap, you know, like because I just like I I do I accidentally burn myself out and it's easy to do as when you and that's a side that isn't really shown that often. I've had people come to us and say, "Oh, how nice is it like to like they basically insinuate that we have no stress in our life because especially if we're in like a yoga space, we're always well, I mean, we still live a life. My partner and I, we still fight like our dog passed, right? In the past, you know, like things, we're still regular humans, but then the difference is like us as professionals in our space. When we step into that space, we leave all of that behind because we're in service of other people." And so on the outside, everyone always looks at us all and being like, "Wow, like how nice it is. Is it to live a life that's like so stressfree and like all you do is just, you know, get these treatments or like how hard is it to lead someone to do some movement or whatever it is?" And they don't see the flip side of like how much work goes into it and how much we put aside in order to serve other people and to show up and perform. Yeah. It's the most, you know, you think you have to be on in a meeting or a presentation, try teaching 20 or 30 classes a week. Like, talk about draining and and needing to know how to really care for yourself to sustain a schedule like that. Like, it is of utmost importance. Truly. Mhm. And you like at your businesses or you're at the front desk and you're seeing people like you got to smile and welcome people no matter what's happening in your life. Oh, yeah. People always ask like, "Oh, you must do sonocal plunge every day." Like, "You must always be in the space doing a session." And it's really hard to [snorts] find that separation. Like when I am at altar, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it, but it's really hard to like do a session and not notice, oh, this needs fixing or like

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hearing somebody say something and be like, okay, that's good feedback. I want to bring this to the founders and like idea and brainstorm how to fix that. And then I end up accidentally going on work mode when this is supposed to be my relaxation time. And so working in the wellness space can be tough because your wellness is your work. It's really hard to find that separation sometimes, but I think people automatically assume like, oh, you're in the wellness space, so you must be stressree all the time. No, [laughter] I know. It's so funny that you say that because I I like almost accidentally find myself gravitating towards the wellness practices that I don't offer at my clinics. Like I love to do the stuff that we do at our clinics. Um because I think they're all really like we incorporated them all for a reason. It was cuz I loved all those treatments, but I also acupuncture is one that comes to mind. I love going to acupuncture because I don't offer it. We don't offer it. So, I'm not even taking inventory of like I should do this or we should do that. Don't get me wrong, actually, I still do that of like, oh, their lobby smells really good and it's a really peaceful vibe. We should incorporate more of that and make sure that, you know, everyone's peaceful and nobody's like scurrying around looking like they're stressed. But beyond that, once I'm in the treatment, I'm like, "Okay, I'm not comparing this red light bed to my red light bed. I'm not comparing this, you know, whatever it is. Cold plunge. It's actually nice to like come outside of what I do. Um, so that it's not you're not in work mode. Yeah. Exactly. Where do you see Alter 5 years from now? We definitely want to open up more locations. I think our goal is to make hot and cold part of everybody's routines. um again being inspired by the Finnish way of life and sauna just being embedded in their everyday lives.

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Obviously in Toronto like we're we're a ways away from that but I see it moving in that trajectory. So we definitely want to position ourselves to be there when that happens. So opening up in more communities. Uh right now we are thinking more you know Canadian focused but there's always a world where we expand beyond borders. Um and still doing it in a way where we retain that neighborhood vibe. Again embodying a neighborhood sauna being that local watering hole. making sure that we're immersing ourselves and we're shaping the alter experience based in [snorts] what community we're thriving in at that time. So yeah, I mean who's to say? I definitely want to open up more locations. I don't know the exact number, but it will be more. [laughter] I love that. I love that so much. One word that we always say to ourselves is approachability. Simplicity is another one, too. Queenie was kind of touching on this, but I feel like it's so common practice to just add more and more to your routine and the more the better. And like with cold plunging, I have, you know, we have guests being like, "Oh, I did a 10-minute plunge today." And I'm like, "Why would you do that?" But it's because we automatically think like, "Oh, more is better." And we're really embracing simplicity of like, "Actually, let's like strip down our routines. Let's remove things. Instead of having like a 20step skinare routine, have a three-step skinare routine. And do the thing that you're focusing on really well and excel in it. Um, so do the hot really well, do the cold really well, and also create an approachable space because the practice is very intimidating. So, how do we make it less intimidating? How do we make it inviting? How do we train our staff so

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that they're there to support you, but they're not overbearing? They're not telling you what to do because again, everybody has unique needs. Um, how do we make the space feel homey? Like featuring local artists? Um, having our community members donate plants, donate knickknacks and books and things like that. Like all these little details really add to the element and the atmosphere of creating a very approachable space. And then through that you're able to make it a part of your everyday life cuz it doesn't feel like something that you have to like put in your calendar and plan in advance for. It's just like you wake up, I want to do a sauna and cool plunge. Great. I'm going to walk over to Alter. Love it. Yeah. What I was um what I'm really proud of like seeing how as Alter has like from conception is like when we the space first opened we had like a people from all over the city that would come people who are brand new and then we also got a lot of people that would go to our competitors or had or have had experience cold plunging. And we would see often times this energy of u people coming in almost like competitive in like how long they can plunge. speaking of like a 10-minute plunge. And over time, through just like trying like through just insinuating [snorts] through the alter culture and through like our staff or facilitators, everyone who's working there, we somehow managed to like really kind of calm everyone down when they come into that space. Even if like maybe their initial plunge, everyone's like, "Oh, like they're trying to get like one up each other, right?" Like the vibe there is that like that is not what we do. And it's like it's cool you can do that, but like that doesn't matter. It's not like how long you're plunging. We're really just focused on like how good do you feel? I love that. Regardless of like it's 10 seconds and you've come out, you still feel amazing. We're going to celebrate you. You know, like it doesn't matter if it's 10

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seconds or 10 minutes. Ideally, not 10 minutes, but it's like it's just this like vibe of like we don't need the excess. You just need what you need today. And I think that the Alter team has done really well in like having that as part of the culture. Yeah. It's not flashy. It's not for someone who hasn't done contrast therapy or is new to it, what is the ideal number of minutes or seconds to do? What's the range that you would consider generally beneficial? Right. So for for the hot for example depending it all depends on the temperature of the tubs and your the sauna itself um in general we would recommend like 10 to 15 minutes in a sauna and that what we want to achieve there is to raise our internal core temperature and to create a false fever in the body and that's when our uh heat shock proteins start to activate. So there's a lot of like technical terms but basically uh it improves our immune response and it improves our cells uh mitochondria function. [snorts] So just functioning of our cells right and then when we're talking about like for a beginner in the cold plunge like science tells us like the first 30 seconds if you make it past 30 seconds it's the same amount of dopamine release and everything else as if you stayed for a full 2 minutes. So what we tell our guests often is like especially those who are very nervous with the cold or they've tried it before and have felt like they failed at it because they didn't get guidance. They didn't know what to do. You try to like muscle your way through, grit your teeth through the cold. It's incredibly hard. And so getting guidance will make it a little easier learning how to breathe through it. But we always tell our guests like there's no need to do 2-minute plunge. At 30 secondond mark, you're going to get the exact same physiological benefits as a full 2-minute plunge. The only difference is that if you're staying for the 2 minutes, you're building this mental resilience. Like you're learning to breathe through this

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full 2 minutes, dealing with that discomfort longer, but phys physiological effect is the same. That is so helpful to know because I feel like after 30 seconds, I almost go numb anyway. Yeah. And it is more about the mental state, but to know the physiological benefits after 30 seconds, you're good. Yeah. Okay. That's relieving. All right. We are short on time, but I want to do a quick rapid fire with you both. So, if you had to choose one, sauna or cold plunge? Sauna? [laughter] Sauna. Fair. Matcha or coffee? Or neither? Matcha. Coffee. Okay. [laughter] Favorite Toronto restaurant for a healthy meal? Don't you dare take that. You go first. [laughter] I was going to say a good f place like Golden Turtle on Ozington. Oh, I'll have to try that. So good. After you come to Alter, you should totally go get fur. It's like the perfect way to end off a hot and cold session. That is so [laughter] perfect. Like after cold plunging especially or like contrast therapy, one of the best things to have is carbs. Oh yeah. Why? Because you like especially when you do both it's you burn so much and um car like your body like to replenish quickly you have big carb meal and sodium carb. Yeah. Carb carb and sodium. So make sure you you hydrate. So a bowl of fur is actually literally perfect. cuz you get the noodles and the the broth is made. It's a bone broth that they make for like like at least 12 hours of like lots of bones. Um lots of herbs and spices in it. So, it's actually Yeah. Perfect. Oh, I will be doing that. That sounds exactly like what I need. Mhm. So, my pick was [laughter] going to be the same thing, but you know what? Actually, I have another fur place which is really close to our new location. It's called Quiring. Um, so it's just

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Yeah, it's just on Gerard [snorts] and it's again like really it's like a hole in the wall. Both places are a hole in the wall, familyowned. Um, and like the broth is like so nourishing just like uh Golden Turtle. So So they're both bone broth based. Yeah, bone broth. I love that. Mhm. So full of collagen and Yeah. So good for your gut. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. A current wellness trend you love verse one that you could live without. Um, what do I love? I love recently I've been um drinking like collagen, liquid collagen, and putting it in my water in the morning. And I feel like it also motivates me to drink water in the morning cuz at first I would just go straight for my coffee. But now I'm like, "No, I'm going to have my glass of water and maybe like eat some nuts and then I'll have my coffee." So I love that. I definitely feel a lot better now in the morning. One thing I don't love, which kind of speaking to this like adding so much to your routine, more is better belief, that typically isn't true. Um, what's up with like all the things people are putting on their head and their face before they go to bed [laughter] and then like when they get up in the morning, it takes 15 minutes to like take everything off. I'm like, I don't know what's going on. I [snorts] just close my eyes and go to [laughter] bed. No, truly it is. We are doing the most. [laughter] And I know I've been like talking about like I'm like I feel like I need to start face taping. I feel like pressured, but it's also like I want to stop getting Botox um and all of that, but I'm like I got to do something. But I feel the same way. I'm like I don't feel like applying all this stuff and then I need to take it all off in the morning. What's it called? The morning shed. You got to like take like how about we just get a good amount of sleep. Yeah, I agree with that. We've gone overboard that

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I agree. We've gone overboard. We need balance. Yeah. Um for me would be I guess it's very uh in a TCM lens, but I love to see more of like facial gouacha that kind of thing to like cuz it it is very it's you know not just the aesthetic aside of like trying to lift the face etc. But like I hold so much tension in my face. I mean most of us actually don't realize like if you ever gotten like a head massage or a face massage, you know how like you just like melt into it. We actually hold so much tension around the eyes especially um for us like looking at screens often etc. Um so like cupping gouacha after when I do it I just feel so good and it really helps me sleep. So like don't do the 50 steps of other stuff, but if you're going to do like one or two things, like I would definitely recommend like some kind of like just facial massage like you can do yourself. You don't need tools. You can use your fingers, right? Yeah. Those all of the extra stuff isn't fully necessary. Um and then maybe one of the Ayurvedic oils. Yeah, exactly. And then simple a little few less steps. Yeah. Mhm. Um and something I'm not that into also very TCM perspective um smoothies. Yeah. Just like too much cold. Again, it's cold in coming into the body. Yes. And so like more fan of the broths and like warm ming especially in Canada we do have like a long winter and it drives me insane when I walk around and I see people drinking like cold like iced coffees and smoothies and it's like middle of winter and it's snowing. I'm like, "Aren't you already cold?" At least a little bit. I drank a smoothie for breakfast for years and wondered why I had gut issues. Like, it just It's so funny. Like, my my gut just wasn't healthy. That's what's healthy. Yes. So, we don't even consider that. We're thinking of like we that's like almost a blind spot cuz we're like this smoothie has x amount of nutrients, vitamins, etc. It's coldressed,

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vitamins, etc. It's coldressed, whatever. and like no nutrients has been leeched from it. So we don't even consider that at all and we look at every other thing that we're doing except that one first thing that we're h most of us are having in the morning. Right. That's a really good one. Um if you had a free day with no work, how would each of you spend it? I would read. I love fantasy novels. Oh, okay. So, I would read um I would spend a lot of time with my dog, with Tyler, going for a really long walk and just seeing what's up in the neighborhood. I find there are so many great markets, especially in the summer in Toronto, like so many thrift stores and like flower markets and things like that. So, I would just take it really easy. Have no concrete plans. Yes. read a book, go on a walk, see what's up, peruse stores. Yeah, just a very chill day. Love that. I love like a slow morning. That's like my ultimate like not having to rush out of bed, get ready, and like run out the door. So, like just morning, I don't drink matcha in the morning, but I'll drink like warm like honey, ginger. I was going to say you do like a ginger tea. Yeah, definitely. to help like with the digestive fire in the morning. So just like very slow like not [snorts] I don't like being rushed like even though I am like I do have a type A side of me like when I get going but like just like that thing in the morning when I feel like I get I have to rush out the door it kind of sets a tone for the rest of my day. Yes. So on my day you it's especially on my days off like my morning is like a slow threehour thing where like I'm just super slow moving and like just listening to the rhythm of the body and not rushing to go anywhere else and then from that it's just like whatever I feel like after that's my favorite thing too and like to go take get a treatment

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somewhere similar try to turn off my brain and not be like trying to learning learn from another practitioner but it's just like for myself just trying to relax and like receive leave. Yeah, that would be like Yeah, one of the perfect days off. [snorts] Yeah. Um, okay, the last one. What is one book or podcast that has impacted you most? [laughter] [gasps] I'm going to be totally honest. I am a fiction girly and I'm like a fun podcast girly, but I think like a crime junkie. Awesome. like what's your f cuz like you have to turn off like you know and I think it's so important and I think there's plenty that we can learn from fiction and fun in the world as well. Yeah. So like every time I get this question I feel this pressure to like mention a self-help book and I'm like no like that's not I no tell me your favorite fantasy novel. Well I'm reading the Throne of Glass okay uh series right now. Now I just started it and I'm really excited like heading into fall having a really good series to get into. I also recently joined a book club which has been so fun. I highly recommend joining joining a book club, meeting new people. Yeah, you have just like similar interests that you can bond over. So the book that we are reading for book club is not the best though. But it's okay cuz then you you bond over how much you dislike it. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I love that. Queenie, um mine I I really love your answer actually, Mel, because it's like it's so important to not always feel like you're like reading for productivity or doing something for productivity. And I'm definitely like as much as I do try to slow down. That is one aspect that I do struggle with sometimes, especially when it comes to reading. Like my iPad has like a hundred books on like non-fiction, all on like medicine and things like that. And it's just like I start I have like it all says like 10%

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2% red. Like it's it's all so scattered and it's so horrible. Um and I do love fiction, but the the book that comes to mind is um actually very apt what we're talking about today. It's called In the Flow by Alyssa Viti. Yes. Yeah. So she like when I first read the book, it was like a big change in perspective on the female body. So it's basically about our cycle and like how we can live in harmony, how we can eat in harmony with the cycle and like the difference between men and women or at least male bodies, female bodies. Like the male run on a 24-hour cycle in terms of their hormones and how they feel. it's can be replicated a dayto day 24 / 7 whereas a woman or female body is not so much um dictated by a 24-hour cycle. It's more of like our moon cycle or our menus or 28 dayish cycle. And that really that actually kind of pushed me towards more of like uh Eastern medicine TCM. I love that book as well. I recommend it often, especially when women are getting off hormonal birth control, 100% and they're looking to learn how to tune into their cycle, how to um uh what's it I want to say neutrify, nourish themselves. [laughter] Neutrify is a good word could be a word. Yeah. How to That's a brand name. [laughter] It is. How to nourish themsel um for any micronutrients that may have been depleted. Um it's a really good one. Yeah. I think she has one on menopause as well. Oh, good to know. Okay. Thank you both so much for being here. Where can people find you? Well, definitely follow our social media. It's alter. Toronto. Okay. I'm not really on social media myself. Okay. Um, so you can't find me there, but I do manage Alter's social channels. So, if you send us a DM there, it will be me answering.

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answering. Awesome. And Queenie. And on uh Instagram's just my name, Queenie. Q U E N I E. Fair. P H A I R. Just one word. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you guys. Have a great day. Thank you.